Sous Vide: Recipes, Techniques & Equipment, 2011

[jrshaul]

Despite my fairly minimal college-student budget, I've managed to acquire a crock pot ($5), PID controller ($17), SSR ($6.50), and vacuum bag sealer ($2!) However, I've had a bit of trouble finding a food-safe temperature probe at a reasonable price. Can anyone make a recommendation?

[dougal]

... However, I've had a bit of trouble finding a food-safe temperature probe at a reasonable price. Can anyone make a recommendation?

The probe shouldn't need to be food safe - being outside the bag.

But, it either needs to be immersible or you need to keep the appropriate bits completely dry in some way.

I have an Auber probe http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=15&products_id=46

HowardLi used a non-immersible type, floated on cork - but I'm not sure about either long-term durability or how he keeps condensation out ...

[HowardLi]

Steady state consumption in the bath tub at 55°C was about 1060W, with Frank's 120L SS pot steady state consumption at 85°C (!) was only about 125W according to heating slope and cooling slope data Frank reported. Insulation and prevention of evaporation are the key. Who will report the data with a 100-quart cooler?

If you do that once-in-a-life-time bathtub long duration sous vide, how about pouring vegetable oil on the water to prevent evaporation?

You can recover all the oil later.

dcarch

I'm thinking it'll still bubble through. How about covering the surface with plastic film (not wrap)?

[PedroG]

Steady state consumption in the bath tub at 55°C was about 1060W, with Frank's 120L SS pot steady state consumption at 85°C (!) was only about 125W according to heating slope and cooling slope data Frank reported. Insulation and prevention of evaporation are the key. Who will report the data with a 100-quart cooler?

If you do that once-in-a-life-time bathtub long duration sous vide, how about pouring vegetable oil on the water to prevent evaporation?

You can recover all the oil later.

dcarch

I'm thinking it'll still bubble through. How about covering the surface with plastic film (not wrap)?

Bubble wrap would float and insulate to some degree and avoid evaporation.

[nickrey]

I've just read one of Martin Lersh's excellent pieces at his site blog.khymos.org on a sous vide masterclass conducted by Bruno Goussault.

One of the things that Goussault said was that when using cook-chill, you should use a step chilling process rather than plunging the hot cooked food into an ice bath (as is the recommended practice here). He proposed that this allows "readsorption of a portion of the exudated juices." Quoting from the blog: "A suggested stepwise cooling protocol for fish could be as follows: 10 min at room temperature, 10 min in cold water followed by 2 h in ice water."

Any comments on the merit of this? Is some of the liquid readsorbed as Goussault proposes? If so, does the process have an impact on food hygiene? In other words, does it work and is it safe?

[DouglasBaldwin]

The step cooling method isn't unsafe and certainly makes sense in an industrial setting, where you're cooling a huge amount of food and the multistage step will save you quite a bit of electricity.

Does it make a noticeable difference? I don't think it does. The experiments I did several years ago found a small but statistically insignificant difference in the amount of liquid lost during cooking. I'd of course be interested in hearing the results of any experiments that you might do.

[dougal]

... a sous vide masterclass conducted by Bruno Goussault.

One of the things that Goussault said was that when using cook-chill, you should use a step chilling process rather than plunging the hot cooked food into an ice bath (as is the recommended practice here). He proposed that this allows "readsorption of a portion of the exudated juices." Quoting from the blog: "A suggested stepwise cooling protocol for fish could be as follows: 10 min at room temperature, 10 min in cold water followed by 2 h in ice water."

Any comments on the merit of this? Is some of the liquid readsorbed as Goussault proposes? If so, does the process have an impact on food hygiene? In other words, does it work and is it safe?

The step cooling method isn't unsafe and certainly makes sense in an industrial setting, where you're cooling a huge amount of food and the multistage step will save you quite a bit of electricity.

Does it make a noticeable difference? I don't think it does. The experiments I did several years ago found a small but statistically insignificant difference in the amount of liquid lost during cooking. I'd of course be interested in hearing the results of any experiments that you might do.

This was discussed in July/August 2008.

NathanM replied that there was "NO point to multi-stage cooling" (his emphasis). "If you are going to store the SV product after cooking, then you should cool it to storage temp (very cold - ideally just above freezing) as soon as possible. The best way to do this is to either immerse in ice water, or use a blast freezer ..."

JohnV suggested that it might be a means of allowing central-core cooking (like overshoot during "resting") when doing non-equilibrium (overheat-bath) sv cooking - like Keller's salmon for 13 minutes at 61C. A fix for a self-created problem. Which seems to me like a fair rationalisation of an apparently irrational action!

Douglas's post was http://egullet.org/p1591766

Douglas is now indicating that the principal benefit would be cost saving from reduced ice consumption.

But Goussault is still claiming a product quality improvement, for which, AFAIK, no mechanism has ever been proposed to explain why such a result might occur.

If there actually is any measurable result, it does not seem to be very significant.

Is it supposed to happen in meat as well as fish?

Although Douglas declares this slow cooling "isn't unsafe", the fact must remain that the slower the cooling before storage, the shorter the safe storage life becomes.

But how much shorter, I can only guess.

Quenching the hot food with the coldest medium to hand will get it down to 'safe' temperatures fastest - and that would be 'best' for food safety, and storage life.

It shouldn't matter too much if you are going to serve the food within a very few hours. But it matters much more if you are batch cooking, with a view to storage until demanded.

IIRC, the rate of heat flow increases greatly with increasing temperature difference - isn't it roughly proportional not to the square or cube of the temperature difference, but to its 4th power?

Double the temperature difference to the cooling bath, and heat would be sucked out 16 times faster ... half the temperature difference and the heat comes out 16x more slowly!

Sitting in room temperature air (not even room temperature water) for ten minutes sounds to me much more like temperature equalising than cooling.

Since Goussault's 'canard' has reappeared, could I ask Douglas and/or Nathan to run their computer models again to look at the specifics of Goussault's suggested cooling cycle, versus a 'large' iced water bath, for cooling a half inch thick piece of fish (say Pacific Salmon, where C. bot is a concern) down from a uniform 50C (or their choice) down to an average of 4C (domestic refrigerator expectation).

How much longer does it take to chill?

What change does this make to spoilage and toxic microbiology?

And just how much impact would that have on refrigerator, bag-still-sealed storage life?

[e_monster]

Although Douglas declares this slow cooling "isn't unsafe", the fact must remain that the slower the cooling before storage, the shorter the safe storage life becomes.

But how much shorter, I can only guess.

It isn't clear that this would actually significantly slow down the total cooling time dramatically enough to affect safety. In fact, if -- like me -- your ice water bath is not huge -- you may actually get faster cooling by having the bag fresh out of the bath going into a sink full of cold water for 10 minutes or so before putting it into the ice bath. In two stage cooling like this, the difference in time may be marginal or possibly faster since the ice isn't subject to the hot bag. Since the bag will already have been cooled somewhat, the ice bath stays cooler. This is only an issue for people using smallish ice baths and who have a limited ice supply. In any case, a 10 minute sit in cold water can't possibly extended the cooling time by any more than 10 minutes and it is probably extending the cooling time by much less since the meat will be cooling in the cold (or even room temperature water). So, I don't think that there is any reason to suggest that this would be significantly less safe than going directly into the ice bath.

Best,

Edward

[Robert Jueneman]

Post -searing techniques

I recently bought a Le Creuset grill pan and Panini press that has significantly improved my post-searing method for steaks, etc.

I used to use a flat cast-iron pan, heated to the point of smoking, then toss in the blotted-dry steak and sear the top with a MAPP torch while the bottom was searing in the pan, then flip it over to get some additional juice on both sides. This technique worked reasonably well, although the torch tends to cause little black bumps, rather than a nice sear. But even if I SV'ed the steak at 120F/50C, this technique seemed to cook the entire steak too much, unless I went with a very thick steak (over 50mm).

But with the Le Creuset combination, I can put both the grill pan and the cast iron press on the gas stove (on two different burners), so both get nice and hot, then sear both the top and bottom simultaneously. Then flip the steak and rotate it 90 degrees, then reapply the press for a perfect criss-cross grill mark pattern.

(I should note that the instructions state than this cannot be used on a smooth glass-top cooking range, as the ridges of the press won't get hot enough. And I don't know about an induction range.)

Spritzing the meat with a high smoke point oil (not olive oil) is an option, as is applying a brush of 5% glucose solution to enhance the Maillard reaction. I would avoid spraying the Panini press, so that it doesn't flame if you decide to reheat it, e.g, if you are cooking more than one steak.

With this technique, not only did the steak look absolutely gorgeous, but the searing was a nice 1mm thick, and the interior of the steak even a bit too much on the rare side, at least for my wife's taste. I may do the next one at 122F/51C.

And of course the combination can also be used for making Panini sandwiches.

Bob

[dougal]

... Quoting from {Goussault's} blog: "A suggested stepwise cooling protocol for fish could be as follows: 10 min at room temperature, 10 min in cold water followed by 2 h in ice water." ...

...

It isn't clear that this would actually significantly slow down the total cooling time dramatically enough to affect safety. In fact, if -- like me -- your ice water bath is not huge -- you may actually get faster cooling by having the bag fresh out of the bath going into a sink full of cold water for 10 minutes or so before putting it into the ice bath. ...

Edward, I fully agree that if one's ice supply is inadequate, a few minutes initially under a running cold tap will help you get more cooling mileage out of however much ice you can follow it with. As would putting your whole icebath into the fridge.

However, what we have here is an sv celebrity positively advising 10 minutes counter time before even going for the tapwater -- for what seems like an illusory benefit.

The increased time in the 'danger zone' (just below pasteurising temperature) has to be paid for in reduced shelf-life.

I don't know (and am asking) how much reduction this might be.

My suspicion (or maybe ill-informed guess) is that 10 minutes at +40C might take days (more than 24 hours) off the +4C fridge-storage-life.

Can anyone put some justifiable numbers on this please?

Edited June 12, 2011 by dougal (log)

[e_monster]

...

However, what we have here is an sv celebrity positively advising 10 minutes counter time before even going for the tapwater -- for what seems like an illusory benefit.

......

You could be right -- but since neither of us has done an A/B test to see if there is ACTUALLY no benefit. We don't know that it is an illusory benefit. Nathan has argued quite persuasively that there shouldn't be a benefit, but I wouldn't be adamant about how silly this guy's argument in until actually verifying that there is no benefit.

Nathan's argument seems valid but I should also say that my neighbor (who gets to eat a lot of the sous-vide cooking that I do) has mentioned several times that on occasions when I took meat out of the cooker (such as tri-tip cooked at 133 to 135F) and it ended up waiting on the counter in its bag for a a while maybe 10 minutes before I got to removing it and torching it (usually because poor planning caused me to have to attend to something else for a few minutes) that he felt that the texture was better than the meat that went immediately from bath to torching.

Now, I am skeptical that the 10 minute rest did anything -- but this has happened more than once -- and on at least one of these occasions there was some meat that didn't rest. So, it probably merits a few people coming up with an agreed upon protocol and performing it and seeing if it confirms what theory predicts. It probably will confirm no benefit to the food BUT I think it makes sense to do it before being too incensed.

Anyway, that's my thought.

[Kerry Beal]

Making a silk purse out of a sows ear - eye of round sous vide.

Salted for 24 hours, sous vide for 36 hours or so at 58 C.

Oh yeah - and I let it rest at room temperature for 10 minutes before I cooled it - but no control!

Edited June 13, 2011 by Kerry Beal (log)

[rotuts]

How do you feel eye of the round compares in flavor to chuck-eye?

was 36 hr enough time for 'tendernes?'

thanks

and many thanks for including those pictures!

Edited June 13, 2011 by rotuts (log)

[Kerry Beal]

How do you feel eye of the round compares in flavor to chuck-eye?

was 36 hr enough time for 'tendernes?'

thanks

I could cut it with a fork - it's that tender. And I'm loving the flavour. Don't know how it compares to the chuck eye though - would have to do a side by side.

[HowardLi]

...

However, what we have here is an sv celebrity positively advising 10 minutes counter time before even going for the tapwater -- for what seems like an illusory benefit.

......

You could be right -- but since neither of us has done an A/B test to see if there is ACTUALLY no benefit. We don't know that it is an illusory benefit. Nathan has argued quite persuasively that there shouldn't be a benefit, but I wouldn't be adamant about how silly this guy's argument in until actually verifying that there is no benefit.

Nathan's argument seems valid but I should also say that my neighbor (who gets to eat a lot of the sous-vide cooking that I do) has mentioned several times that on occasions when I took meat out of the cooker (such as tri-tip cooked at 133 to 135F) and it ended up waiting on the counter in its bag for a a while maybe 10 minutes before I got to removing it and torching it (usually because poor planning caused me to have to attend to something else for a few minutes) that he felt that the texture was better than the meat that went immediately from bath to torching.

Now, I am skeptical that the 10 minute rest did anything -- but this has happened more than once -- and on at least one of these occasions there was some meat that didn't rest. So, it probably merits a few people coming up with an agreed upon protocol and performing it and seeing if it confirms what theory predicts. It probably will confirm no benefit to the food BUT I think it makes sense to do it before being too incensed.

Anyway, that's my thought.

Was your neighbor able to observe the process? That might've affected your findings.

[FoodMan]

in terms of ready to go Ive been very happy with the Sous Vide Magic set up.

http://freshmealssolutions.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage-ask.tpl&product_id=39&category_id=15&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=31

you need to get a coleman cooler thats 32 qt for the heating element to fit in the bottom

then can make smaller set-ups using the controller.

Frank, the owner has superb support.

I'm with you on that. I picked mine up from Frank on Wednesday. It heats the water up very quickly and holds temperature beautifully.

Here's a picture -

I'm going to have fun with this one. I'm finally pulling the big things out of the freezer - the eye of round, the whole brisket - all those things that certainly didn't fit in my old set up with the slow cooker.

He was mentioning that his free shipping is world wide.

My Immersion Circulator is has not crapped out yet, but after some research, it looks like this setup is my best bet should I need a replacement. That's unless a good deal pops up on eBay for a nice IC of course. I am not interested in a Sous Vide Supreme at all seeing as I can get the more versatile FMM for less money. Fingers crossed my IC stays in good condition till at least Christmas.

[Kerry Beal]

in terms of ready to go Ive been very happy with the Sous Vide Magic set up.

http://freshmealssolutions.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage-ask.tpl&product_id=39&category_id=15&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=31

you need to get a coleman cooler thats 32 qt for the heating element to fit in the bottom

then can make smaller set-ups using the controller.

Frank, the owner has superb support.

I'm with you on that. I picked mine up from Frank on Wednesday. It heats the water up very quickly and holds temperature beautifully.

Here's a picture -

I'm going to have fun with this one. I'm finally pulling the big things out of the freezer - the eye of round, the whole brisket - all those things that certainly didn't fit in my old set up with the slow cooker.

He was mentioning that his free shipping is world wide.

My Immersion Circulator is has not crapped out yet, but after some research, it looks like this setup is my best bet should I need a replacement. That's unless a good deal pops up on eBay for a nice IC of course. I am not interested in a Sous Vide Supreme at all seeing as I can get the more versatile FMM for less money. Fingers crossed my IC stays in good condition till at least Christmas.

I'm kicking myself for not picking it up sooner.

Last night I found a lamb shoulder for half off at the grocery store. I filled the container with warm water out of the sink. It took about 10 minutes to come up to 63C. My slow cooker would take an hour or more even if I added boiling water.

[rotuts]

an added benefit to the Magic system is that once you get the PID controller you can built smaller set-ups using smaller coleman coolers:

I have a 16 QT and 9 QT cooler system and use

2 - 3 of these:

http://www.amazon.com/NORPRO-559-Immersion-Warming-Liquids/dp/B000I8VE68/ref=pd_cp_hi_0

they hang from a stiff foam board cut to fit the inner lip of the coolers.

the 9 qt is great for 2 doz SV eggs, and the 16 qt for smaller batches of SV.

[bmdaniel]

I really can't imagine a better set-up and value except for aesthetic concerns.

[rotuts]

SV Beef: your rankings and favorite cut?

i thought Id put this here rather than a new topic:

now that most of us know that SV beef is very tender independent of cut --- as long as the SV goes for the correct amount of time ---

what cut has the "best --- beefy" flavor in your opinion?

Ive tried various chuck cuts, separating the muscles into individual pieces and flank and skirt.

Ive been very happy with each, I SV to 130 and leave in the bath hopefully enough time for 'tenderness'

once an a while some of the chuck has come out meally as if it was too long in the bath or had not gone through rigor properly sort of livery.

i have not yet tried the more expensive cuts, cutting down on the SV time appropriately. I have a lot of beef to finish first.

SV beef also makes very good thinly cut Roast Beef sandwiches!

[PedroG]

I started a new topic Reference thermometers and thermometer calibration methods for sous vide for presentation and discussion of reference thermometers to be included in the wikiGullet market overview Reference thermometer. Please contribute your recommendation and experience!

Thermometer calibration

Pedro's point is a good one.

But I do wonder if we can achieve accuracy within ±0.25C unless we all have expensive ISO- or NIST- calibrated thermometers, which clearly most of us do not have.

Unless you can absolutely guarantee the accuracy of your set up, it is extremely inadvisable to play around at the lower limits of sous vide temperature for long cooking times. After our discussion on this forum, I believe this is why Merredith went to a much more accurate, and expensive, setup than her Sous Vide Supreme.

It is better to add a few degrees on to the temperature and to extend the cooking time to incorporate a margin of error than to risk the health of either you or your customers. If you want to work on the edge, make sure you are appropriately equipped to do so, including having all equipment in the process calibrated and functioning within a ±0.25C error rate.

I think that it is worth noting that because of the non-linearity that -- depending on the unit -- calibrating with boiling water may be significantly less useful than calibrating to an ovulation or fever thermometer. On my Auber units, I have been told that the response is pretty flat from about 80F to about 150F but that between 150F and boiling there is a loss of accuracy so that calibrating to boiling water could introduce a few degrees of error. It is my understanding that there is more drift from 150F to boiling than there is from 32F to 150F.

Best,

Edward

As it would be best to have a calibrated reference thermometer instead of trying to calibrate at 0°C/37°C/100°C, I started compiling a market overview of precision thermometers in wikiGullet. Please contribute your experiences and criticisms and ideas.

[dcarch]

an added benefit to the Magic system is that once you get the PID controller you can built smaller set-ups using smaller coleman coolers:

I have a 16 QT and 9 QT cooler system and use

2 - 3 of these:

http://www.amazon.com/NORPRO-559-Immersion-Warming-Liquids/dp/B000I8VE68/ref=pd_cp_hi_0

they hang from a stiff foam board cut to fit the inner lip of the coolers.

the 9 qt is great for 2 doz SV eggs, and the 16 qt for smaller batches of SV.

I believe those are very unreliable heaters. They burn out quickly and they are not very will insulated electrically.

I use a high wattage 220 vac water tank heater running it at 110 vac. It will last forever.

You can also consider running a 220vac heater thru a diode to reduce 1/2 the current. That too will make the heater last forever.

dcarch

[rotuts]

point taken, thanks. Ill keep and eye on this

Im careful that only the metal parts of the heaters go into the water and I only use these set ups for quicker SV: Eggs. fish. and reheating a complete dinner.

[torolover]

I have very mixed feelings about SV beef.

I have done the 48 hour short ribs at 140 degrees numerous times using the best quality bone in short ribs I can find. The meat is very very tender, however just by looking at the beef after slicing it, you can tell it is not "juicy." The texture of the meat looks dry, and when I eat it, it taste more like roast beef then a juicy steak.

I tried sous vide with no marinade and I found a lot of juice left in the bag. Isn't that all the moisture that has left the meat?

I know using marinades and deep frying the short ribs help, but isn't the meat itself dry?

Anyone have similar results or am I doing something wrong?

[paulpegg]

I have very mixed feelings about SV beef.

I have done the 48 hour short ribs at 140 degrees numerous times using the best quality bone in short ribs I can find. The meat is very very tender, however just by looking at the beef after slicing it, you can tell it is not "juicy." The texture of the meat looks dry, and when I eat it, it taste more like roast beef then a juicy steak.

I tried sous vide with no marinade and I found a lot of juice left in the bag. Isn't that all the moisture that has left the meat?

I know using marinades and deep frying the short ribs help, but isn't the meat itself dry?

Anyone have similar results or am I doing something wrong?

I think 60C (140F) is too hot. you are cooking the meat to medium. I use 55C (131F) with great success.