Fine Dining vs. Cheap Eats, Continued

[SobaAddict70]

Steve P.: I thought a WILFburger Special could be had at Wilfrid's place.

Silly me.

SA

[Steve Plotnicki]

My lord I just realized that this thread has over 600 posts. Just to prove to people that a bottle of Mouton Rothschild is more valuable than a milkshake. I love eGullet.

[Wilfrid]

Tee hee.

Only time for telegram-like response.

Steve P.: Do not believe this stuff is subjective, never have and never will. You are fighting windmills. Of course most wine is more complex than most beer. You equate complex with "better", which is arbitrary and there are a million counter-examples, from Robert Schonfeld's figs to minimalism in art and music.

And make up your mind - either wine and beer are unlike things we can't compare (I agree), or you can go on about their comparative qualities (which you did). Ditto for French/Chinese/Indian cuisines: you flip back and forth on that one like a ping pong ball.

You still hold the pure Plotnickist position on pork loin, cashmere, premier cru burgundy, etc, that it's their refinement that sets their cost, not their scarcity in comparison with pork belly, regular wool and vin ordinaire. I suspect you know you're wrong, so I'm bored arguing that one.

Must dash - I have an appointment to eat weird, unevolved shit.

[Wilfrid]

My lord I just realized that this thread has over 600 posts. Just to prove to people that a bottle of Mouton Rothschild is more valuable than a milkshake. I love eGullet.

                     

Darn simultaneous posting. It's to prove to you that if the Mouton Rothschild were produced in the same volume as milk, the price differential would be negligible. The price is not set by an elite, independently of supply and demand.

[Steve Plotnicki]

I'm just happy my position about how things get codified has itself been codified. Sounds like a position to reckon with.

Robert S. has not offerred an example of how less complex is better, he's saying that sometimes simple things have greater complexity than more complex preparations. No disagreement from me there although I think in general it is quite difficult to find cases where it is true. But of course there's that perfect peach.

As to my refinement argument, I know I'm right so there . But in case you didn't realize it, the reason that vin ordinaire is so cheap is because there is so much of it. And the reason for that is it's ordinaire. If it was special it wouldn't be ordinaire any more. Then it wouldn't be so cheap.

You see people don't buy things because they are scarce. They buy things because of their unusual qualities. But what people will do because of scarcity is pay more for the item. But they won't pay more unless the item is special to begin with.

[John Whiting]

I mean, look at what they did to ice cream two or three years ago (Tabasco ice cream, anyone?).

I wrote this in 1998. It was published in Dublin in SQ Magazine:

SORBET DIABOLIQUE

Serve it up as a tourment goule between the guacomole and the chiles

rellenos, and get out of town fast.

1 ample garlic bulb, separated and peeled

1 tsp (more or less) Tabasco sauce

1 litre tomato juice

1/2 tsp sugar

1/4 teaspoon salt

1 dash of Worcestershire sauce

1 splash of vodka or gin

Liquidise. If your blender is small, reserve some of the tomato juice and stir in separately. Freeze in an ice cream maker and store in a lead-shielded container.

Welcome to the club. Now there's one less of them and one more of us.

[John Whiting]

Steve P writes:

the reason that vin ordinaire is so cheap is because there is so much of it.

Steve, what would this suggest about the market value of your prose?

[yvonne johnson]

Steve, what would this suggest about the market value of your prose?  

That may depend on whether the prose was deemed (by the expert in all things literary, of course) as silky as cashmere or as rough as Shetland wool. I'm no expert--due to my nationality and up-bringing, you understand-- but I detect a certain coarseness. Lack of refinement, perhaps.

[Steve Plotnicki]

I didn't say Scottish.

[hollywood]

I believe that the difference of opinion here is that you think that quality in items we eat, drink wear or use otherwise is totally subjective and contrived by man. And I believe that quality is something that happens naturally though an organic process. The only part humans  play is to notice those qualities and appreciate them.

Let's see, how do you explain the vacillating preference for hardwood vs. carpet? First, the rich had hardwood. The poor didn't. Then, the rich had carpet and the poor had hardwood. Now, the rich have/want hardwood again.

Not a food example, you say? Spaghetti. There used to be an inverse correlation between spaghetti consumption and socioeconomic status. The more you ate, the poorer you were. Today, I doubt it.

Your "theory" ignores fads, trends, conformity, the herd mentality, etc. Read some Tom Wolfe.

This "organic process" what the hell is this? Plato's theory of the forms? So, there's a form of a filet mignon? With all respect, you can eat theory. I'll settle for the real thing.

[helenas]

"Prior to the nineteenth century, only widows, orphans, and servants ate lobster. And in some parts of New England, serving lobster to prison inmates more than once a week was forbidden by law, as doing so was considered cruel and unusual punishment" (quoted from "The Lobster Chronicles")

[Steve Plotnicki]

Hollywood - I love responses on the merits. You are describing all man made stuff that is fashionable and then went out of style. Wall to wall carpet will never have the depth and complexity that a nice hand woven rug will have. So what happened? The market corrected itself to the better quality item. Same with hardwood floors. When I lived in Forest Hills I had carpeted floors but when I moved to Manhattan I made sure that I had parquet. Same thing.

I think you have just raised a different demand side argument than the ones that have been raised. Because even when wall to wall carpet was in vogue, a well made area rug was still profoundly beautiful. Less people might have been educated to that 40 years ago and they might have been cheaper to buy than they are now, but their beauty and quality wasn't ever in question. Somehow great Persian rugs or beautiful Ivan da Silva Bruhns art deco rugs were always considered beautiful. And the artisans who made them were always recognized for their special abilites. The only thing that changed was the price.

But if your point is that wall to wall carpet in its heyday sold for more money than an area rug, surely you must know that isn't true. It might be true of the worst area rugs, but there are area rugs that were always extremely expensive. Worthy of hanging in the Metropolitan Museum of Art. You know you can point to "the herd" as an example that people do stupid things, but that doesn't mean they have any impact on determining the price or quality oif things that are not stupid.

Helena - Well I wouldn't want to eat lobster more than once a week either. Hell, I don't want to eat it more than 2-3 times a year. So I have rachmunis for those prison inmates.

[Robert Schonfeld]

Robert S. has not offerred an example of how less complex is better, he's saying that sometimes simple things have greater complexity than more complex preparations.

Life was so - dare I say it - simple, before this thread.

I am saying that I find a plate of handmade pasta made with eggs from chickens raised in the courtyard and dressed with locally made butter and sage from the garden, and eaten in the cook's kitchen to be as enjoyable or more enjoyable than any haute creation you may wish to pose opposite, in any setting you choose. I don't know, and I don't care whether it is better or intrinsically more or less complex according to the terms of war on this thread.

I'm also saying that, when the vine-ripened, field grown New Jersey tomatoes are in the market, I intend to eat them as often as possible. While their price will decline as their supply in the market grows, the outstanding mozzarella from Stew Leonard's in Yonkers that I have just discovered, will likely remain at $5.99 a pound, versus $3.99 a pound for the estimable version at Agata & Valentina on the Upper East Side of Manhattan. I will most willingly pay for Stew Leonard's product to go with my tomatoes.

And throughout this period, Mazal and I will go to Blue Hill or Jean Georges or one of the other faves a few times and have lots of fun eating and drinking all sorts of complex stuff. Not more fun than eating mozzarella and tomatoes; different fun.

[g.johnson]

Plotnicki: Thank you for your helpful review. I have revised my summary of your arugment according to your suggestions and trust it is now acceptable.

1. It’s OK to compare haute cuisine with home cooking because they’re so similar but we can’t compare pig bellies to loin because they’re so different.

2. Anyone going anywhere in Europe passed through France and dropped off a packet of spaghetti, but didn’t bother taking any foie gras home with them, for unspecified reasons which reflect badly on them.

3. Although there aren’t many French modernists, France is central to modernism because Picasso lived in Paris for a couple of years.

4. The price of an item is independent of scarcity but reflects its true worth because it’s set by the hidden fork of the connoisseur.

Makes much more sense now.

[Gavin Jones]

You would not let it lie.

[g.johnson]

Sorry. Hangs head in shame.

[Jinmyo]

How much for that steak Pie?

[Fat Guy]

We're nowhere near the pie stage, Jin. I'm just now wrapping up my rout of the more-expensive-always-equals-more-better part of the argument and bringing the more-complex-always-equals-more-better part into my crosshairs. This is easily going to require another 500 posts. And that's just to get us to talking about the cheap-eats-ain't-interesting part of the argument, which is the real argument that we can't get to until we dismantle all the bullshit. After that is done, if it doesn't kill me first, you and I can relax, spent, and enjoy a piece of pie together. When the history of eGullet is written, let it never be said I ignored the belly of a pig or a crazy contention by Plotnicki.

[Sandra Levine]

You're a man of steel, Steve.

[Steve Plotnicki]

"It's to prove to you that if the Mouton Rothschild were produced in the same volume as milk, the price differential would be negligible. The price is not set by an elite, independently of supply and demand. "

Wilfrid - If they made unlimited amounts of Mouton that wouldn't change how people use it. People still wouldn't use it at breakfast. Let's take me as an example. I can drink a First Growth any time I want to. That's really not much different than the supply being unlimited. Yet I drink them very sparingly. You know why that is? There just aren't that many occassions that warrant drinking a wine of that caliber. And I don't mean as a matter of expense, I mean as a matter of matching food and wine.

That's the part you keep missing, the gastronomic part. You don't use Rayas Chateauneuf-du-Pape for an occasion that only merits drinking a Cote de Rhone. And conversely when at a black truffle extravaganza in Provence, one might want to splurge for a 1978 La Chapelle. But I don't want to drink '78 La Chapelle with a ham sandwich. That's where your glass of milk comes in handy. No matter how much more Mouton they produced, it won't change when and where people drink wine or what occassion Mouton is appropriate for.

Robert S. - Well I'm glad you intend on eating those things. I hope you enjoy them. But what that has to do with this thread I don't know. Anyone can eat those things. In fact anyone can make them. They don't exactly qualify as cheap eats as defined by Fat Guy. Nor would they be defined that way by me either.

G. - *The resentful argument* ( I need a macro for this)

[jaybee]

Steve, Wilfrid just finished copius amounts of tripe, cows foot, eyeball, lamb kidney, heart, spleen and liver at Ali's. It was a very complex meal, filled with events that alter and illuminate our time, and I was there. Many bottles of wine of both colors accompanied this feast, so I don't think you can expect a reply until at least the morning.

Why I am still here is a mystery to me. I suspect that I'm afraid to go to sleep lest the lamb's eyeball will exact it's revenge in my sleep. I will schedule a colonoscopy soon, and I expect the Dr. to say "in all my years. I've looked up many an asshole, but this is the first one that's looked back at me."

The meal cost $30 a head (no pun inended) (wait, yes, it was), thereby disproving your theory that complex, haute cuisine must perforce be more expensive than simpler fare. Comparing heart to heart, liver to liver, spleen to spleen, this was a haute as I've had of this genre, (and I understand you have too) and at the price, worth twice as much.

erp, urp,

[Steve Plotnicki]

Jaybee - I said complex, not unusual. But it sounds like fun anyway. How did you all fit in the restaurant at the same time?

[jaybee]

How did you all fit in the restaurant at the same time?

Cheek by jowl, by spleen, by kidney. It was cozy. A truly amazing place! Merit un detour and a return. Ali is a charmer.

[Beachfan]

But I don't want to drink '78 La Chapelle with a ham sandwich. That's where your glass of milk comes in handy.

I'm not sure that's a sound argument. When you throw in the traife/guilty pleasure angle, the ham sandwich with milk sounds more complex than the ham sandwich with Rayas.

(even if the guilt is long gone, it was the original paving stone of your neural pleasure pathway).

[jaybee]

After you left, I gave him a proper foxtrot lesson. Dang, I love that man.

Good. I hope the trots, fox or otherwise don't visit me tonight.