Sous vide Beef Bourguignon

[Samo154]

Hello first post here! I recently purchased a poly science immersion circulator and decided to do beef bourg sous vide. I had a look at a few posts on here and decided to try it at 61c for 8 hours but it was still tough and still tough after 24 hours! The meat used was chuck.

Thanks in advance for any help

[rotuts]

In teresting question. I was thinking of asking this myself as this type of thing has begun to interest me.

Chuck ( shoulder ) is a collection of muscles, generally tough, but tasty. some are not tough at all : the blade, etc.

if you are using the group of muscles, at least 48 maybe even 72 hrs are needed for tenderness.

Ive personally abandoned "chuck" as a cut for SV: this is the only cut of meat ( aside from lamb ) that Ive gotten 'meally' meat.

I was initially attracted to the cut for its value and flavor. I now look for value in single muscles and no longer get the meally meat.

that is not to say you should give up on the cut, just realize that its a group of muscles that may behave differently over a prolonged SV.

im currently interested in SV 'stews' realizing that separating the veg from the meat might be a good idea.

i dont know yet the proper place for the wine, other than in my glass while cooking.

perhaps in the Pressure Cooker ( PC ) ?

there is a recent thread on PC vs SV for stew, braise etc look for that one. Ive learned a lot there on this subject.

Edited October 4, 2013 by rotuts (log)

[scubadoo97]

I would put chuck in the same class as short ribs which are done for like 48+ hrs/60C

[Samo154]

Thanks for the replies what about doing a higher temp? I see Keller does ox cheeks at 82 would a temp of 70+ help? What is the perfect braising temp sous vide?

[rotuts]

peek back at the thread I mentioned above. dont know how to give you the ref. some nice replies on temp and beef cooking.

baldwin suggests 160 as the temp for 'well done' meat. for chuck :

medium-rare 130 48 hrs +

medium 140 48 hrs +

well, slow 160 24 hrs

well, fast 175 10 - 14 hrs

good luck

[Samo154]

Excellent thanks, I ended up having to throw it in the oven to get that fork crumberling texture beef bourg should have. I guess a longer time would have achieved this sous vide.

[rotuts]

what did you do with the wine?

[Martin Fisher]

Coincidentally, I was researching this a couple days ago.

I wouldn't think that chuck-eye would need much time sous vide....it's naturally quite tender.

[rlummis]

If the problem is toughness, the melting temperature of collagen in beef is generally given as about 170•F, which is approximately 77•C. You might try a temperature in that range.

[scubadoo97]

If the problem is toughness, the melting temperature of collagen in beef is generally given as about 170•F, which is approximately 77•C. You might try a temperature in that range.

Collagen melts at much lower temperatures. It just takes longer

[FrogPrincesse]

I am currently working on a traditional bourguignon (the meat is marinating in wine as I type) and wondering what the advantage of a sous-vide bourguignon would be? For traditional stews that can be left unattended in the oven (mine will be going at 325F for 3 to 4 hours), I don't really understand what sous vide can improve but I am curious...

[rotuts]

take a look at this thread, which some Intrepid Member Started:

http://forums.egullet.org/topic/145784-pressure-cooker-vs-sv-for-stew-braise-etc/

it has a lot of info on how temp / time / affects the meat.

im hoping to Parlay this info into SV + PC 'bourguignon' this fall and winter, with the hopes that I can then freeze the beef and the

Veg+Jus separately for future use as needed.

Ill have to find out about wine PC though ...

[Martin Fisher]

Raymond Blanc reduces the wine to 1/2 or 1/3 and then marinates the beef in the wine for 12 hours.

I'll likely do the same.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7cs1XaHRu4

[rotuts]

do you know which series and episode this comes from? BBC ? I have them all and will look at this one intensely

is from the Hungry Frenchman series?

I have not seen RB do SV, but he must have a Secret Room at the Rest. for this.

if you want to do your meat SV for the time it takes your cut to be perfectly tender as it suits you,

Im guessing the wine reduction will alter its structure significantly, and not for the better ...

Edited October 4, 2013 by rotuts (log)

[Martin Fisher]

Yeah, the BBC program 'The Very Hungry Frenchman.'

I'll likely attempt it in the pressure cooker, not sous vide.

Edited October 4, 2013 by DiggingDogFarm (log)

[rotuts]

like to see how it Turns Out.

cheers

[FrogPrincesse]

take a look at this thread, which some Intrepid Member Started:

http://forums.egullet.org/topic/145784-pressure-cooker-vs-sv-for-stew-braise-etc/

it has a lot of info on how temp / time / affects the meat.

im hoping to Parlay this info into SV + PC 'bourguignon' this fall and winter, with the hopes that I can then freeze the beef and the

Veg+Jus separately for future use as needed.

Ill have to find out about wine PC though ...

rotuts - I just re-read the thread which mostly deals with a comparison of pressure-cooking vs. sous vide rather than traditional techniques. The additional time needed for sous-vide as well as a "lack of nuance", "muddying of taste and texture", and not "produc[ing] the wonderful sauce" are mentioned.

So what is the main purpose of sous-vide for stews? It's still not really clear at least to me... Thanks!

Edited October 4, 2013 by FrogPrincesse (log)

[rotuts]

one separates the meat from the sauce. the time for SV is not an issue as its unattended and the result can be kept perfectly for later. the issues with SV I think evaporate once one realizes it can produce perfect 'meat'

"lack of nuance" etc is for a total product, not for the sum of various parts. this will be continued.

the rest is in making the sauce with a PC or another means and then combining them at the end.

[ChrisZ]

Thanks for the replies what about doing a higher temp? I see Keller does ox cheeks at 82 would a temp of 70+ help? What is the perfect braising temp sous vide?

You get different textures and results with different combinations of time and temp. I tried a side-by-side comparison a few weeks ago, making beef bourguignon with beef cheeks.

I made up the overall batch together using a conventional recipe, then split it between two bags. I cooked one for about 10 hours at 80C, and the other for 3 days at 60C.

The 10 hours / 80C cheeks were falling apart, with delicious gelatinous globs throughout. The meat had a stringy texture. You could have eaten it with a spoon, you didn't need a knife because there weren't any large solid chunks of meat to cut through.

The 3 days / 60C cheeks were completely different. Although they were also meltingly tender, the meat had held together and had the texture of a tender steak. If you wanted to you could have eaten it with a knife and fork.

In both cases the flavour was the same, and the sauce could have done with further reduction to make it even richer.

I was very surprised at the difference in the texture between the two batches and my next step is to try a 4-way comparision that also includes a pressure cooker, and a conventional stove/oven braise.

[rotuts]

my next step is to try a 4-way comparision that also includes a pressure cooker, and a conventional stove/oven braise.

look forward to your results

[FeChef]

Not sure why some of you are having trouble with chuck roast. My chuck's sous vide @ 133F for 24 hours come out like prime rib. My chuck's sous vide @ 160F for 24 hours makes the best open face pot roast or shredded beef for taco's. Probably one of the best cuts for sous vide in my opinion.

[PedroG]

Cooking tough meats sous vide:

Here are a few useful links:
Douglas Baldwin's Practical Guide to Sous Vide Cooking, Tough Meat
The wikiGullet Sous Vide page, Cooking Tough Proteins
The topic "Pot Roast Recipe?"
The topic "Technological Cooking"

In a nutshell:

For medium-rare and fork-tender like tenderloin: 55-57°C/48h (thick tendons may escape enzymatic hydrolyzation)

For well-done and falling apart like a traditional braise: 58°C/6-12h and then 78°C/2-4h; or 58°C/6-12h, then sear and continue with traditional braising.

(At 58°C the thin collagen sheaths surrounding the muscle fibers will be gelatinized, so they can't shrink and squeeze juices out of the muscle fibers when temperature is subsequently raised above 60°C to thermally hydrolyze thicker collagen parts like tendons and fasciae.)

[rotuts]

"" For well-done and falling apart like a traditional braise: 58°C/6-12h and then 78°C/2-4h; or 58°C/6-12h, then sear and continue with traditional braising.

(At 58°C the thin collagen sheaths surrounding the muscle fibers will be gelatinized, so they can't shrink and squeeze juices out of the muscle fibers when temperature is subsequently raised above 60°C to thermally hydrolyze thicker collagen parts like tendons and fasciae.)

"""

I didn't know this. will give it a try Many thanks PG!

[FeChef]

So let me get this straight...PG is saying that to get fall-apart texture, you cook for 6-12 hours at 58C (136F) then 78C (172F) for 2-4 hours and it should fall apart? Im not disagreeing because frankly i havent tried 172F SV for meats. But I can tell you theres no way 58C (136F) for 6-12 or even 24-48 hours is going to be fall-apart.

[rotuts]

PG's insight, at lest to me, is that you do the 58 // 6 - 12 first, for the above reasons, then the higher temp. So that at the higher temp for the 'fall-apart' much of the 'jus' stays in the meat rather than is extruded by muscle contraction, which is no longer possible due to the first step.

that's my take. I have not tried it yet. but in my experience, PG is rarely, if ever, wrong on the Science of SV.