Legal concerns about alcohol in ganache

[YetiChocolates]

1 hour ago, Tri2Cook said:

That's exactly what I would have thought as well. If you're eating the chocolate in it's entirety, then isn't the entirety of the chocolate the total volume? I can't imagine anybody is digging one layer out at a time and eating them individually. 

 

Agreed, and you would have to buy a very large amount and scoop out the ganache to eat it to even attempt at getting drunk on the ganache.  A minor would have an easier time stealing booze from their parents.

[DJ Silverchild]

2 hours ago, YetiChocolates said:

 

So that is where it gets tricky IMO because according to the enforcement agent it doesn’t matter because it’s abv, but I think it should matter because as you’re eating the whole chocolate it gets diluted by the other components of the chocolate itself...

 

I’m chatting with a lawyer next week who’s pretty dialed on the LCB laws and will be contacting someone on the LCB that isn’t the enforcement agent so hopefully I’ll be able to find a reasonable solution to this problem. 

 

That's ridiculous and I bet you're lawyer will take care of it.   It should be the % of alcohol itself in the entire recipe.  Good luck and I'll keep an eye out for updates.

[pastrygirl]

I sent this query to my brother who is not currently practicing as a lawyer but who has passed the bar in 3 states, and he said go by what is current according to WA legislature, the 1% specified here.  https://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=66.12.160

Don't worry about what was repealed, that no longer exists, and the federal 0.5% only applies in states that have not made their own rules.

 

I agree that it sounds like BS that he wants to examine every component separately, and no layer can have more than 1%.  The product is a finished piece, and sounds like yours are normal small bonbon size.   Is he some kind of fanatical teetotaler?

 

[Tri2Cook]

7 hours ago, pastrygirl said:

Is he some kind of fanatical teetotaler?

Sounds more like some wiener with a power complex who finally managed to get himself into a position with some degree of authority and is doing his best to flex it at every opportunity. 

[YetiChocolates]

On 2/22/2019 at 11:49 AM, YetiChocolates said:

I’m chatting with a lawyer next week who’s pretty dialed on the LCB laws and will be contacting someone on the LCB that isn’t the enforcement agent so hopefully I’ll be able to find a reasonable solution to this problem. 

 

 

Just wanted to post a little update to this saga.  I did speak with a lawyer, and in his mind, since the LCB hasn't contacted me yet regarding this, it's in my best interest to fly under the radar and not "poke the bear" as he liked to say.  He does feel I have a good case and I'm doing the right thing (pulling all chocolates with alcohol, getting chocolates tested, etc), but until the test results come back, we sit and wait...

 

Well the analytical company called me and said that they would need to send the chocolates off to get tested rather than being able to do it in house, and that it would cost $250 - per sample! Now I'm sure I could find someone else that might be able to do this, but that really knocked the wind out of my sails and had me asking whether this fight is really worth all the money I might be spending (as the lawyer is $200/hour, luckily the first call was free).

 

So for now I think it's Washington State - 1 Yeti Chocolates - 0. 

 

I just bought some trablit to sub for Kahlua in my Smith n' Wesson and will omit all of my chocolates containing alcohol (or omit the alcohol from the formulas) for the time being.

 

I also did receive an email from the LCB enforcement agent yesterday stating that the permit he wants me to acquire is based on https://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=66.12.170 , which is essentially a permit to even be able to purchase alcohol to use in confections.  The fee is $10. @pastrygirl have you heard of this permit before and do you have it? For now since the fee is so nominal I'll just get it so I can get him off my back, as I probably will reintroduce alcohol back into my chocolates at some point, and just add it during the "cooking process" so they feel better that it's burned off.  And I"m sure in his mind I will need this permit to even acquire vanilla extract, even though you can purchase this without being 21 🙄

 

If nothing else I guess I've learned a lot about how shitty my math skills (which I already knew but were affirmed) are when trying to calculate how much alcohol is in a piece of chocolate, and the evaporation rate and temperature for alcohol when cooked.  At least I feel I will be able to answer this question much more thoroughly and "politically" in the future.

 

 

[pastrygirl]

I have a vague recollection from early in my career of needing some permit or license number for the very occasional liquor store runs.  It was a coffee shop, so we didn't have a liquor license, any spirits would have been used in layer cakes.  I worked in restaurants with full bars for so long it fell of my radar, and it's really not something that anybody talks about - the county health dept doesn't care, and the FDA food labeling guide doesn't mention alcohol.  And yes, it seems ridiculous when I have vanilla extract at 35% alcohol and lemon extract that's much higher!  I don't have the license now, but sounds like I should, especially if I can save on the sales tax!.  I tried to buy a bottle of something at Restaurant Depot once and they wouldn't let me because I didn't have a license, being able to buy liquor at wholesale prices would be nice, i might use more

 

Sounds like I should add a sticker saying 'contains less than 1% ABV' to my one product where it applies, or if I make boozy bonbons for Mothers' Day.  I have all my food allergens labeled but didn't know I needed to call out alcohol.  I have had a couple of people ask about alcohol at events, but far fewer than the vegans or any food allergy.

 

I definitely agree with not poking the bear, but I think the bear is poking you. The license to produce goods with more than 1% alcohol might actually be worth it for you in the long term if you have a couple of good winery customers or want to go after all the craft distillers in the state and produce their custom whisky bonbons.  You could corner the market - now we know why nobody else is doing it!  

[YetiChocolates]

On 2/28/2019 at 8:32 AM, pastrygirl said:

I have all my food allergens labeled but didn't know I needed to call out alcohol.  I have had a couple of people ask about alcohol at events, but far fewer than the vegans or any food allergy.

 

I definitely agree with not poking the bear, but I think the bear is poking you. The license to produce goods with more than 1% alcohol might actually be worth it for you in the long term if you have a couple of good winery customers or want to go after all the craft distillers in the state and produce their custom whisky bonbons.  You could corner the market - now we know why nobody else is doing it!  

 

Yeah, labeling alcohol was not on my radar either and not something my inspector mentioned to me either, though he thoroughly went through my labels...

 

I would bet 90% of WA state chocolatiers don’t have the permit to obtain alcohol or know of its existence. 

 

As for getting the manufacturing permit, we’ll see, but getting a that corner of the market is definitely an intriguing idea...specialty wine chocolates in Chelan valley alone may be worth it!

[Francois Royal]

Ive read your post and all replies! it was so much great to see all the supports regarding your case. Am really enjoying this forum, here is what you gonna do, I had two of the same cases from businesses I've consulted in France and Canada and problem was solved. 

 

1- when you advertise for your chocolate wine finished product dont set it as wine chocolate or alcoholic chocolate - only take the name of the wine and present the bonbon in relation of the wine name - example:

(CONCANNON - PINON NOIR TRUFFLES or TRUFFLES WITH HINT OF CONCANNON - PINON NOIR)

Dont use (red wine CONCANNON - PINON NOIR TRUFFLES or CONCANNON PINON NOIR TRUFFLES 0.3% alcohol).

by doing so you are clamming the name for the chocolate and that's it. and they got nothing against you! and lets say they are going far to do the paper work and find your chocolate has alcohol, claim it as Sorbitol , which is used for ganache making for shelf life conservation and it does contain alcohol (which personally I use).

Let the winery you work with express it as wine but when anyone ask you or at your shelf display name it as Ive showed you above, and call it flavor if you are talking to clients. Done!

 

what you are doing here is playing with the words simply and keep your recipe and alcohol content as you always have! if you have wine in your manufacture keep it in a separated hidden space and write beside it - only for personal use LOL. In case your inspector is really taking things very personal with you!  

 

2-regardless if you respected the amount at or below 0.5% they will still inquire legal paper confirmation of dose for this amount and for every future wine ganache collections you'll produce.

 

3- supposing you did all the work and you made it to 0.5% or below for each piece of chocolate (including shell of course as when they will test you bonbon in lab they will weight the hall think, they are not chocolatier to know the difference they care less LOL), what makes you think the bonbon will still taste like wine? as the flavor of wine will definitely reduce. so not worth it from the client point of view to enjoy the truffle wine! either they think you miss labeled the name or you are very cheap to add more wine LOL. result unsatisfied customers.

 

4- its very challenging to add the right dose of 0.5% exactly on each piece unless you are using a oneshot machine for exact dose and still its very challenging, as am currently consulting a new business which he wants to introduce weed to chocolate and that is a very serious regulations no way around it. has to be exact.

 

To be Blank with you with no artificial vanilla:

stay away from lawyers and following the regulations book 100% or else you''ll go out of business! only things that matters is a clean finished product, safe and not miss leading your customers by a big jump.

I really hope I could of being of a help for you and wish you all best, and sorry for you to experience all this struggle, must be hard when you touch success and sales and then someone shows up to stop you from keep going.

Merci 

Francois

 

Edited March 30, 2020 by Francois Royal (log)

[YetiChocolates]

Thanks @Francois Royal for the info. 
 

I guess as an update to the fallout of all this, pretty much all the LCB agent was looking for was for me to get a Class 5 liquor permit, which in Washington state is a permit that states the alcohol you are using in your production and in what quantities and where you are buying it. It costs me $10/year and has so far kept them off my back.
 

I also learned a lot about the law of alcohol in confections and know how to answer the question if someone comes knocking again. One thing the LCB agent got wrong during his inquiry was asking what the alcohol by volume was within the confection, which according to the law doesn’t apply, it’s alcohol by weight. Regardless, moving forward I now state on all ingredient labels where alcohol is present, “This product contains alcohol, but less than 0.5% per weight of the product”. 
 

I did learn that the particular agent that I was dealing with last year got redistributed within the agency and isn’t an LCB agent anymore. So at least I don’t have to worry about him moving forward.  

I think it is important to at least have a basic knowledge of liquor laws within your state and how they apply to confections. And when in doubt, if they ask if you add the alcohol during the cooking process you always say yes...

Edited April 2, 2020 by YetiChocolates (log)