Is an interest in food in the UK, "elitist"?

[Steve Plotnicki]

I think that anything that appears to be something any person can do, like the ability to taste the quality of food, it's prime to be considered an elitist activity as soon as a more expert group of people come along and act in a way that results in people being excluded. This wouldn't be the case with say, stamp collecting or opera singing. With those types of hobbys, people are willing to concede that others are more expert. But when it comes to food, or seeing a movie or knowing what the best CD is, everyone is an expert.

I think the whole notion of food as an elitist activity has to start with the fact that not everyone has enough to eat in the world. I mean if we were to be viewing and talking about art, or literature, etc. well nobody needs to have those things in order to survive. But there are people who do not have enough to eat. ?

I'm also sort of curious as to why the "elite" has such a negative connotation.

[peterpumkino]

then Peter's 1950's model, Dad in the big chair, Happy Familys - type take away meals.

I think you know me a lot better than this (at least you should by now).

BTW how was the Peasant and Cream - a bit meaty maybe?

[macrosan]

I said this somewhere else, but .... anyway, I'll say it again

People's resentment of elitism lies not in the recognition that there are some people who know more than them about a particular subject, but in the arrogation by some people of their own divine right to pontificate on subjects about which they know a little, and their denial of the right of comment or criticism by others whome they believe to be inferior.

So it's the arrogance and bigotry that often seeps into the mentality of elitists that causes a problem. It is also then often the case that the arrogance and bigotry spread into areas of non-exoertise, so that the elitist assumes a position of superiority in all things over all "lesser" people.

Gary's and Adam's view of the population is truly starting to sound elitist. The notion that the 59million or so people in Britain who don't post on eGullet are thereby likely to eat worse than those who do is certainly arrogant, and that perspective might indeed classify as elitist under my definition above. The lie to the tenet is given by observations such as the volume of food sales by Marks & Spencer, by the proportion of high quality and speciality foods sold by the big supermarket chains, by the per capita expenditure on food in the UK, by the increasing popularity of organic foods, by the rapid increase in restaurant revenues in the UK over the past 15 years and the visible improvement in quality of those restaurants, and so on.

The image of the uneducated plodder delighting over tripe on toast in a mean cottage in a Yorkshire village is an ancient and class-ridden image. Those who believe that their separation from this image places them in an elite are self-delusionary.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Macrosan - You are just plain wrong. People who eat TV dinners eat worse then people who eat fresh food. Food isn;t any more relative then bad literature, bad art or bad ideology (see NaziGermany.) There is sucha thing as good and bad in theworld even though sometimes it is hard to define or to see an obvious place to draw the line. And most often, you see people who have less exoertise calling peoplewho have it elite as a way make themselves feel better. It is just reerse snobbery. Because yes the world needs standards and those standards are important.

Edited January 13, 2003 by Steve Plotnicki (log)

[Tonyfinch]

I think an interest in food and good, or at least better, eating has begun to transcend class lines in this country. Cookery books sell in millions, cookery programmes are watched by millions and supermarkets are forced to provide an ever widening range of diverse food and wine.

What that interest does not appear to have transcended is age lines. Young people in this country, and I suspect the States, eat shite 90% of the time. How many young people do you know who take an active interest in cooking and in what they eat? Look at any branch of McDonalds or Burger King or Pizza Hut and calculate the percentage of customers under 25.

This is why I can't dislike Jamie Oliver. He is at least attempting to show younger people that cooking and eating well can be fun. It is a serious issue as reliance on junk food is storing up future health problems for a lot of people. Forget "Food Technology". Cooking and Eating should be a compulsory national curriculum subject in all our schools from 5 on.

[Kikujiro]

Tony, you're probably right, but (i) why do you think that is, and (ii) what do you think causes younger people to grow out of it?

(Thesis one. Young people still living at their parents' homes have to eat out to have their own social life. Second, they tend not to have a large budget to do so. Further, youth culture privileges drinking over eating anyway. I don't think this is a very good explanation though.)

[StephenT]

Tony, you're probably right, but (i) why do you think that is, and (ii) what do you think causes younger people to grow out of it?

(Thesis one. Young people still living at their parents' homes have to eat out to have their own social life. Second, they tend not to have a large budget to do so. Further, youth culture privileges drinking over eating anyway. I don't think this is a very good explanation though.)

Fast food corporations market themselves at young people because they know they're gullible. And those that aren't immediately taken in by the advertising are still sucked in because their peers are. Those that have a brain will grow up, figure it out and stop going there. Except on the way home when very drunk.

[Kikujiro]

So older people are resistant to marketing?

Surely in recent years the advertising industry has had to get a lot more self-reflexive and ironic in order to deal with cynicism over advertising among the young.

Edited January 13, 2003 by Kikujiro (log)

[Adam Balic]

These are the official statistics for diet (male age 6-64) in Scotland (1998 data set, most up to date). It would seem that diet in this part of the UK is very strongly influenced by your "class". Poor people on the right, Toffs on the left. Pity I couldn't find data on meat consumption, as I would be interested to see how much a working class person was able to afford to eat per week in this country. Working class end of the diet still looks very Victorian in overall aspect.

Cheese is class-less, which is nice.

Social class of chief income earner

I II IIINM IIIM IV V Total

Food type and frequency of consumption

Percentage

Adds sugar to tea

33 37 41 49 55 52 45

Adds sugar to coffee

33 40 41 47 52 55 44

Eats chocolates, biscuits, crisps etc once a day or more

54 53 52 57 55 47 54

Uses butter or margarine

40 44 42 46 48 48 44

Eats fried food two or more times/ week

35 44 43 50 59 58 48

Uses skimmed or semi-skimmed milk

72 69 68 60 52 51 63

Eats cheese two or more times a week

68 68 63 69 72 65 68

Eats oil rich fish less than once a month

17 27 35 37 42 47 34

Eats wholemeal bread

22 13 10 8 6 6 10

Eats fresh fruit once a day or more

61 53 46 43 34 34 46

Eats cooked green vegetables five or more times a week

53 45 39 36 31 30 39

Eats raw vegetables or salad two or more times a week

59 54 44 39 33 39 45

[Steve Plotnicki]

Young people eat shite because they don;t know any better. All fast food restaurants are is a place where they have consolidated the shite eaters into a single market. But I have to say that as I grow older, I have less tolerance towards many of the foods I ate when I was younger/ Especially things with a high grease factor.

[Kikujiro]

But I have to say that as I grow older

I have less tolerance towards many of the foods I ate when I was younger

Especially things with a high grease factor.

These lines are meant to be sung, surely.

Anyway: in Thailand they're tackling the problem theatrically.

[Steve Plotnicki]

it already was.

I was so much older then I'm younger then that now.. At least I think those re the lyrics.

[macrosan]

Adam, those are interesting figures you produced. Thanks for that.

Do they not say more about the healthiness of the food that people eat than about their interest in food ? I accept that poorer people will spend less on food, and that cheaper food is often less healthy. But I'm not convinced there is any strong correlation between "healthy" and "good quality" or "interesting". It seems to me that a huge proportion of "gourmet" food contains large amounts of butter, which is considered very unhealthy. Similarly, animal fat is much prized by some gourmets. Frying is perfectly acceptable within the gourmet context of "good food" isn't it ? As is sugar.

Of course it is accepted that those gourmet foods which are determined by rarity, such as caviar and truffles and Kobe steak, are automatically denied to poorer people. But even that doesn't stop them being interested in it.

[Kikujiro]

More global perspectives.

Kids and soda are a harmless combination, considering the far more dangerous substances out there, right? But soft drink intake has nearly doubled in the past 10 years, in an inverse relationship to milk and juice consumption.

In other words, the more sodas a teen drinks (two to three a day is average), the less likely they are to drink milk, according to studies cited by Jane McGrath, school health officer for the New Mexico Department of Health. "We know kids aren't getting the calcium they need in their diet," McGrath said. "The concern is that their bone density is lower as teen-agers than it should be, so it sets them up for osteoporosis later in life."

Santa Fe New Mexican

CHILDREN'S food should carry health warnings, according to West Derby MP Bob Wareing.

He said it would help combat child obesity, as one in three youngsters is now classed as overweight.

He warned that vast consumption of junk food will increase diabetes and heart disease among teenagers, leading to thousands more premature deaths and disabilities in the next generation.

He added: "The government should devise, as it has done with cigarettes, a health risk logo for all food ads aimed at children."

Liverpool Echo

The food management practices used by people with limited resources to ensure food sufficiency have not been fully characterized. Semistructured interviews were conducted with 51 nutrition educators from the New Jersey Expanded Food and Nutrition Education Program and Food Stamp Nutrition Education Program, regarding the food management practices of program participants. Practices were grouped into two categories using the constant comparative method: manage food supply (n=14) and regulate eating patterns (n=15). Well-documented stratagems, such as overeating when food is available and cycling monthly eating patterns, were confirmed. Novel practices were identified. Practices causing food safety or nutritional risks included removing spoiled sections, slime, mold, and insects from food; eating other people's leftovers; and, eating meat found as road kill. A foundation was formed for a grounded theory concerning food management practices by people with limited resources. Verification of these results with audiences with limited resources and determination of prevalence and relative risk of these practices is necessary. This research is important for nutrition professionals who work with people with limited resources because it elucidated a spectrum of safe and risky food management practices, proposed methods to ameliorate monthly eating pattern cycles, and exposed the possibility of food insecurity in unsuspected cases. J Am Diet Assoc. 2002;102:1795-1799.

A food-insecure individual is one who does not have "ready availability of nutritionally adequate and safe foods, and an assured ability to acquire acceptable foods in socially acceptable ways (eg, without resorting to emergency food supplies, scavenging, stealing, or other coping strategies)" (1). In 1998, approximately 10.2% of all US households-or about 36 million people-were food insecure (2). In attempts to maintain food sufficiency, individuals may rely on practices that are indicative of food insecurity; a food-sufficient individual is not necessarily food secure.

Food insecurity and hunger and food insufficiency have been widely studied (3-27). Because food insecurity can negatively affect concentration, intellectual attainment, work capacity, and health (25,26), it presents a "high cost to individuals, families, and to society as a whole" (27). Studies have revealed various food management practices used to avoid food insufficiency by various populations such as women with children (4,12,15), food preparers (22), elderly people (5,6), American-Indian children (23), and urban emergency food center clients (7). However, few studies have attempted to fully document the food management strategies employed by people with limited resources who deal with food insecurity at a much higher rate than the general population (2,3,10,13, 24,25).

Abstract of an article in the Journal of the American Dietetic Association (sorry, couldn't be bothered to remove footnote references).

They say an apple a day keeps the doctor away, but you won't find that tasty tidbit gracing the packages of Canadian food products. Especially once Health Canada finally gets in gear and lays down the long-awaited new regulations governing nutrition labeling on packaged food products--expected to take place some time in the new year.

At the heart of the proposed regulatory package lies the black-and-white "Nutrition Facts" box, which is slated to become the standard fare on all prepackaged food products sold in Canada. The mandatory tables are complete with calorie count, an expanded list of 13 essential nutrients, and a breakdown of their daily requirements expressed in percentage values.

The proposed regulations also provide a set of requirements that, once deemed as satisfied, would entitle food products manufacturers to add extra nutrient and diet-related health claims--such as High-Fiber and Fat-Free--to the front of their packages.

"What Health Canada really wants is for somebody to have the familiarity to pick up a food product from any manufacturer and be able to compare it across the board," explains Gary Gnirss, president of Mansfield, Ont.-based Legal Suites Inc., a company specializing in providing compliance services for the food industry.

"It's not to say that some of the formats we have right now are awful," he quickly adds, "it's just that when you compare two similar products, the nutrition information is presented in different manners. Standardization really just facilitates the delivery of that information."

While the ultimate goal may appear simple enough, not all of the issues at play are as black-and-white as the nutrition table.

"If you go into a grocery aisle and pick up a few packages, it's challenging to figure out where you'd put a nutritional statement," says Louis de Bellefeullie, chairman of the board of the Packaging Association of Canada (PAC) and director of sales and marketing at Winpak Technologies Inc. in Toronto. "First of all, we start with packaging that has two languages on it, which is very busy if you compare it to its U.S. counterpart.

...

According to Larry Dworkin, the PAC director of government relations, the graphic and technical challenges are trivial compared to what lies ahead for the packaging industry as a whole if the regulations pass as currently proposed.

Were that to happen, the biggest challenge would be meeting the two-year implementation period that Health Canada has in mind.

"We estimate that there are close to 100,000 SKUs (stock-keeping units) that would require a redesign of their packaging," says Dworkin.

"We just don't have enough [package] designers in Canada to do the turnaround in two years."

Canadian Packaging

CHILDREN from Corsham Regis Primary School had a tasty day out at Pizza Express on Friday to learn about healthy eating.

The 31 children and six adults all made their own pizzas and took them home for dinner.

Tristan Middleton said his class of eight and nine-year-olds had a great time and were really pleased to take their pizzas home to show their parents. "They tried food they had never had before and they got to make a mess and toss pizzas up in the air. They all had great fun," said Mr Middleton.

The pupils tried chillies, capers, artichokes, olives and anchovies.

The trip was part of a teeth and healthy living programme at the school this term.

This Is Chippenham

WINFREY: OK. There is a staggering number, staggering--I know, the country doesn't take it seriously for some reason, but there is a staggering number of seriously overweight children in this country, because there's too much food, all processed, there's not enough exercise, and America's overindulgent lifestyle are really to blame for all of this. And Laurel Mellin says that the problem goes even deeper. Laurel has been working with overrate--weight children and their families, because it's not just the child's problem, for 20 years, and she is the author of this book. It's called "The Solution." "The Solution." And she helped create Shapedown, leading programs for overweight children and their families. Laurel says that obesity in children is just a symptom, that it is really not the real problem.

Thank God for you. Thank God for you, really.

Ms. LAUREL MELLIN (Author, "The Solution"): Thank you. You know, Oprah, it's very sad, because there's three--the increase in obesity in children is threefold what it was even 20 years ago, and it's not about blaming McDonald's. It's about the idea that something very important is going on. Kids in our country aren't getting the nurturing and the limits they need. If there's an emotional pipeline open between parents and kids, it turns off emotional appetites. If kids get the safety of limits...

WINFREY: Say that again.

Ms. MELLIN: If there's an emotional connection, a pipeline...

WINFREY: Yeah.

Ms. MELLIN: ...between parent and child, that child will not have an emotional appetite. It just turns it off.

WINFREY: Uh-huh.

The Oprah Winfrey Show

When we have the opportunity to produce the healthiest generation in history, we really should not fail through laziness or ignorance.

This Is BrightonHove

The fruit industry is mobilising to fight back against the serious inroads made into its markets by snack food manufacturers.

Horticulture Australia is set to unveil a business plan that will include a high-priority public education and promotion campaign aimed at highlighting the importance of fresh fruit in a healthy diet.

SnackFruit Australia president Bill Hatton said a "relentless onslaught" by "junk food" manufacturers was diminishing the role of fresh fruit and threatening to "undermine the health of our children".

SnackFruit Australia is an umbrella body for 11 fruit industry bodies representing about 8000 producers supplying fruit with a farm gate value of more than $1 billion.

The organisation is alarmed by the success of snack food manufacturers in convincing consumers, through promotion and advertising, that snack foods are, by definition, healthy.

Herald and Weekly Times

[Steve Plotnicki]

I mean let's flip this topic upside dpwn. How would you describe a person who believes that Cadubury'sFruit and Nuts is as good as the best choclatetruffe from the chocolatier of your dreams? Or that margerine tastes better then butter?

[Simon Majumdar]

I have found that as I have grown older my tolerance of crap of all sorts has decreased be that in food, music or in the bullshit of day to day life

I think the reasons are many. Primary amongst them though is money. When I was a student or in my first jobs, I liked to go out, but had little money, so I had a cheap chinese place, a cheap Indian place, a cheap Italian place. I ate at places like Jimmy's in Soho. Looking back, the food was pretty vile, but at the time that was less important than the price. I also had less opportunity to compare it to anything better.

As my income increased, so did my desire to try new and better places. Likewise as I tried better places my knowledge increased. I began to understand why one chef was better than another and why one dish may be better than another.

I was also fortunate to have a brother who had a much larger income and had the same passion about food as I was developing. He was abloe to take me to places that I would never have been able to afford otherwise.

Now, I am fortunate that ( within reason ) I can more or less eat out and where I like whenever I want. I would no more set foot in JImmy's now than gnaw my own leg off, but it served its own purpose at the time.

This is not just about money, but about experience. I am still happy to go to The Angel mangal or New Tayyab and spend £20 as I am to go The Capital. The difference is I now know why The NT or AM are better than the other places that do the same thing and why some places that charge the earth can be as vile as a local Kebab joint

Elitism would be going to places that cost a fortune just because of that with no reference to what was being cooked there or knowledge of whether it was any good or not

S

[macrosan]

That's a fine summary, Simon. I like that.

[Tonyfinch]

Obviously with young people there are financial issues and given the choice between spending on food and spending on drink/drugs/clothes/clubs/cars etc its probably no contest.

However I think its wider than that. We don't teach our young people to eat well. We don't counter the massive advertising influence of the fast food chains with any sort of home or school based education. How many families insist on sitting down to a home cooked meal together at least once a day? It seems a quaintly old fashioned notion somehow, doesn't it? How often do we go out to restaurants en famille, as happens on the Continent? We don't teach young people how to cook either at home or in schools.

And yes Kiku, because we live in a culture which sees eating and drinking alcohol as different spheres of activity, the pleasures of one are not inextricably linked with the pleasures of the other.

[peterpumkino]

Look at any branch of McDonalds or Burger King or Pizza Hut and calculate the percentage of customers under 25.

This is partly true. Witness the fact that the largest McDonalds in Western Europe is in the heart of.......Rome! Now I DO know that the Italians young, old and inbetween love good food so I can only surmise that, for Italy at least, it's a trendy thing. The young all use McDonalds as a meeting place.

My 16 year old American daughter has been travelling and eating with me ever since and she really knows and loves her food yet she still goes to McDonalds.

[peterpumkino]

I mean let's flip this topic upside dpwn. How would you describe a person who believes that Cadubury'sFruit and Nuts is as good as the best choclatetruffe from the chocolatier of your dreams? Or that margerine tastes better then butter?

There you go again Mr Plotnicki. I love Cadbury's fruit and nut and much prefer it to 'elitist' Belgian chocolate (or chocolatier as you put it).

[CheGuevara]

Young people eat shite because they don;t know any better. All fast food restaurants are is a place where they have consolidated the shite eaters into a single market. But I have to say that as I grow older, I have less tolerance towards many of the foods I ate when I was younger/ Especially things with a high grease factor.

depends how you were raised as a child - and what you were/were not exposed to.

[The Artful Dodger]

or knowledge of whether it was any good or not

S

Isn't that statement elitism personified????

[Simon Majumdar]

or knowledge of whether it was any good or not

S

Isn't that statement elitism personified????

In what sense?

Please explain

S

Edited January 13, 2003 by Simon Majumdar (log)

[Tonyfinch]

I agree with whoever said a few pages back that the word "elite" is being used far too loosely here.

It does not mean the same as arrogant or snobbish or superior or expert. You can be all those things and not be part of an elite.

Elites are essentially designed to exclude those who are not its members. They are neccessarily restrictive and work to further their own influence and power over those who are not its members. Elites always have a vested interest in their own perpetuation .The terms under which you can become part of an elite are defined by the elite itself. The aim of an elite is always to maintain power in its particular chosen field.

Membership of egullet is open and unrestricted. People choose to be members and choose to post. It is therefore the opposite of "elitist".

Having knowledge of food, wine and restaurants and having a strong opinion about them does not make you "elitist". It might make you bloody annoying but it doesn't make you elitist.

[Adam Balic]

Adam, those are interesting figures you produced. Thanks for that.

Do they not say more about the healthiness of the food that people eat than about their interest in food ? I accept that poorer people will spend less on food, and that cheaper food is often less healthy. But I'm not convinced there is any strong correlation between "healthy" and "good quality" or "interesting". It seems to me that a huge proportion of "gourmet" food contains large amounts of butter, which is considered very unhealthy. Similarly, animal fat is much prized by some gourmets. Frying is perfectly acceptable within the gourmet context of "good food" isn't it ? As is sugar.

Of course it is accepted that those gourmet foods which are determined by rarity, such as caviar and truffles and Kobe steak, are automatically denied to poorer people. But even that doesn't stop them being interested in it.

Macrosan - I thik that you are correct, I was never trying to indicate that poor people are un-able to have an interest in food (that would be elitist), only if it was possible to maintain an interest in the face of high cost of the products in the UK and the difficulty in obtaining good quality raw produce.

The data set was to illustrate that health and diet are strongly correlated with class in the UK. It mybe difficult to maintain an interest in food, if you have difficulty maintaining even a moderately healthy diet in general, due to the restraints of you class.

I think that it would be a very terrible thing indeed if a low income bracket family/individual was unable to create meals that are interesting and healthy in the UK.

Maybe this could be a new thread? Let us see if we can create meals for a family of five from low, middle and high income brackets and see what obvious diffrences stand out.