Why is Asian(Westernized) broth so dang difficult to get right?

[KennethT]

Most flavor doesn't get out of the meat into the broth until a long time... and most meat has a lot of impurities which don't taste so good.  So you have a couple of options:

1) Don't blanch the bones but constantly skim skim skim skim as it cooks....

2) Blanch for 10 minutes, throw out the water and rinse the skum off the bones then start over for real with less skimming needed

 

This is stock making 101... any french cookbook will discuss this.

 

Beef broth should simmer for like 8 hours for full flavor extraction.  That's a long time and a pita to watch.  I (and a lot of us here) take a shortcut and use the pressure cooker... then it only takes about an hour, and if you use a natural release, winds up with a really clear broth.

 

In classical cooking, one can clarify soups/stocks by utilizing a raft - since the clarification also removes flavor, you commonly mix meat and veg into the egg whites to replace the flavor you might have lost.  The steps are basically once you strain your stock, mix a couple egg whites and ground meat/veg and add to the cold stock (mix prior toadding).  Bring up to a simmer - the raft materials will slowly float to the top - once it covers the whole surface, poke a hole in the middle and allow the broth to simmer up through the hole.  Simmer for like 20 minutes, then gently remove the raft and strain.  This is classically how you'd make consomme, which looks like a typical Chinese wonton soup base but will be much higher end. 

 

Also, if you want a lot of flavor in your soup, don't just use bones as you would for making stock, but add quite a bit of meat in there as well - that will add a lot of flavor.

[Kerala]

Try it once?

Edited February 18, 2018 by Kerala
wspeĺing (log)

[emmeyekayeee]

Ok. You've convinced me ( along with the other responders) to try it. I don't have a pressure cooker, but I will use a whole utility chicken and maybe a nice big ham bone, cook for 10 minutes and, ugh, drain the pot and rinse the meat/bones. Then start the broth making. I'm going to try to use whole flavour ingredients and not powdered. I will try to adhere strictly to the tried and true methods and not attempt a shortcut. Perhaps if I can get some success, I can learn to streamline so future batches won't feel tedious.

Edited February 18, 2018 by emmeyekayeee (log)

[KennethT]

The key to blanching is not the 10 minutes, but to start from cold and bring to a simmer.  Once you're there you can dump it - no need to wait.  Also, use the minimum amount of water possible to just cover the meat for the blanching... don't use tons of water.

[JoNorvelleWalker]

@emmeyekayeee I have had good results from this Japanese beef broth recipe:

https://umamimart.com/blogs/main/japanese-curry-scratch

 

The broth as shown is the basis for a curry but it is very flavorful on its own.

 

[emmeyekayeee]

From the responses, there seems to be two main camps...I'm going to make a "blanch the impurities" broth and a "roast the impurities" broth. Now, what about......and which flavourings?

[Duvel]

7 minutes ago, emmeyekayeee said:

From the responses, there seems to be two main camps...I'm going to make a "blanch the impurities" broth and a "roast the impurities" broth. Now, what about......and which flavourings?

Since you are working on your wonton soup base, I'll start with the classics: ginger, scallion, bit of white pepper, maybe some cabbage trimmings and ham (cured, but not smoked). If you have access to dried shrimps you could add them, too ...

[emmeyekayeee]

I'm going to the store now. I'm getting two chickens and a ham steak, sliced in half. After respective roasting and blanching, I will add a chunk of ginger, scallion, pepper, dried shrimp and cabbage. I'll take a picture after this mad science is over. Any more suggestions? Get them in now before it's too late.

Edited February 19, 2018 by emmeyekayeee (log)

[KennethT]

If you're trying to imitate a westernized wonton soup broth, I'd definitely leave out the dried shrimp.  I'd use a combo of garlic, ginger, green onion and white pepper... and don't skimp on the salt if you want to recreate what you get in the restaurant!

[emmeyekayeee]

Ok,  no dried shrimpies. I only have one stock pot, so I'm roasting the chicken and ham first. For about an hour. Think I should put the flavourings in there, too?

[Duvel]

3 hours ago, emmeyekayeee said:

Ok,  no dried shrimpies. I only have one stock pot, so I'm roasting the chicken and ham first. For about an hour. Think I should put the flavourings in there, too?

If you want to go "Chinese" I'd skip the roasting and par-boil instead ...

[emmeyekayeee]

Too late! I'm half way through roasting! But.....I'll tackle parboiling presently.

[emmeyekayeee]

Ok, so....

I used 8 quarter chickens because it was a great price at the supermarket. I roasted those in a big stock pot along with half a ham steak and the root vegetables (4" of ginger and half a clove of garlic) for two hours at 350°F. I then very gently boiled on the stove with 4 stalks of green onion, 4 leaves of cabbage, and a leek stalk, all roughly chopped. There was no scum whatsoever, and intially was quite clear, it gradually occluded as the broth reduced. I only put in 2 teaspoons of white pepper and no salt.  I left it cooking on the stovetop for 8 hours.

The taste, well.....there is flavour, but it's not what I would consider "strong". If fact, it tasted weak, and definitely not what I would consider takeout wonton soup flavour. There is no "unctuousness" to it. The savoury is rather unsavoury. 

I'm sure if I reduce the liquid some more, the flavour will intensify....it seems to me that this is a large task for such a small gain. 

Any thoughts?

Also, I'm looking for some creative ideas for overcooked chicken parts.....

Edited February 19, 2018 by emmeyekayeee (log)

[chileheadmike]

The leeks and scallions may be causing your cloudiness, especially if you're using the green parts. 

[emmeyekayeee]

How do I add flavouring then?

[heidih]

For a chicken stock/broth your total time seems awfully long; a possible factor in "muddy" taste

[chileheadmike]

I'l lose the leeks/scallions and go with yellow onion. 

I think Heidi is correct, 8 hours is a very long time for chicken stock. I go 2 tops. 

[Chimayo Joe]

Have you read the Serious Eats article on wonton soup?  It might provide some insight.

 

http://www.seriouseats.com/2013/04/the-food-lab-wonton-soup.html

[Anna N]

As someone who fell into the same trap as you seem to be in, I feel I can chip in here without embarrassment. You’re clinging too tightly to your Western ways. I did the same thing when I was trying to test some Indian recipes for a well-known author of Indian cookbooks. I blush to think back on the things that I insisted were wrong including using well done meat. I wanted it rare.  It isn’t done in traditional Indian cooking. My mentor practically had to hit me over the head with a skillet to get me to adjust my mindset. 

 

It is the Asian way to clean bones and meat by briefly blanching them or washing them. It brings something to the table that the Western manner doesn’t.  It goes against the grain but if you want to make an Asian style stock then you need to adapt your style to the Asian way.  

 

 You have some fabulous mentors here. Do try to let go and let them guide you. 

[emmeyekayeee]

I had given myself to the whims and wherewithal of others when I decided to enjoin this forum. I let go of my preconceptions. That being said.....as I mentioned earlier....there seems to be two main camps of thought here. "Roasted" and "blanched". I followed what I would call, in a nutshell, the "roasted" method last night and I announced my results. Today, I am going to attempt the "blanched". (Interestingly, I have read the Serious Eats article numerous times. I get the feeling I'm in the "close, but no cigar" realm of brothland)

This is my plan.....

I'm getting some more chicken quarters and blanch them, along with the last half of the ham steak (cold water, just to the top of the meat, until boiling), and scrub the meat AND pot clean. Refill and cook for a couple of hours with aromatics (the same as my prior pot, see above). 

If there is anything I'm missing or doing wrong, please tell me before I ruin another broth. Picture of end product to come!

[KennethT]

As others have stated, for chicken broth, 2 hours tops at a slight simmer.  Also, I would tend to add the meat first, maybe with onion, but add any more delicate herbs like green onion or thinly sliced ginger, much later on - like towards the last half hour or so.

 

Also, I think you need a lot more salt - one thing I find similar in all restaurant wonton soups is a much higher amount of salt than I generally use at home - but it's necessary if you want to recreate that taste accurately.

[emmeyekayeee]

Duly noted! I haven't added any salt to the broth as of yet, but I will now. I will avoid adding the leafy vegetables until near the end. 

[emmeyekayeee]

Ok. I can honestly say that this is the closest I've been to the FOMY (Foods Of My Youth) broth that I remember. As responders has said on here, scrubbing does, well. ...work. I scrubbed the meat immediately after boiling. I even gave it a second rince before the final push. I added two tablespoons of salt and 2 teaspoons of white pepper, thinly sliced ginger and smashed 1/2 garlic clove. The flavour was mostly absent until I added the leaf vegetables 1/2 hour before finish. I slowly heated up the broth until a tiny boil started an hour later and then I cooked for 2 hours. 

Like I said, the flavour didn't come through until the greens, but it sure popped afterwards. It may NOT be the "powerful" punch I may have expected or desired, but I'm thinking that's not the point. The point is, apparently, to act as an adjunct to the main actors of the show....the wontons (and maybe noodles). Kind of like holding hands after kissing a beautiful woman. 

Whodda think it?

[Thanks for the Crepes]

23 hours ago, emmeyekayeee said:

I added two tablespoons of salt and 2 teaspoons of white pepper, thinly sliced ginger and smashed 1/2 garlic clove. The flavour was mostly absent until I added the leaf vegetables 1/2 hour before finish. I slowly heated up the broth until a tiny boil started an hour later and then I cooked for 2 hours. 

 

I can help with the garlic and ginger flavor disappearing over your two hour cook from a similar mistake I made making egg drop soup years ago. "Joy of Cooking" tells you to simmer the garlic and ginger for 15 minutes in the chix stock and then remove said garlic and ginger. This works well for extracting the maximum flavor. My thinking I had a better idea and simmering the garlic and ginger for closer to an hour was enough to almost completely destroy both flavor components. So ... longer is not always better. 

[emmeyekayeee]

I see.....are you implying that I should steep with garlic and ginger at the BEGINNING of the boil, then remove.....or, akin to the leafy vegetables.....adding them near the end of the boil?