Sous vide – what to buy or ask for, for Christmas?

[PedroG]

SVP CREATIVE IC $499.95 controls up to 20L container

SVP CHEF IC $799.95 controls up to 30L container

SWID IC €449 controls up to 50L or baby pool (LOL)

Submersion circulator/bubbler $329.50 controls 130L whirl pool (really insane! LOLROF)

Whatever the heater, a tall container is recommended to allow vertical positioning of bags even with an entire tenderloin or the like.

[Martin Fisher]

I'm at a loss as to what to use for a bath.

As Pedro noted, the above coffee urn is rather small, the largest slow cookers are no bigger.

Today, I looked at larger 100 cup coffee urns, the best option was a stainless 1650 watt model.

All circuits in this very old house are 15 amp and of unknown integrity (they may have been installed by who knows who before codes came along) so I don't think it's wise to max out the circuit.

The hot plate and stock pot option also makes me nervous since we have a couple cats and while I think it's unlikely anything bad would happen, you just never know, they do go wild, running and playing, from time to time.

What would you do?

Thanks!

~Martin

Edited January 9, 2013 by DiggingDogFarm (log)

[Syzygies]

The hot plate and stock pot option

In the kitchen where I have the SousVideMagic, I've used a hot plate and stock pot as my primary method for years. I could say you want this option in any case, whatever else you do. The SousVideMagic is modular so you're not boxed in to a single approach.

Before I knew about the SousVideMagic, I bought a commercial soup warmer with the idea of rigging it to an eBay PID. Forcing my hand, its internal thermostat failed, leading me to short it out of the circuit, and I learned about the SousVideMagic before I got around to the PID. In the end, I generally used the hot plate instead. I believe firmly in regular psychotic breaks where one sheds half of one's possessions (other people go in for cleanses but that's not my favorite chair) so the soup warmer got tossed. Now, with improved methods for sealing chamber vacuum bags using an impulse sealer, I'm into longer sous vide cooks where the insulation of a rice cooker makes sense, so I'm still shopping this category.

Meanwhile, what's the elephant in the room? In other threads people agonize over how to improve their game, cooking, and advice comes down to really tasting what you're doing. Meanwhile, sealing a package and launching it into outer space is flying blind, it makes sense for a restaurant where they practice the same steps every day, but asks a lot of us. And I don't believe that cooking 134 F is a test of my manhood, the best steak I've ever served sous vide was a hanger steak 140 F for three hours, with a sauce from some stock and the bag juices. (Hanger steak is tough; it needs that long to slice up like prime rib of the gods.)

I like the SousVideMagic for really controlled braises. I have a handmade ceramic bean crock that fits beautifully on a rack in my stock pot on my hot plate, in a water bath controlled by the SousVideMagic. I can sear first without fouling my chamber vacuum machine. I can taste and season as I go. What does this amount to? A really awkward version of the slow cooker one could simply buy if the CEOs in that industry weren't all dinosaurs. Nevertheless, this setup has produced many great meals.

My advice is to set up the hot plate and stock pot first, and see for yourself what size water bath you'd need for an insulated alternative. Then spec and buy that alternative.

[EnriqueB]

What is the other unit you went with?

I bought the SWID by Addélice, and the eiPOT by FreshMealsSolutions (SousVideMagic).

[haresfur]

A fellow eGullet member noted they intend the Creative unit only for light use. Perhaps they're trying to protect the top end of their market (Wang reasoned this way and missed the chance to be Apple, pretty dumb), or perhaps it really is more cheaply made.

Yes, I emailed them with a few questions about the unit and their answer included that "the unit should not be used more then 2/3 days per week". I interpreted that as low quality building and went with another unit.

I interpret it as a way of discouraging people who are going to beat the snot out of the unit or think about using it commercially. Probably no different from any other home appliance. I mean they aren't going to know how often you use it, eh?

[EnriqueB]

I interpret it as a way of discouraging people who are going to beat the snot out of the unit or think about using it commercially. Probably no different from any other home appliance. I mean they aren't going to know how often you use it, eh?

Probably, and I agree with others that this was likely marketing talking without much knowledge. I was surprised that they wrote that, especially because it was not in answer to my questions. Maybe they thought I was planning to use it commercially as I asked a good number of technical questions...

In any case, as Pedro remarks above, the PolyScience Creative specs are also somehow lower than those for SWID of SousVideChef II, at a similar price tag. These 2 are from European makers and I don't know whether they have 110V versions and how easy it is to import them into US. All 3 units are new models (SWID has not changed the name but it is a completely remade version, more powerful than the one being sold until last year), so how well they will resist time and use is still unknown.

[Martin Fisher]

re: hot plate and stock pot.

Thanks, Syzygies!

What make and model hot plate do you use or recommend?

The one I currently own isn't large and stable enough to accommodate a stock pot.

What size stock pot?

Thanks!

~Martin

[rotuts]

i think you will always do better heating the water and not the container as there may be a thermal lag from a hot plate through a thick bottom to the temp sensor.

that may be only important for eggs which are the most sensitive to sl temp changes, and of course 'rare' fish!

[Robert Jueneman]

FWIW, I use a large electric griddle in combination with my All-American 22L sterilizer, AKA "R2D2," when making large quantities of stock. I heat the sterilizer on the gas stove to bring it up to temperature and pressure, then use the griddle in combination with an SVM to control the temperature/pressure inside the stock pot/pressure cooker. Cf. http://freshmealssolutions.com/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=71:high-altitude-pressure-cooking-and-stock-making&Itemid=100088.

[Syzygies]

What make and model hot plate do you use or recommend?

What size stock pot?

My hot plate is ancient, oversized, built like a Soviet missile or United in-flight entertainment. I just haven't replaced it. It has a sealed burner, not the basic SRO model that looks like a mosquito coil. Like anything a PID controls, look for an absence of smarts that would get in the way. I browsed recently induction burners with a manual mode, but they were very expensive.

Whatever stock pot you already have. Taller is better for convection.

[jrshaul]

I managed to buy a secondhand immersion circulator for $50 on eBay. Works like a charm. You can find older units for $100 or less if you look, and given the difficulty folks have had with cobbled-together solutions, I still feel this is the superior option.

[Martin Fisher]

re: hot plates

I priced some of the best options with burners large enough to hold a stock pot in a stable fashion, but they're all quite expense.

Another issue, I don't have a large stock pot, so that would be another required purchase.

It's looking more and more like the FMM is the route that I should go for what I mostly want to do at this point, but I'll certainly keep the hot plate/stock pot option in mind in the future. The immersed bean pot is a good idea.

Thanks!

~Martin

[Martin Fisher]

FWIW, I use a large electric griddle in combination with my All-American 22L sterilizer, AKA "R2D2," when making large quantities of stock. I heat the sterilizer on the gas stove to bring it up to temperature and pressure, then use the griddle in combination with an SVM to control the temperature/pressure inside the stock pot/pressure cooker. Cf. http://freshmealssol...&Itemid=100088.

That's very clever!

I'll keep that in mind.

~Martin

[PedroG]

I'm at a loss as to what to use for a bath.

As Pedro noted, the above coffee urn is rather small, the largest slow cookers are no bigger.

Today, I looked at larger 100 cup coffee urns, the best option was a stainless 1650 watt model.

All circuits in this very old house are 15 amp and of unknown integrity (they may have been installed by who knows who before codes came along) so I don't think it's wise to max out the circuit.

The hot plate and stock pot option also makes me nervous since we have a couple cats and while I think it's unlikely anything bad would happen, you just never know, they do go wild, running and playing, from time to time.

What would you do?

Thanks!

~Martin

re: hot plates

I priced some of the best options with burners large enough to hold a stock pot in a stable fashion, but they're all quite expense.

Another issue, I don't have a large stock pot, so that would be another required purchase.

It's looking more and more like the FMM is the route that I should go for what I mostly want to do at this point, but I'll certainly keep the hot plate/stock pot option in mind in the future. The immersed bean pot is a good idea.

Thanks!

~Martin

If you are concerned about your wild cats, the best choice might have been a SousVideSupreme, no cables and tubes that can be pulled out by your cats. But as you already have the SVM controller, the FMM might in fact be your best choice for several reasons:

An immersion/submersion heater has minimal thermal inertia, making PID tuning very easy, see the last post in the old SV topic; any system that heats the container before the water has more thermal lag with more overshoot, requiring a broader proportional band and leaving you with extensive tuning experiments to find the best Integral and Derivative values (autotuning values are not the best possible values).

The new FMM has the sensor cable buried in the silicon hose, leaving less free cable for the cats to pull out; in fact it would be virtually impossible to pull the sensor out of the water bath, and if your cats pull out the sensor's plug from the SVM, the controller stops heating.

As a container, I would recommend a tall beverage cooler where you can lock the lid so the cats can't remove the lid and jump into the water (you would be very sad, and you would not appreciate medium rare cat's meat without proper post mortem aging). I run my FMM in a 28L Campingaz beverage cooler with P=0.5 I=0 D=0 with only ±0.045 °C oscillation.

[Martin Fisher]

I'm at a loss as to what to use for a bath.

As Pedro noted, the above coffee urn is rather small, the largest slow cookers are no bigger.

Today, I looked at larger 100 cup coffee urns, the best option was a stainless 1650 watt model.

All circuits in this very old house are 15 amp and of unknown integrity (they may have been installed by who knows who before codes came along) so I don't think it's wise to max out the circuit.

The hot plate and stock pot option also makes me nervous since we have a couple cats and while I think it's unlikely anything bad would happen, you just never know, they do go wild, running and playing, from time to time.

What would you do?

Thanks!

~Martin

re: hot plates

I priced some of the best options with burners large enough to hold a stock pot in a stable fashion, but they're all quite expense.

Another issue, I don't have a large stock pot, so that would be another required purchase.

It's looking more and more like the FMM is the route that I should go for what I mostly want to do at this point, but I'll certainly keep the hot plate/stock pot option in mind in the future. The immersed bean pot is a good idea.

Thanks!

~Martin

If you are concerned about your wild cats, the best choice might have been a SousVideSupreme, no cables and tubes that can be pulled out by your cats. But as you already have the SVM controller, the FMM might in fact be your best choice for several reasons:

An immersion/submersion heater has minimal thermal inertia, making PID tuning very easy, see the last post in the old SV topic; any system that heats the container before the water has more thermal lag with more overshoot, requiring a broader proportional band and leaving you with extensive tuning experiments to find the best Integral and Derivative values (autotuning values are not the best possible values).

The new FMM has the sensor cable buried in the silicon hose, leaving less free cable for the cats to pull out; in fact it would be virtually impossible to pull the sensor out of the water bath, and if your cats pull out the sensor's plug from the SVM, the controller stops heating.

As a container, I would recommend a tall beverage cooler where you can lock the lid so the cats can't remove the lid and jump into the water (you would be very sad, and you would not appreciate medium rare cat's meat without proper post mortem aging). I run my FMM in a 28L Campingaz beverage cooler with P=0.5 I=0 D=0 with only ±0.045 °C oscillation.

Thanks for the additional information.

Generally, the cats aren't a problem, but I brought it up because most hot plates, even some commercial models, have a very small burner and no other support for a large pot....so I could envision something bad possibly happening.

I measured one today at a local restaurant equipment supplier and it's only 7-3/8" in diameter....not a very sturdy base for a stock pot. It wouldn't take much of a bump to cause problems.

It's very unlikely they'd bother something stable.

In summer I can move the sous vide operation to my enclosed porch, no worries at all then, but it's not heated in winter.

I have a 5 gallon insulated Igloo commercial beverage dispenser that may work well with the FMM, but the plastic spigot should probably be changed out to something more reliable and sure to take the heat...like a coffee urn spigot.

~Martin

Edited January 10, 2013 by DiggingDogFarm (log)

[Robert Jueneman]

Pedro, I certainly like and agree with your recommendation for using a tall beverage cooler in combination with a FMM. Your 28 L cooler is even bigger than my sterilizer, although of course it can't double as a pressure cooker.

Unfortunately, the coyotes got my cat and didn't return him, so I am unable to comment on the proper technique for feline post-mortem aging. Would the recommended technique involve dry aging in the refrigerator, or would it be better to use a smoking technique, perhaps controlled by an SVM? :-)

[Martin Fisher]

I just ordered the FMM.

I've gone a bit over the monthly budget for such projects, but not a big deal as long as the better-half doesn't notice! LOL

~Martin

[Martin Fisher]

my All-American 22L sterilizer, AKA "R2D2,"

What's the major difference between the All-American sterilizers and canners?

I have two All-American canners.

Thanks!

~Martin

[Robert Jueneman]

my All-American 22L sterilizer, AKA "R2D2,"

What's the major difference between the All-American sterilizers and canners?

I have two All-American canners.

Thanks!

~Martin

The primary difference, as far as I know, is that the canners have a traditional jiggle-type weight, which gives you the option of 5, 10, or 15 PSI, but that is relative to sea-level pressure.

The sterilizers, on the other hand, have a pressure gauge, and that requires as certain minimum level of intelligence in order to control it -- something that the FDA is clearly not ready to assume that most consumers possess, just as they assume that consumer don't have a thermometer, nor a timer, and can't be trusted to use either one, and therefore everything has to be over-cooked to 165F.

If you are at a high altitude, as I am (7000 ft), I believe you can easily convert a canner to a sterilizer by simply replacing the jiggle-valve with a pressure sensor.

Otherwise, your canners will probably do just fine, although you might want to modify them to allow an SVM to monitor the internal temperature.

Bob

[Martin Fisher]

my All-American 22L sterilizer, AKA "R2D2,"

What's the major difference between the All-American sterilizers and canners?

I have two All-American canners.

Thanks!

~Martin

The primary difference, as far as I know, is that the canners have a traditional jiggle-type weight, which gives you the option of 5, 10, or 15 PSI, but that is relative to sea-level pressure.

The sterilizers, on the other hand, have a pressure gauge, and that requires as certain minimum level of intelligence in order to control it -- something that the FDA is clearly not ready to assume that most consumers possess, just as they assume that consumer don't have a thermometer, nor a timer, and can't be trusted to use either one, and therefore everything has to be over-cooked to 165F.

If you are at a high altitude, as I am (7000 ft), I believe you can easily convert a canner to a sterilizer by simply replacing the jiggle-valve with a pressure sensor.

Otherwise, your canners will probably do just fine, although you might want to modify them to allow an SVM to monitor the internal temperature.

Bob

Thanks!

878 ft. here, where I do most of my cooking, and 1948 ft. at the place in the hills.

~Martin

[Martin Fisher]

It appears that most, is not all, Igloo, Coleman and Rubbermaid cooler lids are not insulated, other than the dead air space.

Does anyone know for sure?

I'm thinking that it may be good idea to drill a hole and fill the cavity with expanded perlite and then close-up the hole with a stainless steel toggle bolt and washer.

Thoughts?

Sorry! I have OCD!

Thanks!

~Martin

[rotuts]

coolers keep things cold. the top need not be insulated and only heat rises. I drilled several small holes in my various tops and filled the top with non- expandable canned foam insulation ( Home Depot ) . you need not bother, just cover top in plastic ( moisture barrier of sorts ) and then cover with a few light blankets.

Edited January 11, 2013 by rotuts (log)

[Raamo]

The primary difference, as far as I know, is that the canners have a traditional jiggle-type weight, which gives you the option of 5, 10, or 15 PSI, but that is relative to sea-level pressure.

The sterilizers, on the other hand, have a pressure gauge, and that requires as certain minimum level of intelligence in order to control it -- something that the FDA is clearly not ready to assume that most consumers possess, just as they assume that consumer don't have a thermometer, nor a timer, and can't be trusted to use either one, and therefore everything has to be over-cooked to 165F.

My wife's pressure canner that I bought from a Wisconsin company has both a pressure gauge and a weight that goes on. When we made the polenta in MC@H we used this giant pot since we were basically canning... when the pressure got up to ~13 psi the weight started jiggling a lot and it freaked my wife out since she's never seen that before. When she cans she only goes to 11 psi since that's what the canning books she has say to do..

Since it has both the weight and the gague is this a combo of what you describe above or just a normally pressure cooker?

On the topic of Sous Vide I picked up the Sous Vide Professional Creative Series by Poly Science last night at W-S, it came free with a container that W-S tossed in that holds more then 20L but at the sane water level is 20L and it seems to be as big as I could ever need for the party size I would expect to cook for. I'm guessing this device would handle more then 20L but not to the accurency of .1C, I guess I could try it in the former mentioned giant pressure pot which is more then 20L.

[Robert Jueneman]

The primary difference, as far as I know, is that the canners have a traditional jiggle-type weight, which gives you the option of 5, 10, or 15 PSI, but that is relative to sea-level pressure.

The sterilizers, on the other hand, have a pressure gauge, and that requires as certain minimum level of intelligence in order to control it -- something that the FDA is clearly not ready to assume that most consumers possess, just as they assume that consumer don't have a thermometer, nor a timer, and can't be trusted to use either one, and therefore everything has to be over-cooked to 165F.

My wife's pressure canner that I bought from a Wisconsin company has both a pressure gauge and a weight that goes on. When we made the polenta in MC@H we used this giant pot since we were basically canning... when the pressure got up to ~13 psi the weight started jiggling a lot and it freaked my wife out since she's never seen that before. When she cans she only goes to 11 psi since that's what the canning books she has say to do..

Since it has both the weight and the gague is this a combo of what you describe above or just a normally pressure cooker?

I think that is just a normal pressure cooker/canner. I run my sterilizer at 17 PSI, which would really freak out your wife from the noise!

[Martin Fisher]

coolers keep things cold. the top need not be insulated and only heat rises.

No doubt, but the old Coleman coolers were insulated all the way around.

~Martin