The Bread Topic (2016–)

Acelestialobject · February 15

Does anyone here know of a way to check the doneness of bread without a thermometer?? I have only baked cakes before so checking if the bread was done was kinda challenging for me

**ElsieD** · February 15

@PatrickT posted 2 videos above that showed how to make multigrain bread. I'm curious about something. One requires you to make a soaker of the seeds, the other does not. One requires you to toast the seeds (soaker method) first, the other does not call for toasting the seeds. The first one I'm going to try calls for the non-toasted, non-soaker method. However, toasting and soaking the seeds first 4appeals to me. Do I need to adjust the amount of water the recipe calls for if using the soaker method? Anything else I should be aware off if I do this? Comments appreciated.

PatrickT · February 15

3 hours ago, ElsieD said:

@PatrickT posted 2 videos above that showed how to make multigrain bread. I'm curious about something. One requires you to make a soaker of the seeds, the other does not. One requires you to toast the seeds (soaker method) first, the other does not call for toasting the seeds. The first one I'm going to try calls for the non-toasted, non-soaker method. However, toasting and soaking the seeds first 4appeals to me. Do I need to adjust the amount of water the recipe calls for if using the soaker method? Anything else I should be aware off if I do this? Comments appreciated.

Having just baked a loaf with a seed mix, here’s what worked great for me. Toast the seeds if you want to (not necessary but doing so can provide a nicely enhanced flavor). Soak the seeds overnight in a covered container. I measured out twice the weight of the seed mix in grams of water and didn’t adjust anything else in my dough - just added the soaked seeds (which had absorbed all the water). Worked perfectly for me. Just enough crunch in the seeds in the final loaf. Hope that helps! Can’t wait to see your result!

PatrickT · February 15

@Acelestialobject OK - I'm feeling badly that nobody jumped in to answer your questions, so I'll take a stab at them. I am by no means an expert, so take everything I say with a grain of salt. 😉

Firstly, regarding the hard crust, several things can impact this in my experience. I'll start by saying that most sourdough bakers actually like their loaves with crisp, crunchy, mahogany-colored crusts and spongy crumbs - and most of the recipes you'll find will pretty much attempt to deliver on that. You said you used a King Arthur recipe. Can you please provide a link to it? That will help a lot.

Some factors to consider:

The flour(s) used. Higher protein flours (like strong bread flour) and whole grain flours can sometimes contribute to a harder crust. Some bakers use a lower protein white flour (like a good all purpose flour) and have great success with it.
The baking temperature and time. Higher temps can cause harder crusts to form, as can over-baking. Judging by its appearance, I suspect that one or both of these factors contributed to the hard crust in your loaf. And something to mention here that might sound obvious - all ovens behave differently. 450F in my oven vs. 450F in your oven might produce a very different result. You'll find your sweet spot with temperature and time with repeated experiences with your oven over the course of baking many loaves. Be patient and make lots of notes to help guide your next efforts.
An unenriched recipe (one with flour, water, salt and starter only) will generally produce a loaf with a harder crust than an enriched recipe (one that contains eggs and/or some kind of added fat - like oil or butter). Enriched recipes also typically have a more closed, softened crumb. Compare, for example, the KA recipe you used for your loaf with their recipe for Sourdough Sandwich Bread. See how different the crust and crumb look for that recipe?

Secondly, you asked about how to tell when your loaves are done baking without a thermometer. The standard answer to this one is typically: "Turn the loaf over in your hands and thump the bottom with your finger. If it sounds hollow, it's done." Again, experience with your oven is going to help you nail this. Stick to the same recipe for a while and follow it explicitly regarding baking temperature and time. Then, judge your results. If the loaf seems over-baked (excessively dark, dry, super-crusty, etc.) try either shortening the baking time a few minutes or lower the temp a bit the next time you bake. Alternatively, if the interior of your loaf is noticeably underbaked and gummy, try lengthening the baking time a few minutes or raising the temp a little next time. After a few attempts, you'll find the right combination that produces the results you're after. You can then use that information as a starting point for the next recipe you try. And don't discount getting an instant thermometer at some point in the future. They're a bit pricey but you can use them for all sorts of things.

Hope this helps! Happy baking. 😃

**ElsieD** · February 15

1 hour ago, PatrickT said:

Having just baked a loaf with a seed mix, here’s what worked great for me. Toast the seeds if you want to (not necessary but doing so can provide a nicely enhanced flavor). Soak the seeds overnight in a covered container. I measured out twice the weight of the seed mix in grams of water and didn’t adjust anything else in my dough - just added the soaked seeds (which had absorbed all the water). Worked perfectly for me. Just enough crunch in the seeds in the final loaf. Hope that helps! Can’t wait to see your result!

If I read your post correctly, if my seeds weigh 70 ounces, I would take 70 grams of the water called for in the recipe and use that to soak the seeds? Then deduct the water used for that from the water called for in the recipe, and use that in the rest of the recipe? I will have Amaranth seeds Monday so will do an overnight soak Monday night.

**ElsieD** · February 15

1 hour ago, PatrickT said:

Having just baked a loaf with a seed mix, here’s what worked great for me. Toast the seeds if you want to (not necessary but doing so can provide a nicely enhanced flavor). Soak the seeds overnight in a covered container. I measured out twice the weight of the seed mix in grams of water and didn’t adjust anything else in my dough - just added the soaked seeds (which had absorbed all the water). Worked perfectly for me. Just enough crunch in the seeds in the final loaf. Hope that helps! Can’t wait to see your result!

Are you posting a picture of said loaf?

PatrickT · February 15

12 minutes ago, ElsieD said:

If I read your post correctly, if my seeds weigh 70 ounces, I would take 70 grams of the water called for in the recipe and use that to soak the seeds? Then deduct the water used for that from the water called for in the recipe, and use that in the rest of the recipe? I will have Amaranth seeds Monday so will do an overnight soak Monday night.

Sorry - my answer was not only poorly worded, I didn't even remember what I did correctly!

Here are the specifics:

I measured the total weight of my seeds in grams (126 grams, in my case).
I measured out an equal amount of water (126 grams) and soaked the seeds in that overnight. They absorbed all of that water.
I mixed the soaked seeds into my bread dough without making any other adjustments to the recipe. Turned out great!

My apologies for the confusion! See? Just like I said to @Acelestialobject - definitely not an expert! 😂

PatrickT · February 15

22 minutes ago, ElsieD said:

Are you posting a picture of said loaf?

Happy to! Here you go.

**ElsieD** · February 15

31 minutes ago, PatrickT said:

Happy to! Here you go.

What an amazing loaf. Do you have a recipe for it or does it use sourdough?

**ElsieD** · February 15

43 minutes ago, PatrickT said:

Sorry - my answer was not only poorly worded, I didn't even remember what I did correctly!

Here are the specifics:

I measured the total weight of my seeds in grams (126 grams, in my case).

I measured out an equal amount of water (126 grams) and soaked the seeds in that overnight. They absorbed all of that water.

I mixed the soaked seeds into my bread dough without making any other adjustments to the recipe. Turned out great!

My apologies for the confusion! See? Just like I said to @Acelestialobject - definitely not an expert! 😂

So, I will be using about 125 gms of seeds. The recipe calls for a total of 1 1/2 cups water. I will soak the seeds in 125 gms of water. I still use 1 1/2 cups of water or 1 1/2 cups minus 125 grams? Sorry to be such a bother. I'm not normally this obtuse!

PatrickT · February 15

17 minutes ago, ElsieD said:

What an amazing loaf. Do you have a recipe for it or does it use sourdough?

Thank you so much! It is a sourdough recipe, but you could just as easily convert it to yeast. In place of the starter weight in grams (let's just say that's 50g for a 500g flour weight loaf), just add half that amount of flour (25g - you could just use all bread flour here, for simplicity) and half that amount of water (25g) to the base recipe, then add your customary amount of yeast. I'd love to see your results if you try it!

image.png.93e24756327b4c76caf58b90ec705be2.png

PatrickT · February 15

14 minutes ago, ElsieD said:

So, I will be using about 125 gms of seeds. The recipe calls for a total of 1 1/2 cups water. I will soak the seeds in 125 gms of water. I still use 1 1/2 cups of water or 1 1/2 cups minus 125 grams? Sorry to be such a bother. I'm not normally this obtuse!

Oh geez - you are not obtuse! LOL I would try it with just your required 1 1/2 cups of water - no deduction needed.

Good luck!

**ElsieD** · February 15

Concierge just called up. Looks like my Amaranth arrived early so will do the soak tonight.

PatrickT · February 15

7 minutes ago, ElsieD said:

Concierge just called up. Looks like my Amaranth arrived early so will do the soak tonight.

😃👍🙌

Acelestialobject · February 16

9 hours ago, PatrickT said:

Can you please provide a link to it?

https://www.kingarthurbaking.com/recipes/no-knead-sourdough-bread-recipe This one.

9 hours ago, PatrickT said:

The baking temperature and time. Higher temps can cause harder crusts to form, as can over-baking. Judging by its appearance, I suspect that one or both of these factors contributed to the hard crust in your loaf

Hmm I think you're right its probably the baking temperature. When I took it out the first time it looked golden and crisp on the outside and it seemed quite moist to me on the inside so I kept it back in the oven bc the slices in tutorials I saw for SD bread were pretty dry after baking.

This seems like my mistake tho T_T

9 hours ago, PatrickT said:

See how different the crust and crumb look for that recipe?

Definitely. I didn't know it was possible to bake such a soft looking bread with sourdough.

The ones I have seen all look like artisans bread

9 hours ago, PatrickT said:

Then, judge your results. If the loaf seems over-baked (excessively dark, dry, super-crusty, etc.) try either shortening the baking time a few minutes or lower the temp a bit the next time you bake. Alternatively, if the interior of your loaf is noticeably underbaked and gummy, try lengthening the baking time a few minutes or raising the temp a little next time. After a few attempts, you'll find the right combination that produces the results you're after. You can then use that information as a starting point for the next recipe you try. And don't discount getting an instant thermometer at some point in the future. They're a bit pricey but you can use them for all sorts of things

This is great advice. I'll try to get the thermometer the moment I find it around here. I had put off baking bread bc while baking the first bread as checking its doneness was a challenge to me.

Thanks a lot @PatrickT I appreciate your help :)) And you needn't feel bad for me as you have jumped in to respond anyway with elaborate advice good enough for a complete beginner like me. So now Im sure the next time I bake bread the crust wouldn't be hard enough to knock on it like a door ;))

Edited February 16 by Acelestialobject (log)

PatrickT · February 16

5 hours ago, Acelestialobject said:

https://www.kingarthurbaking.com/recipes/no-knead-sourdough-bread-recipe This one.

Thanks! That's a great one to start with. There are also a couple of resources linked in that recipe that you should definitely check out. (1) About a quarter of the way down, there's a link to a blog post by Maurizio Leo, titled "How to make no-knead sourdough bread." When you make your next loaf, look carefully at the pictures you see there at various stages in the recipe and see how well they match up with your own dough. He also runs a website called The Perfect Loaf and recently published a sourdough cookbook by the same name. (2) Under the "Tips from our Bakers" section, there's a link to King Arthur's Sourdough Baking Guide. Lots of great additional information for you there, as well.

5 hours ago, Acelestialobject said:

When I took it out the first time it looked golden and crisp on the outside and it seemed quite moist to me on the inside so I kept it back in the oven bc the slices in tutorials I saw for SD bread were pretty dry after baking.

Great observation! For my oven (and remember, yours might be different here), all of my loaves would be over baked if I baked them for an hour at 450F. I typically bake mine for about 40 minutes or so. I also noticed that it looked like you baked your loaf in a bread pan. Did you cover that with another bread pan for the first part of the bake?

5 hours ago, Acelestialobject said:

I'll try to get the thermometer the moment I find it around here. I had put off baking bread bc while baking the first bread as checking its doneness was a challenge to me.

The thermometer isn't essential, but it's a great tool to have in your kitchen. This is the one I use. Pricey for sure but well worth the investment. In the interim, try that thumping method and see how you get on.

5 hours ago, Acelestialobject said:

So now Im sure the next time I bake bread the crust wouldn't be hard enough to knock on it like a door ;))

We've all been there, trust me. I am most definitely not immune to flops now and again! 😂 Still, bread making is a wonderful hobby. As you pointed out, even things we judge as our "mistakes" taste good. And sharing your results with family, friends and neighbors is a great way to spread the joy of home baking.

Keep posting your results - and good luck with your next bake! 😃👍

**ElsieD** · February 16

Here are a couple of pictures of the multigrain bread. I followed the recipe except i used a soaker as mentioned and used 3 tablespoons of honey, not 2. The bread needs more salt, and that's coming from someone who is not a salt lick. I did have to add more flour to the mix but next time I will either a) not soak my seeds or b) adjust the amount of water used in the soak. I can always use more flour/water if needed. But, I have to say that this bread is absolutely delicious and I'll be making it again and again. Thank you @PatrickT!

Acelestialobject · February 16

9 hours ago, PatrickT said:

There are also a couple of resources linked in that recipe that you should definitely check out.

Thank you for pointing these out. I had skipped them and moved on to the recipe instructions. I had a look at these pages right now and clearly I had missed out on such great info which Im gonna include in my next bake. :))

10 hours ago, PatrickT said:

Did you cover that with another bread pan for the first part of the bake?

Um..No? I kinda followed the direct recipe and its directions. And it wasn't mentioned so I didn't do it.

But maybe that ( along with long baking time) contributed to a hard crust??

10 hours ago, PatrickT said:

Pricey for sure but well worth the investment. In the interim, try that thumping method and see how you get on.

Clearly. It looks like the kind of product that lasts for years and years. It does seem worthy enough to add to my baking shopping wishlist. Meanwhile, I'll be training myself to use all 5 of my senses (and the Thumping method ofc) to bake perfectly done bread ;))

10 hours ago, PatrickT said:

We've all been there, trust me. I am most definitely not immune to flops now and again! 😂 Still, bread making is a wonderful hobby. As you pointed out, even things we judge as our "mistakes" taste good. And sharing your results with family, friends and neighbors is a great way to spread the joy of home baking.

Keep posting your results - and good luck with your next bake! 😃

This is so reassuring. Thank you. You are right. Me and fam have already enjoyed a lot of my baking "mistakes". Hoping to learn something new with the next bake. Will definitely update :))

PatrickT · February 17

1 hour ago, ElsieD said:

Here are a couple of pictures of the multigrain bread.

Magnificent!! 😃 And this was the first recipe I shared? How does it measure up to your recollection of Dave’s bread?

Definitely have to try this one. Congrats on a tremendous bake!

**ElsieD** · February 17

15 minutes ago, PatrickT said:

Magnificent!! 😃 And this was the first recipe I shared? How does it measure up to your recollection of Dave’s bread?

Definitely have to try this one. Congrats on a tremendous bake!

Thank you. Yes, it was the first recipe, the one from Jill. It was so easy, essentially put everything in a bowl, knead with your KA, proof, knock down, shape, add topping, rise, bake. It's hard for me to compare it to Dave's but I'm happy enough (very) that I can stop looking and make this bread. I also decided that from now on I'll bake it in my larger Pullman pan. The slices from the one I made today don't fit my toaster.

paul o' vendange · February 17

Just a simple bauernbrot, made with both rye sourdough starter and a "Vorteig," a poolish. Also made some fresh farmer's cheese to go with it for dinner.

PatrickT · February 17

25 minutes ago, ElsieD said:

It's hard for me to compare it to Dave's but I'm happy enough (very) that I can stop looking and make this bread.

Wow - fantastic! I'll definitely give this one a whirl. Thanks for sharing the great report. Glad you love it!

PatrickT · February 17

2 hours ago, Acelestialobject said:

Thank you for pointing these out.

Absolutely! Lots of great info there to reread now and again.

2 hours ago, Acelestialobject said:

But maybe that ( along with long baking time) contributed to a hard crust??

Yup - very likely. Here's the thing about covering your loaf during the first 20-30 minutes of baking: it traps the steam produced by the moisture in the dough as it bakes. That steam prevents the crust from hardening too fast, allowing the loaf to expand (you'll see this referred to as "oven spring") and give you a more open crumb. You could accomplish this by inverting another bread tin over the top of your baking one before you pop it into the oven. Remove it for the last 10-15 minutes of your baking time to allow the crust to color to your liking.

2 hours ago, Acelestialobject said:

Meanwhile, I'll be training myself to use all 5 of my senses (and the Thumping method ofc) to bake perfectly done bread

Great plan!

2 hours ago, Acelestialobject said:

Hoping to learn something new with the next bake. Will definitely update :))

Awesome! Looking forward to that. Good luck!

PatrickT · February 17

19 minutes ago, paul o' vendange said:

Just a simple bauernbrot, made with both rye sourdough starter and a "Vorteig," a poolish.

Your loaf looks amazing, as does your cheese! Being from Wisconsin, of course I had to say that. 😃😂

JoNorvelleWalker · February 17

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