Copper cookware: Bourgeat or Falk

[boilsover]

Hi, andie:

I think you did a pretty good job on your retinning.

Peter at Rocky Mountain is really good, really fast, and reasonable. Unlike many retinners, he does both hand tinning and electroplating. When I visited his shop, I noticed a bunch of shipping boxes--from other tinners! He may also still have some of the new 4-pc planished saucepan sets, one of which I purchased from him. These are advertised as being 3mm, but my set mikes out at 2.8. I think the set is only $260, $340 with matching rimmed lids. An exceptional bargain.

[David A. Goldfarb]

I've seen a home-tinning kit under the brand name "Tin Lizzie" at Zabar's.

[Alex]

If I had to buy at anything close to today's prices, I'd be VERY happy to just have the 1.5L slope-sided saucepan. That's what I use for most serious sauce work.

Is this the one?

[andiesenji]

Alex, I think he is referring to what used to be called a "Fait Tout" that is also called a "Windsor" pan.

The sides are not curved but flare outward, the top diameter larger than the bottom as in regular sauce pans.

I could be wrong, but this is what I think of when I see "slope-sided" as pan description.

My jam pan (unlined copper) was described as slope-sided.

[paulraphael]

Alex, I think he is referring to what used to be called a "Fait Tout" that is also called a "Windsor" pan.

The sides are not curved but flare outward, the top diameter larger than the bottom as in regular sauce pans.

Yes, that's the one I'm describing. But some people prefer the curved ones because there are no corners where sauce can hide from a whisk. Both kinds are basically the same idea.

[tim]

Hi, Tim:

I think you need a new micrometer. A US Nickel is 5 hundredths of a mm under 2mm, or 1.95mm. If you could find a Half Dollar, that would be better (2.15mm). My point remains: for a quick test, if the wall gauge is thicker than a nickel, it's OK to get excited. Two pennies thick? Call your banker.

Boilsover,

You really had me flummoxed here. Solving my conundrum will make me thankful tomorrow. My problem was measuring methods. All of these coins have thicker edges and yes I was measuring at the center. Dumb me!

This has been a fun discussion, and I do love my $45 Mauviel 2 quart (2.5mm) windsor with nickel lining. I bought it at Zabars way back when... I also treasure my DeBuyer 1 Qt. windsor 2.5mm fully clad aluminum (stainless interior and copper exterior for maintenance/show) and an extra 2.5mm sandwich aluminum base. It rocks for bearnaise on direct high heat.

One factor has not been discussed is the thickness of the stainless. Some makers tout 2.5mm of copper and the typical lining adds ___mm. (Sam will know.)

Thank you for your thoughts,

Tim

[slkinsey]

The 2.5 mm copper/stainless bimetal is 2.3 mm of copper and 0.2 mm of stainless. Other methods use a much thicker layer of stainless (for example, All-Clad's stainless layers are about 0.45 mm).

[budrichard]

The 2.5 mm copper/stainless bimetal is 2.3 mm of copper and 0.2 mm of stainless. Other methods use a much thicker layer of stainless (for example, All-Clad's stainless layers are about 0.45 mm).

How did you obtain the All Clad information? I asked All Clad a number of years ago and was told that the information on thicknesses of the metals was 'proprietary'. The question at the time was in relationship to All Clad copper cookware. I already knew the answer in that the All Clad copper was not a 2.5mm copper and in reality the copper was just for appearance. I assume that the All Clad 'Copper Core' was the result of All Clad realizing that people didn't believe that All Clad copper was true copper cookware.-Dick

Edited November 25, 2011 by budrichard (log)

[tim]

The 2.5 mm copper/stainless bimetal is 2.3 mm of copper and 0.2 mm of stainless. Other methods use a much thicker layer of stainless (for example, All-Clad's stainless layers are about 0.45 mm).

How did you obtain the All Clad information? -Dick

Dick,

Much of this information was taken from All-Clad's patents for their cookware.

A few years ago, there was a blow up photo of the edge of an All-Clad pan that allowed for measurements.

Tim

[slkinsey]

The 2.5 mm copper/stainless bimetal is 2.3 mm of copper and 0.2 mm of stainless. Other methods use a much thicker layer of stainless (for example, All-Clad's stainless layers are about 0.45 mm).

How did you obtain the All Clad information? I asked All Clad a number of years ago and was told that the information on thicknesses of the metals was 'proprietary'.

1. I know some people with a basis to know the metal thicknesses used.

2. Back in the old Usenet days when All-Clad didn't have much competition and most people hadn't figured out that cookware could be compared on this basis, they were a lot more forthcoming with this sort of information.

[paulraphael]

Teflon lined copper is a depressingly cynical invention. A cruel joke on the consumer. Please don't buy it; maybe it will go away.

There are ways to make teflon linings last a long time, but no ways to make them retain their non-stick properties for a long time. These pans turn expensive materials that could be used to make heirlooms into disposable (luckily, reclyclable) paperweights.

None of this even gets into the unsuitability of nonstick surfaces for most cooking. They're terrifically helpful for eggs. They are useful for delicate fish, but even here, a bare metal surface used with good technique will give better browning, handle higher temperatures, and last essentially forever.

On a separate note, I don't find that copper requires any special maintenance. I don't let guests wash my pans, not because they're hard to clean, but because they're expensive, and guests will find ways to destroy just about anything. But I just wash the things with soapy water (sometimes BKF on the inside) and towel dry. They only require special maintenance if you insist on polishing them. I consider this to a problem with the owner, not with the pan. Stop calling it tarnish, start calling it "patina," and go enjoy life.

[David A. Goldfarb]

My teflon copper skillet is still making fine omelets. Care for it properly, and it does what it's supposed to, not that there aren't other methods. It may just require a kind of obsessive personality to keep such a pan in good condition. If you use a 10000 grit or finer Japanese waterstone for your knives, a copper teflon pan may be for you!

Edited November 27, 2011 by David A. Goldfarb (log)

[paulraphael]

Is the coating applied directly to the copper? When it loses its powers, I wonder if you could sand it off and just have the pan tinned.

[David A. Goldfarb]

I don't know yet. I think it's over stainless, but I don't know what kind of surface the stainless has. If the teflon is directly on the copper, then yes, I could have it tinned. If it's stainless, the options would be recoating with teflon, or probably removing the teflon and having the stainless surface buffed out. One way or the other, I'll still have a nice pan at the end of it.

[pep.]

I just bought two small copper sauce pans made by Bourgeat on eBay. Can any information on the thickness be gleaned from the style of the makers mark? I've included a photo below. The number indicates the diameter in centimeters (16 cm for the small pan, 20 for the larger one). The illegible part writing below says "Made in France" ;-)

Both pans have cast-iron handles, so judging by weight is difficult (small one: ~3.5 lbs., larger one: slightly more than 5 lbs.), and the rims are flared.

[boilsover]

Hi, Pep:

From the size/weights you gave, you have bought best-grade pans, perhaps more than 2.5mm. If you don't have a micrometer or decent caliper, do the coin test. I have a 24cm pan I have good reason to believe is also a Bougeat, but bears no mark; it mikes out at 3.1mm. If you do the coin test on the flared rim, subtract about 25%

Cheers

Edited December 9, 2011 by boilsover (log)

[David A. Goldfarb]

This link posted in another thread may offer a hint to explain the longevity of my copper/teflon pan--

http://www.meyergroup.co.uk/cookware/MeyerCookwareGuide2.html?Lang=1

Beyond my own obsessiveness about such things, it could be that the even heat distribution of copper is protecting the teflon coating. Presumably, if one is diligent about avoiding metal utensils and abrasives, the coating deteriorates fastest around hotspots, so reducing hotspots should be prevent peeling and general heat degradation of the teflon surface.