Pasta, Brass Die Better?

[Syzygies]

I'd like to point out that you originally referred to the metal dies as being brass

Yes, my bad for also being swept into this confusion. Here is the complete die catalog for pastabiz.com, vendor for my Torchio : complete-die-catalog.pdf. The contemporary choices are brass or teflon.

If one actually uses brass or teflon dies, one experiences a difference. The goal of theory should be to explain this observation.

[dcarch]

There is no clear distinction between brass and bronze. They are sometimes used interchangeably.

dcarch

[gfweb]

So do the metal dies (dice?) get hot during use?

[dcarch]

So do the metal dies (dice?) get hot during use?

I don't think so. The pasta extrusion is at a very low speed.

I was at an aluminum extrusion factory, amazing that hard aluminum ingots just get squeezed out the die like spaghetti. The die gets very hot because they have to heat up the aluminum.

dcarch

[Dakki]

The way I understand it is bronzes are pretty much any copper alloy, bronze with no modifier (eg "aluminium bronze") is -usually- copper/tin, and brass is copper/zinc. So I'd say brass is arguably a bronze.

[jvalentino]

So do the metal dies (dice?) get hot during use?

I don't think so. The pasta extrusion is at a very low speed.

I was at an aluminum extrusion factory, amazing that hard aluminum ingots just get squeezed out the die like spaghetti. The die gets very hot because they have to heat up the aluminum.

dcarch

They do get hot even with a slow extrusion. The machine we use has a water cooled head and we knead with cool water. High temps from the head, die or dough are the enemy of artisanal pasta.

[rotuts]

maybe the texture does or does not have sauce cling to it.

maybe its just that extra texture and drying methods in the mouth-feel that one might be after?

Edited October 7, 2013 by rotuts (log)

[dcarch]

So do the metal dies (dice?) get hot during use?

I don't think so. The pasta extrusion is at a very low speed.

I was at an aluminum extrusion factory, amazing that hard aluminum ingots just get squeezed out the die like spaghetti. The die gets very hot because they have to heat up the aluminum.

dcarch

They do get hot even with a slow extrusion. The machine we use has a water cooled head and we knead with cool water. High temps from the head, die or dough are the enemy of artisanal pasta.

Yes, come to think of it. There is a lot of friction and that can generate heat.

dcarch

[huiray]

The point is that there can be a true side-by-side comparison of the PASTAS produced using different dies.

Yes, if the materials used to make the pasta is the same in the two cases and the handling of the product from the dies is also the same. In which case the die is the variable and the comparison involves only the dies.

jvalentino describes his experience in an earlier post where he appears to have used the same dough mixture to make his pasta, but used different dies, and suggested a reason for why dcarch might not have observed a difference while he did.

@jvalentino: was this the case? Did you use a modern bronze die (as distinct from an antique bronze die - see previous comments in above posts) versus a modern die made of something else?

You cannot eat dies, so you need not worry about comparing them in any sort of pseudo-scientific fashion, and all of the faddish obsession with Modernist Cuisine and sous vide notwithstanding, while you can certainly apply science and technology to food preparation, it will inevitably be trumped by the wildly variable human palate. Taste being subjective, one is always free to prefer Mueller's spaghetti swimming in meat sauce. That is no reason not to strive for results that a majority, or at least a majority of like-minded (or palated) individuals, find to be superior; however, the final judgment of superiority will always reside in the mouth of the individual taster...

No one has said anything about eating dies. Odd deflection. I thought we *were* comparing the product from the dies.

But of course personal preferences inform the individual palate. Cultural preferences in a general sense can factor in too. I doubt we are arguing about those two things. The discussion about whether there is a difference between pastas produced from different dies (whether there is, or not) is, after all, also not the same thing as whether an individual prefers one over the other.

(((Shrug))) Ehh, to each his/her own and the bases of comparison for something of interest.

Edited October 10, 2013 by huiray (log)

[dcarch]

I apologize to those of you who find this discussion boring, irrelevant and meaningless, but I am interested in finding out the answer, before I pay extra money for one type or the other when I buy pasta. I refuse to let advertisements to tell me which one I should feel will taste better.

In comparing the two, plastic die vs. bronze die, the geometry of the die must be completely identical in every way. For instance, if one is thicker than the other, the comparison will not be valid.

In my test, I use my lath to machine two identical discs, one bronze and one with a cutting board soft non-stick plastic. I secured the two discs together and used my drill press to drill holes through the two discs at the same time using the same bit. Each hole I drilled, I flipped the discs over to drill the next hole from the opposite direction, so that the directions for drilling holes are the same for both discs. Drilling was done on low speed RPM and well lubricated so temperature was not a factor.

The surface textures produced by the two dies, using the same dough, at the same temperature, using my home pasta extrusion machine, were identical.

I had only tested two dough recipes, therefore I acknowledge my results were only valid for the two recipes I had tested.

I also recognize that my home pasta machine has limited compression force, which can also have unknown effects.

dcarch

[Mjx]

dcarch, that is insane, and if I had a hat on, I'd be taking it off to you. No, that's not sarcasm.

I'm wondering whether the hole made in the plastic die is of the same smoothness as would be obtained by an industrial punch (or whatever they use).

There's no question that pasta can vary considerably in surface roughness, but I'm guessing that the die material is not all-important: the smoothness/roughness of the margins of the holes almost certainly covers a range for each material.

[Shel_B]

I apologize to those of you who find this discussion boring, irrelevant and meaningless, but I am interested in finding out the answer, before I pay extra money for one type or the other when I buy pasta. I refuse to let advertisements to tell me which one I should feel will taste better.

There is no need or reason to apologize. I've read every post and watched the videos and gone to other referenced sites. I've learned a few things, and the results I now get when making pasta have improved somewhat, and my understanding of what goes into producing good pasta has increased as well.

Edited October 10, 2013 by Shel_B (log)

[Dakki]

In comparing the two, plastic die vs. bronze die, the geometry of the die must be completely identical in every way. For instance, if one is thicker than the other, the comparison will not be valid.

I think a valid comparison would be better achieved if the experiment took into account design differences (if any) between the two types. There are probably differences besides just the material used. Shouldn't we compare common, commercial dies? Or better yet, industrial dies on an industrial machine? (I realize this is not feasible for us, just thinking that would be the best way to test this).

[dcarch]

dcarch, that is insane, and if I had a hat on, I'd be taking it off to you. No, that's not sarcasm.

I'm wondering whether the hole made in the plastic die is of the same smoothness as would be obtained by an industrial punch (or whatever they use).

There's no question that pasta can vary considerably in surface roughness, but I'm guessing that the die material is not all-important: the smoothness/roughness of the margins of the holes almost certainly covers a range for each material.

I am insane. :-)

I am very interested in this topic because I think there are many more possibilities to explore and possibly to go beyond what is considered "The Best", pasta, once we understand the basics.

The following technologies are very interesting to create very complex holes in dies for extrusions:

1. Electro-discharge machining (you can do at home).

2. Laser cutting (not that expensive)

3. Digital 3-D printing, (soon)

4. High pressure water jet metal cutting (been around for may years. Yes, water can cut metal)

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If micro surface texture is so desirable and important to pasta taste, why don't they just make flat (noodles) pasta using rollers? You can get any surface texture you want using rollers.

dcarch

[rotuts]

"" The surface textures produced by the two dies, using the same dough, at the same temperature, using my home pasta extrusion machine, were identical. """

that's very interesting. the point Ive taken is "does one" prefer 'rougher' or 'smoother' for the pasta surface.

cant one taste the difference with a slow dry vs a fast dry.

then pick. there are clear differences in pasta surfaces.

[Shel_B]

the point Ive taken is "does one" prefer 'rougher' or 'smoother' for the pasta surface.

cant one taste the difference with a slow dry vs a fast dry.

then pick. there are clear differences in pasta surfaces.

I generally prefer the rougher textured pastas, but that's because they taste better to me - a fuller, richer taste. These pastas are usually slow dried.