Hoisin sauce

[tommy]

i end up buying hoisin sauce at the supermarket when i don't have a chance to get to chinatown to find a brand that looks "authentic." however, the sauces vary so much in flavor that i'm not even sure what the stuff is supposed to taste like!

looking through my pantry now, and reviewing the ingredients lists, i see that they are oftentimes made from completely different ingredients. most are heavy in some sort of sweetner. they seem to have varying amounts of soy product, and some contain tomato paste. the bottom line is, they are all quite different in flavor.

what should one look for on a label? if anyone could go as far as to suggest a brand, that wouldn't hurt either.

[jhlurie]

You know, the lad may have a good question here. I've never really thought much about it, but what IS the taste of Hoisin? I couldn't describe it if asked.

[tommy]

You know, the lad may have a good question here.  I've never really thought much about it, but what IS the taste of Hoisin?  I couldn't describe it if asked.

the taste of sweet fermented soy my darling. although korean bean paste is sweet fermented soy but tastes quite different. now i've *really* confused myself.

[jhlurie]

The taste of sweet fermented soy? Yes, we are going to have to do better than that I think.

I'm not even going NEAR the "darling" comment. Except to say that I'm thinking mrs. tommy must be on another business trip and you've been hitting the wine bottle tonight!

[tommy]

Except to say that I'm thinking mrs. tommy must be on another business trip and you've been hitting the wine bottle tonight! 

how do you explain every other night?

after we sort this hoisin thing out (and, although you're cute and all, i really don't think just the two of us will be getting very far on it), i'm going to ask about oyster sauce. it is neither made from oysters nor is it good on oysters.

[pjs]

what should one look for on a label?

Lots of indecipherable chinese characters.

PJ

[Anna N]

I know I have a jar of hoisin sauce that has a nasty mouth feel - as if it's got a lot of uncooked cornstarch in it. I am desperately trying to re-trace a hint I read very recently about how to improve bottled hoisin sauce by adding a few ingredients. I will intensify my search and if I find it, I will post it.

[Sandra Levine]

Irene Kuo in The Key to Chinese Cooking says it's made from soybeans, flour, sugar, salt, garlic and chili peppers.

[jhlurie]

Irene Kuo in The Key to Chinese Cooking says it's made from soybeans, flour, sugar, salt, garlic and chili peppers.

Okay, I don't have a bottle in front of me, but I certainly don't recall seeing a mere six ingredients!

Maybe Irene meant "should be made".

In a way that list of ingredients doesn't fully explain the taste though, since the flour seems to be the only item that isn't in virtually every other soy-based sauce.

Edited December 31, 2002 by jhlurie (log)

[pjs]

My jar of Koon Chun brand's list of ingredients is: Sugar, Vinegar, Soya Bean, Water, Salt, Wheat Flour, Garlic, Sesame Seed, Chili, Spices and good old FD&C Red #40.

PJ

Edited January 1, 2003 by pjs (log)

[Human Bean]

I think I've had Koon Chun; it's basically sugar. Try Lee Kum Kee if you can find it, it's much better.

[Jinmyo]

Lee Kum Kee sauces are generally quite good. If memory serves me, their hoisin contains sweet potatoes and sesame seeds.

[cabrales]

For me, hoisin sauce is not a useful ingredient for many Chinese dishes. It has a pronounced taste that can overwhelm many other ingredients within the composition of a given dish. It is pasty and, except for counterbalancing the fattiness of Peking Duck skin (when used in moderation and with a lot of scallion to mitigate the HSS's effects), is something I generally do not take in. In many recipes, even oyster sauce (which is itself rather strong in character) might be better than HSS. What dishes do members think HSS augments?

[blackduff]

Chinese ribs wouldn't taste the same without Hoisin sauce.

BlackDuff

[Jinmyo]

cabrales, I don't use it often but make it when I do:

4 parts shoyu, 2 parts crushed fermented black beans, 1 part mirin, 1 part honey, 2 parts Chinese black vinegar,1 part crushed garlic, 2 parts sesame oil, 2 parts chile oil, bit of white and black pepper.

I'll use this sparingly on ribs, pork roast, even salmon. But more usually as a dipping sauce or to smear inside lettuce cups.

[jhlurie]

to smear inside lettuce cups.

As long as those lettuce cups don't approach sandwich bread, maggiethecat and g.johnson might eat it!

Edited January 2, 2003 by jhlurie (log)

[eatingwitheddie]

HOISIN SAUCE

Sold in a jar or a can, hoisin sauce is a sweet and savory soy bean-based paste that is made by several different manufacturers according to similar but different proprietary recipes.

It is rarely used on its own, but is typically mixed with flavorings like soy sauce, sugar, vinegar, wine, and sesame oil to create a sauce for a stir-fry dish. Its two most well known uses (in Chinese cuisine) are as a condiment for Peking Duck and as part of a marinade for BBQ’d ribs.

I love the flavor of hoisin sauce and first encountered it in the form of Beef w. Hoisin Sauce at NY’s Shun Lee Dynasty Restaurant in 1966. In fact it was the flavor of hoisin that first woke me up a to the world of hi-quality Chinese cooking and inspired me to seek more knowledge. In my experience I have always found it to be a popular flavor, and one that is uniquely Chinese.

When wrapping crispy Peking Duck skin in pancakes, a scant tablespoon of hoisin is first smeared on the wrapper before rolling. In this preparation the hoisin is typically first thinned with a little bit of water, and then flavored with a touch of sherry or Shaoshing, as well as a small amount of sugar and some sesame oil.

To use hoisin as the base of a stir-fry sauce, briefly sauté some minced garlic (2t) and 2 chopped scallions (note NO ginger), then add 2 T of hoisin and any chile paste (if you are cooking a spicy dish). Cook for 10 seconds then add a seasoning sauce of 2 T soy (Kikkoman is my choice), 1 T Shaoshing, 1 1/2 T sugar, 1 t white vinegar, 1/2 t MSG (if desired) and enough cornstarch slurry (2 t maybe) to thicken the sauce. Now add whatever precooked (stir-fried) meat and/or vegetables you want to the sauce. Mix for about 30 seconds, until the food is completely coated and the sauce has the right viscosity (you may want to add more cornstarch if it is too thin or a drop of wine if it is too thick). Sprinkle the dish with a little sesame oil and serve.

As far as different brands go, I know that someone previously posted that Koon Chun is all sugar (and by implication has no taste). I would suggest revisiting the can; it works really well for me. I like Lee Kum Kee brand’s hoisin as well, though I find myself using it mostly for a Shanghai crab dish that I prepare. I prefer the Koon Chun brand, which I find more richly flavored, for meat and poultry.

[SteveW]

Ed, you mention about making a Shanghai crab dish. So live Shanghai crabs are available in NYC? What Shanghai crab dish do you make with hoisin sauce?

-----------------

Steve

[Human Bean]

As far as different brands go, I know that someone previously posted that Koon Chun is all sugar (and by implication has no taste).

As the 'someone,' I feel compelled to clarify my remark. I oversimplifed my description; I didn't mean that it had no flavor at all, but to me, the sweetness seemed too dominant. I don't have any Koon Chun on hand at the moment, but I do have the Lee Kum Kee. I tried a bit of it on a tasting spoon several times last night and this morning. Although sugar and sweet potatoes are the first two ingredients listed, sweetness is only one element in a complex and varying flavor. The sweetness is evident, but surrenders to a complex set of memories rather than a distint flavor; memories of various duck and pork dishes in the past. It may have a bit too much five-spice though. After the other tases fade, an aftertaste of saltiness becomes apparent. These flavors are somewhat less evident in an actual dish, where the hoisin is just one element of the preparation.

Maybe I'm just too sensitive to sugar though. It seems to be a common flaw in run-of-the-mill Cantonese-American restaurants to serve common meat & veg stir-frys that have a quite noticeable sweetness in the sauce. I have no idea why they do this; maybe they think they're accomodating American tastes, but I don't give such restaurants a second visit.

I claim no particular authority with respect to Chinese food, but I know what I like, and obvious sweetness in most Chinese dishes is one thing I definitely don't like. One of the most interesting parts of Chinese cooking is the subtle balance of basic tastes: sweet, sour, bitter, salty, hot. Sweetness as a standout element of main dishes is rather rare in 'real' Chinese cooking, AFAIK. (Please correct me if I'm wrong here.)

[Degustation]

I used to buy Lee Kum Kee, but I think the quality of their hoisin has deteriorated. I don't think they started out using sweet potatoes as a base for the condiment but I don't remember. I just know that one day I noticed that the flavour and texture was different and I switched brands.

I now use Yuet Heung Yuen and the list of ingredients are: Soya Bean, Sugar, Flour, Vinegar, Salt, Garlic, Sesame Seed, Chili, Spices and FD&C Red #40 (artificial colour). I remember my dad used to purchase hoisin that came in large cans (may have been a commercial brand) and the flavour and texture was very different from what I've tasted in the jars. It was not as sugary and the consistency was coarser.

[Anna N]

To use hoisin as the base of a stir-fry sauce, briefly sauté some minced garlic (2t) and 2 chopped scallions (note NO ginger), then add 2 T of hoisin and any chile paste (if you are cooking a spicy dish). Cook for 10 seconds then add a seasoning sauce of 2 T soy (Kikkoman is my choice), 1 T Shaoshing, 1 1/2 T sugar, 1 t white vinegar, 1/2 t MSG (if desired) and enough cornstarch slurry (2 t maybe) to thicken the sauce. Now add whatever precooked (stir-fried) meat and/or vegetables you want to the sauce. Mix for about 30 seconds, until the food is completely coated and the sauce has the right viscosity (you may want to add more cornstarch if it is too thin or a drop of wine if it is too thick). Sprinkle the dish with a little sesame oil and serve.

And so I am snowbound here on the Canadian side of Lake Ontario. Ed's suggestion for a stir-fry sauce using hoisin as a base, piqued my curiosity as I have so much trouble with rather bland stir-fries. But the larder is pretty much empty and a shopping trip not a good idea in this storm. I had on hand some egg-roll wrappers, some pre-cooked shrimp, a few snow peas, a few green onions, a carrot and all of the other ingredients for the stir-fry sauce. I made Ed's sauce and then did a quick stir-fry of the shrimp etc. Added Ed's sauce right at the end. Stuffed a couple of egg-roll wrappers and deep-fried them - quite, quite heavenly. Ate them hot and crispy from the deep fryer - no added dipping sauce. Will make more tonight for The Dane and I - have to compromise on our usual candle-light and wine dinner due to the storm so I'm serving a multi-cultural "tapas" type meal - the egg rolls will fit right in. Thanks, Ed. By the way, the hoisin sauce I have is Y&Y brand - don't know if it's good or bad as hoisin sauces go.

[eatingwitheddie]

By the way, the hoisin sauce I have is Y&Y brand - don't know if it's good or bad as hoisin sauces go.

Never heard of Y & Y but if you got heavenly results sounds good to me. Where is it from?

Nothing like cooking from the cupboard on a cold grey day -- tastes better that way.

Contact me again if I can be of more help.

Happy New Year and stay warm, Ed

[Anna N]

By the way, the hoisin sauce I have is Y&Y brand - don't know if it's good or bad as hoisin sauces go.

Never heard of Y & Y but if you got heavenly results sounds good to me. Where is it from?

Nothing like cooking from the cupboard on a cold grey day -- tastes better that way.

Contact me again if I can be of more help.

Happy New Year and stay warm, Ed

Happy New Year to you too, Ed.

Storm is finally abating, I think, but car still in ICU!

Y&Y product of Singapore - ingredients: Sugar, water, soy bean, Salt, modified tapioca starch, garlic, sesame paste, vinegar, lemon, caramel colour, chili, citric acid.

Says on jar: Chinese Canadian Entrepreneur Awards 1997.

What that has to do with taste I have no idea.

But The Dane wolfed down two egg rolls - and if you knew The Dane you'd be as surprised as I was - he doesn't "do" egg rolls. He asked for a repeat performance - that's the equivalent of 4 Michelin stars in my book! So, many thanks for your suggestion for a stir-fry sauce - will experiment further.

[Anna N]

Contact me again if I can be of more help.

Happy New Year and stay warm, Ed

You egulleteers are creating a monster! Had some leftovers from last night's "tapas" menu: stuffed chicken breast Chinese style - adapted from a Martin Yan recipe. Remember now, this is someone who could barely boil an egg without consulting a recipe just a couple of months ago! Anyway, I looked at the leftovers, chopped up the stuffed chicken breast quite finely, cooked up another small batch of Ed's stir-fry sauce, painted it on a couple of egg roll wrappers, put a small pile of the chopped up leftovers on it, added a half teaspoon more of the sauce and some finely chopped scallions, wrapped and deep-fried. A nice tasty little lunch for moi.

So, why am I back - looking to Ed for a dipping sauce for egg rolls. The plum sauces, sweet and sour sauces, etc. available at local take-outs or on grocery store shelves are too sickly sweet for me. What sort of sauce would you serve say, with a meat-based eggroll stuffing and would you suggest something different for one based on shrimp?

Thanks, as always.

[Jinmyo]

Anna, congratulations again.

Perhaps that will just be my signature line soon.