Bartenders Too Snobby? Says Who...

[weinoo]

Well, the NY Post seems to think so...

Berry and her friend came up against the fastest-rising beast in hospitality: the snooty mixologist. Right up there with the overbearing maitre d’, the pushy waiter and the bossy chef, these bar brats act like they know what’s best for their customers.

My feeling (as if anyone asked)? There are enough bars to go around, and some of us like bars where people aren't screaming at each other and drinking crap, so...

Right on, Phil.

[slkinsey]

I think there is a right way and a wrong way to do this sort of thing. Pegu Club was probably the first large-scale famous cocktail bar that made a deliberate decision not to feature vodka drinks on its menus, to stock only two brands of vodka, and to stock no flavored vodkas at all. And yet, a big part of the philosophy there was to be polite and gracious and give the customer what he wanted. I remember Audrey telling me that they weren't about making vodka tonics, but if someone ordered a vodka tonic they would make him the best vodka tonic they could -- and they wouldn't make the guy feel like a loser for ordering one. Sure, there were times people came in asking about flavored vodkas and were sold on a "special citrus and juniper infused vodka" cocktail. But always with the proviso that, "if you don't like it, I'll be happy to make you something else."

So it seems to me that there are ways to do these things: Rather than telling a customer that that Long Island Iced Tea he just ordered is a crap drink for rubes, the bartender can say that the bar doesn't make that drink but "if you like Long Island Iced Teas I bet you would love a classic Zombie. If you don't like it, I'll be happy to make you something else." Certainly there are bartenders out there who can be snooty. But we can't ignore the fact that there are plenty of customers out there who feel inappropriately entitled, and take offense when every bar isn't exactly what they want it to be. Believe it or not, there are customers who get angry or feel slighted if a bar doesn't stock amaretto or Coca-Cola. To make one example, I remember Phil Ward telling me a story from the early days of Mayahuel when a customer asked for a double vodka soda. She was told politely that the bar doesn't stock vodka and doesn't sell doubles, but that they would be happy to help her choose a drink from the bar's many offerings. This apparently wasn't good enough, and she went off on an angry tirade about what kind of pretentious snobby bar doesn't sell double vodka sodas. All of this is to say that condescension from bartenders certainly does exist, but it is erroneously inferred by customers on a fairly frequent basis as well.

[mkayahara]

What's the reason for not stocking any vodka, though? That just bugs me, and I don't even drink vodka! Or does Mayahuel stock only agave-based distillates? I think Pegu Club's approach is perfect; even just stocking one rail vodka, and no flavoured vodkas, would be fine. The philosophy of, "if someone ordered a vodka tonic they would make him the best vodka tonic they could -- and they wouldn't make the guy feel like a loser for ordering one" is, to me, the heart of hospitality. I get that you don't want your bar overrun by crowds that are there for the atmosphere alone and drinking nothing but vodka drinks, but still...

[slkinsey]

What's the reason for not stocking any vodka, though?

I suppose it's similar to the reasons a vegetarian restaurant wouldn't stock beef, right?

[mkayahara]

What's the reason for not stocking any vodka, though?

I suppose it's similar to the reasons a vegetarian restaurant wouldn't stock beef, right?

I suppose you could make that case.

[Mjx]

Mixologist?! GRRRRRRRRR. That's bad news, right there, and when the bartender describes or herself a 'mixologist' ('Hiiii, I'm Ocean, and I'll be your mixologist!'), I get the hell out of there (unless I'm with a group that makes it an impossibility). I think those have been my only really unpleasant bartender-related experiences in bars.

Seriously, WHY 'mixologist'?! It sounds ridiculous. It doesn't suggest ANYthing specific about drink (any substances can be mixed, which I discovered when I was about two, and brought joy to my parents by carefully dipping water out of the toilet and mixing in all the odds and ends a toddler is so well-equipped to find laying about), merely the desire to come up with a new word at all costs, and that's more about ego than the desire to mix and serve drinks. It just sounds like a setup for a wretched experience.

eh. I think I need a holiday.

[slkinsey]

The word "mixologist" actually dates to around 1856, although it was used tongue-in-cheek at that time. Later, I think it was recontextualized in an attempt to differentiate cocktailian bartenders from those who pour shots and beers and serve up the occasional vodka tonic. Personally, I think the term has some usefulness in differentiating the skill of creating cocktails (done by a mixologist) from the skill of producing and serving cocktails (done by a bartender), much in the way we have terms that differentiate composers and authors from performers. Using this terminology, we can note that many accomplished mixologists are or have been bartenders, but this is not true of all of them and many creators of great cocktails have not been bartenders. Similarly, there are plenty of accomplished cocktailian bartenders who aren't going to leave behind a legacy of their mixological skills in the form of enduring cocktail recipes.

[Adam George]

A bit of a blow for the bartending community.

Trust me, I have seriously "snooty" tastes myself. I'd love if all my punters were drinking brown stirred drinks and Daiquiris, but the reality is that's not what everyone wants.

I had a group of girls and gay chaps come for dinner at our high end restaurant at the hotel. One ordered an Amaretto Sour and the rest followed suit. I didn't tell them this wasn't an ideal aperitif and would they like a Negroni; instead I made them the best damn amaretto sour they ever had (Morganthaler) and chatted to them whilst the rest of the party arrived. I didn't boast about slipping them high proof rye whiskey, though would have explained if they asked.

They ordered another round after dinner.

At times, despite my own tastes I have to remember to back when I started in this industry and all I had was my charm and desire to please people. I had literally zero knowledge at all and my guests returned and tipped well because they had felt looked after.

[Mjx]

The word "mixologist" actually dates to around 1856, although it was used tongue-in-cheek at that time. Later, I think it was recontextualized in an attempt to differentiate cocktailian bartenders from those who pour shots and beers and serve up the occasional vodka tonic. Personally, I think the term has some usefulness in differentiating the skill of creating cocktails (done by a mixologist) from the skill of producing and serving cocktails (done by a bartender), much in the way we have terms that differentiate composers and authors from performers. Using this terminology, we can note that many accomplished mixologists are or have been bartenders, but this is not true of all of them and many creators of great cocktails have not been bartenders. Similarly, there are plenty of accomplished cocktailian bartenders who aren't going to leave behind a legacy of their mixological skills in the form of enduring cocktail recipes.

At least as great a percentage of self-described mixologists will leave no more legacy than most bartenders; if there was the slightest indication of a correlation between creativity and job title, I could see the point, but let's face it, in any field the percentage of genuinely creative people is tiny, while those who at least sweat the details and do their best to produce something of high quality is only slightly larger. Still not sold.

[weinoo]

So a chef can tell me that I can't take pictures, can't take notes, can't substitute, have to pay up front, etc. etc. and these same people whining about a snobby bartender are lining up for his or her (well, mostly his) food?

Fuck that.

[slkinsey]

Trust me, I have seriously "snooty" tastes myself. I'd love if all my punters were drinking brown stirred drinks and Daiquiris, but the reality is that's not what everyone wants.

I had a group of girls and gay chaps come for dinner at our high end restaurant at the hotel. One ordered an Amaretto Sour and the rest followed suit. I didn't tell them this wasn't an ideal aperitif and would they like a Negroni; instead I made them the best damn amaretto sour they ever had (Morganthaler) and chatted to them whilst the rest of the party arrived. I didn't boast about slipping them high proof rye whiskey, though would have explained if they asked.

Right. But I think it's worthy of note that different "rules" may apply to different kinds of bars in different settings. A hotel bar has a mandate to be all things to all people. Just like a hotel restaurant has to serve meat dishes, a hotel bar has to serve Amaretto Sours. But there are gradations. A 40 seat specialty cocktail bar doesn't have a mandate to stock vodka or serve frozen Daiquiris any more than a 40 seat specialty fish restaurant has a mandate to serve hamburgers. Notwithstanding the foregoing, there isn't ever any reason for bar staff to be rude to customers -- or for customers to be rude to bar staff.

So a chef can tell me that I can't take pictures, can't take notes, can't substitute, have to pay up front, etc. etc. and these same people whining about a snobby bartender are lining up for his or her (well, mostly his) food?

Fuck that.

To be fair, plenty of customers and writers complain loudly about this sort of thing in restaurants as well.

Edited March 14, 2013 by slkinsey (log)

[Kim Shook]

What's wrong with vodka?

[brinza]

Customer service should definitely come first, and what happened to talking to patrons and hopefully educating or enlightening them on new possibilities that they may not have considered? So give them the vodka martini or whatever and while they are drinking it, talk to them about other exciting options for Round Two. OTOH, after reading a statement like

Ask for vodka, theyll give you gin. Request a mainstream, top-shelf liquor, and theyll look down on you and push an artisanal alternative of which youve never heard.

I have to say that in 99.9% of the bars in the US, order a "Martini" without any other qualifiers and you'll get vodka. And I'm sure if you said, "Oh, I wanted gin" you'd get a response along the lines of "Most people want vodka in their Martinis," completely oblivious to the irony of that statement.

Embury in Pittsburgh didn't stock vodka, but the bartenders always explained it politely, almost apologetically. Besides, it was the owner's decision, not theirs. The logic for not carrying vodka was that they billed themselves as a "pre-prohibition style cocktail bar." Occasionally someone would walk in off the street not realizing what they had walked into and order a beer, which Embury also didn't have. (Caveat: there was a more convential lounge just upstairs where the rum and cokes, etc. flowed freely, but Embury was on the ground floor and more visible). One guy sat next to me and when it was explained to him that it was a cocktail bar, ordered a Whiskey Sour, obviously unable to think of anything else. I think he felt a bit out of his element, so I said "Good choice." The bartender without hesitation started performing his craft with the same skill and care that he put into all his drinks, including a one-handed egg crack to drop a bit of egg white into the shaker (sometimes I'm easily impressed). I said to the guy, "This will be the best Whiskey Sour you've ever had. He seemed to enjoy it and no one looked down on him.

I just don't get the snobbery. Cocktails went out of fashion partly because bartenders lost the art of making good drinks and subsequently bar patrons forgot how good a well-made cocktail could be. Like Sam said, impress your patrons by how damn well you make the drink, not by making them feel stupid for ordering the wrong drink. Use a quality, fresh vermouth in the vodka Martini or homemade tonic water in their vodka and tonic (and don't drown the spirit with 6 ounces of tonic water either) and see if they notice the difference. Now if they complain that the Martini is not "dry" enough and want less or no vermouth, then them's fightin' words.

Edited March 14, 2013 by brinza (log)

[slkinsey]

What's wrong with vodka?

Mostly? That it doesn't taste like anything, and so the majority of people ordering vodka want the ethanol without any flavor. From a cocktail standpoint, vodka can very occasionally be useful when mindfully used as a dilutent to expose nuances in extremely concentrated flavors (e.g., the Dreamy Dorini Smoking Martini). But for the most part, it's simply the case of taking a bunch of already-existing flavors and making them alcoholic. Take a Vodka and Tonic, for example. What does it taste like? Tonic water. Maybe tonic water with a little bit of bite, but effectively it's just a glass of tonic water that can get you drunk. A Gin and Tonic, on the other hand, has a flavor that is completely different from just as plain glass of tonic. So this is the reason that most cocktailophiles disdain vodka as a cocktail ingredient. This is also undoubtedly partly due to backlash against the preponderance of crappy vodka drinks in play during the years when the cocktail revival was first getting going, so that among a certain generation of the cocktail community hating on vodka became a kind of shibboleth.

[weinoo]

C'mon. As Sam and I both can attest, Phil was nothing if not a gentleman about offering other spirits, with the caveat that if you don't like it, I'll make you something else.

I'm obviously trying to call the author out, because I think he's full of it.

[FrogPrincesse]

I just cannot take this article seriously. I don't read the New York Post but given the other types of headlines on the same page (Here is first one below the article: "Gwyneth Paltrow on her Oscar fashion disaster: 'I should have worn a bra' "), I could care less about what the author has to say. It's just too bad that people like Phil Ward got dragged into this.

[weinoo]

I just cannot take this article seriously. I don't read the New York Post but given the other types of headlines on the same page (Here is first one below the article: "Gwyneth Paltrow on her Oscar fashion disaster: 'I should have worn a bra' "), I could care less about what the author has to say. It's just too bad that people like Phil Ward got dragged into this.

Hey, don't diss the NY Post. It's got a good sports section.

[FrogPrincesse]

I just cannot take this article seriously. I don't read the New York Post but given the other types of headlines on the same page (Here is first one below the article: "Gwyneth Paltrow on her Oscar fashion disaster: 'I should have worn a bra' "), I could care less about what the author has to say. It's just too bad that people like Phil Ward got dragged into this.

Hey, don't diss the NY Post. It's got a good sports section.

OK, sorry... not too much into sports and even less reading about them!

[KatieLoeb]

Same argument. Different day. Make them whatever the hell they ask for if you're able to, and with a smile on your face. I don't have to like it OR drink it. They do. And even if I think they're a Philistine, they just took up a mere nanosecond of my time for a no-brainer drink I can make in my sleep, freeing me up to talk to the customers that truly want my attention, creativity and suggestions. Where's the problem?

If indeed your bar doesn't stock whatever they're asking for, a simple and polite "I'm sorry we don't have that. May I suggest ______, instead" will suffice. Making the guest feel like an ass only makes you look like a jerk. They came out to give you and your establishment money, not to be preached to by a pious bartender. Why cut off your nose to spite your face? If they want you to evangelize them, you'll know it...

[Hassouni]

Same argument. Different day. Make them whatever the hell they ask for if you're able to, and with a smile on your face. I don't have to like it OR drink it. They do. And even if I think they're a Philistine, they just took up a mere nanosecond of my time for a no-brainer drink I can make in my sleep, freeing me up to talk to the customers that truly want my attention, creativity and suggestions. Where's the problem?

If indeed your bar doesn't stock whatever they're asking for, a simple and polite "I'm sorry we don't have that. May I suggest ______, instead" will suffice. Making the guest feel like an ass only makes you look like a jerk. They came out to give you and your establishment money, not to be preached to by a pious bartender. Why cut off your nose to spite your face? If they want you to evangelize them, you'll know it...

Agree 100%

[annabelle]

Same argument. Different day. Make them whatever the hell they ask for if you're able to, and with a smile on your face. I don't have to like it OR drink it. They do. And even if I think they're a Philistine, they just took up a mere nanosecond of my time for a no-brainer drink I can make in my sleep, freeing me up to talk to the customers that truly want my attention, creativity and suggestions. Where's the problem?

If indeed your bar doesn't stock whatever they're asking for, a simple and polite "I'm sorry we don't have that. May I suggest ______, instead" will suffice. Making the guest feel like an ass only makes you look like a jerk. They came out to give you and your establishment money, not to be preached to by a pious bartender. Why cut off your nose to spite your face? If they want you to evangelize them, you'll know it...

Definitely agree, Katie.

[bostonapothecary]

what is funny about this topic is that i've wanted to start advocating micro-cap bar programs that operate with lots of constraints. not just one vodka or no vodka but one gin, one vodka, one bourbon, one rum, etc. this is how we run it at work and we have been wildly successful. we are in the supposed pickiest, snobbiest, non-foody first suburb of the city. and yet it has been so easy. patrons love it. we are so busy and i've never had more regulars in my career. somehow the staff makes the eccentricity come across as supremely endearing. granted the staff is not normal (they are extraordinarily charismatic) and there are only five of us. prep, ordering, and inventory are so easy.

i think part of the success is discriminating evenly. just one of each. the distilleries aren't even my favorites. we didn't select you the "best" vodka but one that works. one you can afford. same with the gin. i enjoy it now, but hopefully the gin will get better with every batch they make. the vodka and gin are local and somehow we've become their biggest non liquor store accounts despite being only a 40 seat restaurant (and a tiny sister place down the street with a similar program).

we only use lemon juice, no lime. the cranberry juice is fresh pressed and unpasteurized, there are no sodas, only soda water, tonic, and orangina. we make a lot of lemonades which for some reason people rave about because the ratios are spot on and they are not over engineered. we don't have decaf ("but its early!")

there is this cool aura about the program that it was inherited (and it was) and we just make do. some restricted bar programs have a contrived quality. it has been fun to work with less than ideal selections. it is almost a test of your service and charm. our one bourbon is granddad. i keep finding patrons enjoying teasing their companions about turning their nose up at a granddad old fashioned so there is a small element of challenge to it. i'm not trying to punish anyone, but it was there when i started four years ago and seemed like a worthwhile tradition to maintain.

our old fashioned is batched and people keep asking for the recipe to make at home (18 oz. GD 4.5 oz. SS 1 oz. Ango). we only have cranberry infused tequila for a hyphenated-margarita (our most popular drink with lemon juice!). no plain tequila ("because the line cooks will drink it all" which has been the truth in the past) so you cannot have a classic margarita. our selections definitely challenge some peoples notions of quality. i'd argue that even deep into the cocktail renaissance, connoisseurship on both sides of bar is weak and notions of quality are horribly flawed. our drinks are delicious and really well received. the cocktail list has become so entrenched with the regulars it can no longer be changed.

we are a popular first date spot and one thing i've observed is that people like to test their dates. can they handle our eccentricities gracefully and figure out how to enjoy themselves or do they turn into an ass when there is no makers mark or diet coke or there is a wait or there is no chicken entree. easy going adaptable people without hangups get second dates. challenging people isn't the priority but it happens. the subtlest of challenges are part of the fun, a source of humor and conversation, and can make an evening unforgettable.

our program is weird and fun and everything works. i don't know how the NYPost would feel about it.

guest: "may i have a grey goose martini"

me: "local vodka martini, olives or a twist?"

guest: [smiles] "olives"

somehow with the right timing, with the right smile, with the perfect inflection its just easy.

Edited March 15, 2013 by bostonapothecary (log)

[Adam George]

Right. But I think it's worthy of note that different "rules" may apply to different kinds of bars in different settings. A hotel bar has a mandate to be all things to all people. Just like a hotel restaurant has to serve meat dishes, a hotel bar has to serve Amaretto Sours. But there are gradations. A 40 seat specialty cocktail bar doesn't have a mandate to stock vodka or serve frozen Daiquiris any more than a 40 seat specialty fish restaurant has a mandate to serve hamburgers. Notwithstanding the foregoing, there isn't ever any reason for bar staff to be rude to customers -- or for customers to be rude to bar staff.

Yes, we try to be all things to all people, but even then, we do it our way.

We stock some ten beers and they are all London based. They cover everything from light, dry lagers (not light lager like Bud or Miller) through ales, wheat and then a massive Stout. You can't get your Heineken or Peroni, though the staff here ask what sort of beer a guest enjoys usually and gives them the nearest option, usually explaining how local we are to them. We've even visited three of the breweries, trying beer as fresh as you can get. There's not an ounce of condescension when the bar staff explain that our beers are really better than any commercially available option because we've seen every step of the process. We don't champion them for bartender-kudos. Sometimes this puts people out of their comfort zone, but overall the feedback on the selection has been fantastic and our regulars have got really involved.

We also don't stock some of the obvious spirits. No Grey Goose here. Instead we stock two British, one of which London based vodkas and have again visited the distillery. We support these brands because they're truly great products that are unique.

I'm not saying I disagree with you. Far from it. But there is a way you can promote your own drinks ethos without a bad attitude.
Boston apothecary gives much better examples than my post-shift ramblings.

Funnily our restaurant is actually a specialist fish restaurant, recently Michelin inspected and funnily enough, they do actually serve fillet and also sliders for the bar! When you've got a battery of water baths going anyway, it make sense to have a few fillets in ready to go.
People love beer and steak, but we try to give them great beer and steak, I suppose.

[Brown Hornet]

I guess I lean towards the school of giving the people what they pay for, even though my cocktail tastes are fairly snobby. The bartenders I know, especially those who are serious about their profession, will bend over backwards to accomodate their patrons. The typical approach would be to make whatever is ordered followed with a friendly suggestion along the lines of "hey if you like X, I think you'd also really like Y."

That said, the disgruntled customers in that article sound like complete imbeciles. Why would you even go to a bar described in the article as "Apothéke, a faux-secret bar in Chinatown with a 19th-century-pharmacy theme" and order a tanquery and soda water? It's like going to the French Laundry and complaining that you can't order a 16 oz. NY strip.

[annabelle]

Is it against the rules to direct these unhappy patrons to a lounge that is more their style? It mentions a couple of different bars in the article that are more old school and probably even have draft beer.