Sous Vide Chuck Roast: The Topic

[FourMat]

Hi Folks,

I have been using the sous vide technique for about 2 years and I have consistently had an issue with cooking chuck steak/roast. A few days ago I cooked a 3 lb chuck roast, 135F for 48 hours, rubbed with dry rub reminiscent of one used for smoking (salt, paprika, cumin, onion powder, garlic powder, and small amount of brown sugar). I ended up with a beautifully tender piece of meat that rivals prime rib, but the resulting flavor profile is distinctly sour. It doesn't seem to matter how the beef is spiced, it always seems to come out this way. The interior of the meat has a decent beefy flavor, but the liquid is very "tart". Has anyone else run across this issue? Is this just a super concentrated intense beef essence?

I'm not calling it a "problem" per se, but I don't feel that I can use the runoff liquid as au jus because the flavor is so strong, and I'm at a loss as to what else to do with it because a reduction would only intensify it. Can anyone recommend a possibly solution? Any guidance would be appreciated.

[GlowingGhoul]

How accurate is your temperature control? What equiptment are you using?

[FourMat]

I am using a my own home brew version originally posted on the original Seattle Food Geek DIY Sous Vide construction. This is my second refined build which uses a PT100 temp probe accurate to 0.1 degrees. I have calibrated the probe and have a high confidence level that it is running accurately. (verified with known temp probes).

[rotuts]

as I understand it: you are using the above rub. The inner meat tastes different/better than the exterior.

If this is the case, its probably the rub.

i do SV chuck all the time. and turkey. I use this:

http://www.cfsauer.com/products.asp?id=24

Prime Rib & Roast Seasoning, RUB (00575) (3.5 oz. jar)

$1.40

Now 50% Off!

Reg. $2.80

its my favorite rub for "Roast Beef" taste. oddly do to the rosemary and sage, its outstanding on both white meat and dark meat Turks.

change you rub and try again?

it might be the paprika. if not really 'fresh' I can see that at 48 hrs becoming somewhat sour.

Edited January 18, 2012 by rotuts (log)

[slkinsey]

If you're getting a sour flavor, that suggests that you are growing some kind of bacteria in the bag that produces acid. This could be from the spices or it could be from the surface of the meat. Why don't you try thoroughly searing the outside of the meat before bagging it, and don't use any spices. Then cook as normal and see whether you still get the same result. If you don't have the sourness after doing this, that tells you something.

[vengroff]

If you're getting a sour flavor, that suggests that you are growing some kind of bacteria in the bag that produces acid. This could be from the spices or it could be from the surface of the meat. Why don't you try thoroughly searing the outside of the meat before bagging it, and don't use any spices. Then cook as normal and see whether you still get the same result. If you don't have the sourness after doing this, that tells you something.

I agree. Another thing to watch for is gas in the bag, which is a sign that bacteria is present. There should be nothing but solid and liquid in the bag, even after long cooking. If there is a bubble of gas at the top of the bag, you'd be well advised not to eat the contents.

[GlowingGhoul]

If you're getting a sour flavor, that suggests that you are growing some kind of bacteria in the bag that produces acid. This could be from the spices or it could be from the surface of the meat. Why don't you try thoroughly searing the outside of the meat before bagging it, and don't use any spices. Then cook as normal and see whether you still get the same result. If you don't have the sourness after doing this, that tells you something.

I agree. Another thing to watch for is gas in the bag, which is a sign that bacteria is present. There should be nothing but solid and liquid in the bag, even after long cooking. If there is a bubble of gas at the top of the bag, you'd be well advised not to eat the contents.

Not to nitpick, but don't some longer cooks, at higher SV temps like 70+ sometimes result in phase change puffing up the bag a little? My briskets almost always have a small bubble in the corner of the bag after 24 hours, but there are no off flavors or odors (of course, I keep the bags weighed down so they remain fully submerged).

Edited January 18, 2012 by GlowingGhoul (log)

[rotuts]

Ive had small bubbles sometimes. Im fairly sure they were there from the beginning --- sometimes a small amount of air gets trapped in the lower corner area when the meat fills the bag side to side. I try to 'massage' it out before the seal but this does not always seem possible.

flavor and opening aroma's were always fine. this is only a small bubble.

[FourMat]

Well, admittedly I do tend to use paprika a lot on my red meats so that might be the common thread throughout. Next time I will just use plain salt/pepper. I'm still getting used to accounting for a flavor difference in various foods and spices when used sous vide (ie raw garlic)

There wasn't a gas bubble in the bag, and I have it restrained to keep it submerged. The only time I've experienced a gas bubble was when heating to 170F+. I'm pretty conscious of the safety considerations with sous vide, so I don't beleive it was a bacterial issue.

I have done a lot of other dishes, from fish to poultry to sausages to veggies, and I'm a huge believer in the technique. My god, the thanksgiving turkey was incredible.

I have read a lot about but haven't actually searing pre-bagging. I was under the impression that the camelization flavors ended up being negated during the long cooking process. Has anyone else had success with this? I have been searing post sous vide to varying degrees of success, but have never really had an end product that had the depth of flavor that grilling alone produces.

[vengroff]

Not to nitpick, but don't some longer cooks, at higher SV temps like 70+ sometimes result in phase change puffing up the bag a little? My briskets almost always have a small bubble in the corner of the bag after 24 hours, but there are no off flavors or odors (of course, I keep the bags weighed down so they remain fully submerged).

If it's quite small, I guess it's probably OK. But it's one more warning sign. Certainly in combination with an odor, I would not eat it.

[Edited typo.]

Edited January 18, 2012 by vengroff (log)

[Mikels]

I think it may be as vengroff says. Once I cooked a a roast that went bad (smell, puffed bag.....). The suggestion I had was to dunk the meat in boiling water for a minute or two to kill any surface pathogens. Since the interior is sterile all you need do is get the ones on the outside. If I have any concern, that is what I do now. Since the rub or spices will diffuse in the cooking liquid excreted by the meat, I don't rub them in, since your hands or board might be a source for bacteria.

[Joe Blowe]

Perusing sous vide threads and blog entries here at eG and elsewhere, one is quick to note that chuck roast (also referred to as chuck steak) is usually one of the first cuts of beef prepared by the owner of a new SV rig. No wonder; its fat content and connective tissue makes for a tasty cut!

Please feel free to add notes and results from previous cooks, and tips or suggestions for future preparations.

[Joe Blowe]

So, after years of research and bookmarking , I finally broke down and bought a SideKIC. The next step was to get a smaller cooler than what I already had on hand. (An 8-quart Cambro has also been converted and put to use).

With everything in place, I jumped right in and picked up a 3 lb. chuck roast. As I was excited to get started, I skipped the trimming and removal of silverskin and such. I just lightly coated it with salt, pepper, and a little garlic powder, and put it in at 131F/55C for 24 hours.

(I had read that salting meat before a long cook might have a “corning” effect, but it wasn't noticeable.)

At the end of the SV cook, I slid it right under our infrared broiler for 2 minutes per side. It was great! But, there's room for improvement.

Here's my next project: My sister-in-law has volunteered to host Christmas dinner at her place, and the guest list has grown to about 35 people! She's in desperate need of extra mains now, i.e. any type of roast meat, and I said I'd bring three chuck roasts to the party.

• I'm thinking of taking the temp to 132F and cooking for 48 hours this time. There were some gristly parts on the last roast that could've used a bit more time in the bath. I'll season with some type of rub, less salt.
  

• At the end of the cook, chill in an ice bath then refrigerate overnight.
  

• Next day, open the bags and reserve liquid to make a jus.
  

• Vacuum pack the individual roasts again, this time with salt. Put back in the fridge until drive time.
  

• Before leaving the house, fill my larger cooler with 130F water, toss the bagged roasts in, and drive an hour to their house.
  

• Upon arrival, fire up their grill and put some color on the roasts. Heat the jus, slice the browned roasts, and arrange in their chafing dish.
  

It sounds like a great plan on paper, but of course I'm worried about the second vacuum packing and water bath. I know it's pasteurized at this point, but is there any cause for concern? Maybe I should just keep them chilled until arrival, and then bring them up to temp when it's closer to dinner time?

[rotuts]

as your studies of "Chuck" continue, you will note that there are several muscles in this lump of meat, and indeed different places or at different times they may not be all the muscle groups.

they behave differently, and indeed taste different.

Ive done 130 x 72 and 130 x 48 +

some of these muscle groups became 'mealy' after 72. some were astonishingly good and tasty and folk tender.

good luck! keep a notebook on your studies and try to define the various muscles included in the "Chuck"

[Robert Jueneman]

So, after years of research and bookmarking , I finally broke down and bought a SideKIC. The next step was to get a smaller cooler than what I already had on hand. (An 8-quart Cambro has also been converted and put to use).

With everything in place, I jumped right in and picked up a 3 lb. chuck roast. As I was excited to get started, I skipped the trimming and removal of silverskin and such. I just lightly coated it with salt, pepper, and a little garlic powder, and put it in at 131F/55C for 24 hours.

(I had read that salting meat before a long cook might have a “corning” effect, but it wasn't noticeable.)

At the end of the SV cook, I slid it right under our infrared broiler for 2 minutes per side. It was great! But, there's room for improvement.

Here's my next project: My sister-in-law has volunteered to host Christmas dinner at her place, and the guest list has grown to about 35 people! She's in desperate need of extra mains now, i.e. any type of roast meat, and I said I'd bring three chuck roasts to the party.

• I'm thinking of taking the temp to 132F and cooking for 48 hours this time. There were some gristly parts on the last roast that could've used a bit more time in the bath. I'll season with some type of rub, less salt.
  

• At the end of the cook, chill in an ice bath then refrigerate overnight.
  

• Next day, open the bags and reserve liquid to make a jus.
  

• Vacuum pack the individual roasts again, this time with salt. Put back in the fridge until drive time.
  

• Before leaving the house, fill my larger cooler with 130F water, toss the bagged roasts in, and drive an hour to their house.
  

• Upon arrival, fire up their grill and put some color on the roasts. Heat the jus, slice the browned roasts, and arrange in their chafing dish.
  

It sounds like a great plan on paper, but of course I'm worried about the second vacuum packing and water bath. I know it's pasteurized at this point, but is there any cause for concern? Maybe I should just keep them chilled until arrival, and then bring them up to temp when it's closer to dinner time?

The biggest concern that I would have regarding your plan is the time required to reheat the roasts.

Because you didn't say, let me guess that your roasts are 40 mm thick. Then according to Sous Vide Dash, it would take about 1:30 to chill in an ice bath (shorter if you use my chilled vodka technique), then 4:00 hours to reheat to 131F in a 132F bath. If they are even thicker, the time would increase with the square of the thickness.

So I think it might be better to delay the start of your cooking to two days before Christmas (if you really believe that 48 hours is required -- I've always been happy with 24 hours for chuck), then throw them (still hot) in your cooler filled with 132 water, and drive to your sister-in-law's.

Then you can pour off the jus, dry the meat, and sear the roasts under the broiler per your original plan.

Alternatively, cook the roasts sous vide, sear them, and then slice them into smaller portions and package and chill them. Then the various slices can be reheated much more quickly. Maybe this wouldn't be quite a sexy as slicing a huge roast in front of everyone, but it would be a lot easier to serve 35 people.

[Joe Blowe]

So I think it might be better to delay the start of your cooking to two days before Christmas (if you really believe that 48 hours is required -- I've always been happy with 24 hours for chuck), then throw them (still hot) in your cooler filled with 132 water, and drive to your sister-in-law's.

[...]

Alternatively, cook the roasts sous vide, sear them, and then slice them into smaller portions and package and chill them. Then the various slices can be reheated much more quickly. Maybe this wouldn't be quite a sexy as slicing a huge roast in front of everyone, but it would be a lot easier to serve 35 people.

I like the idea of cooking until departure, but I was concerned about the drop in temp over the ensuing hour-long drive (or two, if we make stops). If I pull the roasts out of the transport cooler and see the water temp was in the 120s, would there be cause for concern?

The other option occurred to me last night, but I did get caught up in the idea of "unveiling" SV roasts to the crowd and transforming them before their very eyes! However, usually everyone is either uninterested or distracted, and they just want food NOW! I'll make my life easy and go with that!

Question regarding initial cook temp: Any perceptible differences between 131 and 132 over the course of 36 to 48 hours?

[gfweb]

FWIW I usually do not talk about the cooking method to guests. Most don't care and the one who does usually asks questions I'd rather not answer. Like stuff about safety/new-fangled technique etc etc.

[rotuts]

I'm as usual at this hour confused:

who is the guest? guests cant post?

???

[nickrey]

...

Question regarding initial cook temp: Any perceptible differences between 131 and 132 over the course of 36 to 48 hours?

For a large group of people with varying tastes and not much experience with sous vide cooked food, I'd be cooking at around 57C (135F) rather than 55C.

I also agree with Bob. You've already pasteurised the meat after cooking and you will not be over four hours below 55C on your trip. Plus you avoid chilling and reheating.

[FeChef]

Question regarding initial cook temp: Any perceptible differences between 131 and 132 over the course of 36 to 48 hours?

I cook mine @ 132F for 24-26 hours. It comes out tender with the texture of a good prime rib. I use choice grade chuck roast. That is the sweet spot for my SV setup. I found anything over 26 hours and it starts to go from tender to mushy. I would imagine 48 hours in my setup would turn to mush.

[Joe Blowe]

Thanks for the bump -- I forgot to report back!

It just so happens that I did 26 hours at 132F. I also did a post-sear, sliced and trimmed, and made a jus. There were no leftovers that night!

I do plan on coming back to this thread, once my new gear is up and running...

P.S. Today is my 10 year anniversary on eGullet. I may not be the most active poster, but I've learned a lot and use this website as my default reference guide. Thanks to everyone!

[jrshaul]

What's the best bet for getting choice grade chuck roast? An experience with buck-a-pound chicken cooked too low gave me quite the upset stomach, so I'd rather not take additional risks cooking at just 132.

[FeChef]

What's the best bet for getting choice grade chuck roast? An experience with buck-a-pound chicken cooked too low gave me quite the upset stomach, so I'd rather not take additional risks cooking at just 132.

You can get choice grade at any supermarket. It will always say "choice" on the package. I get mine at wegmans since its always 3.69/lb there and they come vacuum packed. There boneless chicken breast are always 1.99/lb and come 12 portions individualy vacuum packed. There pork butts are always 1.29/lb....love that place. Now there more popular beef cuts are kinda pricey.

[Syzygies]

If a little voice in your head wonders whether the sous vide movement and raw food movements are converging, listen. This may be blasphemy, and read to those who know as an uneducated palate, but I'm finding that higher temperatures taste better sous vide than they ever would by conventional means.

One should treat the sous vide tables as safety guidelines only, and rediscover what tastes best by extensive experiment. Painting the territory above 132 F as cowardice serving yahoo guests is really stacking the deck against an objective appraisal.

Of course, I love the more challenging cuts, like hanger steak.

[FeChef]

I have done chuck roast sous vide two ways so far.( 24 hours @132F and 24 hours @160F ) one was steak/prime rib like texture and the other shredded beef texture.

 

I am looking for something inbetween where it can easily be pulled apart but still slices nicely on the meat slicer. I also want most of the fat rendered and collagen gelatinous. I know this is a tall order but i figure someone here on egullet has found this happy medium via sous vide.