The cost of pizza

[slkinsey]

I've used a local fresh mozz made by a retired physician and while it was tasty it was just to "wet" for my pizza. Invariably it left the dough soggy and detracted from the overall pizza.

Depends on what you want, I guess. I like mine to look like this.

[Raoul Duke]

It looks great and I get the same effect with the BelGioiso cheese and Buffalo mozz. The problem for me, among other things according to the wife, is when sliced for 6-8 people it tends to run off and loses it's tip structure. The wetter cheese suits a single serving for knife and fork, as does adding an egg. More in the true Neopolitan fashion. Either way you're right, it's what you want.

[Will]

Those real San Marzano tomatoes are NEVER crushed, pureed or diced, or even called "organic" (that word is not known in Italy). So whenever you read that on your can, it is a fake product, and you are about to pay too much for that seemingly cheaper product.

I don't know how organic certification works, or whether or not there are DOP San Marzano tomatoes labeled as organically-grown, but there certainly are organically-grown products from Italy, usually referred to as 'Bio'.

[Norm Matthews]

W are takkin pizza in the middle of August when garden fresh tomatoes are everywhere for goodness sake. Who buys or even cares about canned tomatoes this time of year.... for a pizza no less???

[Paul Bacino]

W are takkin pizza in the middle of August when garden fresh tomatoes are everywhere for goodness sake. Who buys or even cares about canned tomatoes this time of year.... for a pizza no less???

Good Call.. but i'm not sure about the acidity in the tomatoes that I'm getting.. seems like I have to add a bit of red wine vinegar, but very sweet. My last home-made sauce was Roma, Purple cherokee, and cherry plums , garlic, oregano and salt..

Plants @ 3$/plant that's producing 6 pints a week.. my sauce is cheap,!! Sometimes I'll use a Rao's sauces @ about 6$ a jar. Yes we do the plums.. I use Carmalina

Now it is the darn wild yeast dough that was kickin my butt...

[Fat Guy]

Home-grown and farmers'-market tomatoes can be wonderful in many ways. They are not however direct substitutes for San Marzano DOP tomatoes. You won't find most (or perhaps any) of the world's top pizzerias switching to fresh local tomatoes in season. It's a different animal.

[Raoul Duke]

Speaking of tomatoes, has anyone tried the Chris Bianco/Rob NaPoli canned organic plum tomatoes? FG, do you think a fresh, blanched, peeled and crushed San Marzano type tomato, brings something better to a pizza vs. the canned DOP San Marzano's? I can see where pizzeria's don't switch totally since they've developed a following w/the canned product, throughout the year, but certainly seasonal changes occur.

[Will]

Having DOP certified tomatoes and Italian 00 flour is most important if you are trying to produce true Neopolitan pizza, especially if you're concerned about being certified as such. For other styles of pizza, that may not be necessary, and may not even give the desired results. I know Jeff Varasano actually *prefers* the non-DOP-certified Cento brand tomatoes for his NY style pizza, and this is probably more "authentic" for a NY style pie. Either way, quality ingredients for pizza have definitely gone up in cost. But I would venture a guess that at most restaurants, the cost of ingredients is still a small percentage of what you're paying for, whether you're paying $11 or $20+ for the pizza.

Of course, even within legitimately DOP certified tomatoes, there is variation in quality, and conversely, there are San Marzano style tomatoes, made with the same cultivar, which are quite good, even if not grown in the officially designated area.

While I've had good pizzas with fresh tomatoes on them, either as a topping or on a sauceless pizza, I think the best and most consistent results for a normal style pizza sauce will come with good quality canned tomatoes.

Edited August 25, 2011 by Will (log)

[german vegetarian chef]

Those real San Marzano tomatoes are NEVER crushed, pureed or diced, or even called "organic" (that word is not known in Italy). So whenever you read that on your can, it is a fake product, and you are about to pay too much for that seemingly cheaper product.

I don't know how organic certification works, or whether or not there are DOP San Marzano tomatoes labeled as organically-grown, but there certainly are organically-grown products from Italy, usually referred to as 'Bio'.

Of course you are correct, this was a language misunderstanding. I meant that the english term "organic" was not use in Italy, they are using another word for their certified "organic" items, namely biologico or Bio for short. Just as in my own country, we also call things Bio.

I am sorry for this confusion!

[Norm Matthews]

Home-grown and farmers'-market tomatoes can be wonderful in many ways. They are not however direct substitutes for San Marzano DOP tomatoes. You won't find most (or perhaps any) of the world's top pizzerias switching to fresh local tomatoes in season. It's a different animal.

Of course it's a different animal... and it should be. When I go to the trouble of making a pizza here in this small town in Kansas, I want to use the freshest local ingredients and do not care whether an Italian commune puts a stamp of approval on it. If I wanted it to taste like a commercial pizza, I'd save myself some sweat and just go buy one.

[Aloha Steve]

I really liked making my own tomato sauce with San Marzano tomatoes, or at lest I thought I was buying the real thing . Anyway my problem was taking the seeds out.

Does anyone know of a San Marzano type, high quality which is deseeded? Or anyone have a real easy technique for deseeding? I like to make end up with about 8 quarts of sauce after simmering at a time so it would be a big help.

As I write this, I have my forearm across my eyes, I've taken to buying at Costco the three packs of Classico basil tomato sauce, adding paste, and doctoring up with seasoning.

Its does not taste bad but its a long way from when I did my own from scratch.

Edited August 27, 2011 by Aloha Steve (log)

[LindaK]

Does anyone know of a San Marzano type, high quality which is deseeded? Or anyone have a real easy technique for deseeding? I like to make end up with about 8 quarts of sauce after simmering at a time so it would be a big help.

The simplest and most effective way I know to remove seeds and skin is to use a food mill.

[Panaderia Canadiense]

Home-grown and farmers'-market tomatoes can be wonderful in many ways. They are not however direct substitutes for San Marzano DOP tomatoes. You won't find most (or perhaps any) of the world's top pizzerias switching to fresh local tomatoes in season. It's a different animal.

Hold on. This sounds like you're trying to replicate a commercial pizza at home, something that you didn't mention up at the beginning of the thread! Of course it's going to be expensive for you. I'm with Norm. If you want a commercial-style pizza, go out and buy one, and save yourself the angst. You've already mentioned that you have an itty-bitty kitchen, and you're never going to have the room for the proper oven, let alone the bulk-quantity purchasing power that brings those ingredients down to reasonable prices.

And yes, fresh tomatoes are a completely different beastie but the pizza produced with them is also a completely different beastie. And a better one, in my humble opinion. Perhaps if you let go of the dream of a perfect commercial pizza at home, you'll realize this.

[slkinsey]

I wouldn't call it a "commercial style pizza" just because it uses high quality canned tomatoes. Especially since 99.9% of commercial pizza in the United States is an abomination. He's not trying to make Pizza Hut or Domino's pizza at home. He's trying to make the best quality pizza he can make at home without changing things to the point that he has to step outside the traditional conception of pizza. Pizza made with a base of walnut and cilantro pesto and topped with Mexican cheese would be less expensive than using D.O.P. San Marzano tomatoes and handmade fresh mozzarella. And it might even be good. But at some point you're not really "making pizza at home" so much as you are "making something pizza-like at home."

As for canned versus fresh tomatoes... if you like the taste of fresh tomatoes on your pizza, then by all means that is what you should use. But cooking tomatoes for a length of time (which with canned tomatoes happens inside the can as they're being pasteurized) creates some significant flavor compounds that are not present in fresh tomatoes. This is why you have to cook the sauce for such a long time in order to get the traditional "cooked tomato sauce" flavor when you use fresh tomatoes instead of canned. It's also a good reason to only use fresh tomatoes in a "fresh tomato sauce" and not in one that is traditionally a cooked tomato sauce. So, for example, you wouldn't want to use fresh tomatoes when making bucatini all'amatriciana because it wouldn't taste right.

As for pizza, a significant element of the traditional flavor profile comes from using cooked (but not overcooked!) tomatoes. Fresh tomatoes do not provide the traditional flavor profile. As with all things, you should let your own tastes and preferences guide your cooking. Personally, I do not particularly care for the fresh tomato flavor in pizza. More to the point, it seems clear that Steven and most of the rest of us are talking about the expense and challenges of making pizza at home that fits within the general model of traditional pizza, which is to say canned tomatoes, mozzarella and yeast-risen dough. Pizza with a fresh tomato base instead of a canned tomato base simply doesn't have that "pizza" taste. Of course it's possible to make pizza at home much less expensively if your idea of homemade pizza means using nontraditional ingredients.

[Raoul Duke]

Interesting that the VPN guide to making pizza lists canned and/or fresh tomatoes. Insuring that the tomatoes are fresh, not genetically modified and are authentic San Marzano's. It doesn't say they must be cooked for the traditional "cooked tomato sauce" you cite. Seems as though they think it's still "traditional" with freh tomatoes. I also don't know what that "pizza" taste is, maybe you can enlighten me.

[Raoul Duke]

Steve, I'm growing a San Marzano type tomato here as I did when I lived on Maui. They have a thick skin and do well with the insect population of Hawaii. They are large, have a very meaty body, low moisture content, minimal seed rows that are easily removed. These are not Roma which can grow and work well with some fruit characteristic changes. The San Marzano styles can be used on pizza blanched, peeled, seeded, strained and crushed. I use an immersion blender w/some sea salt and oregano. You can cook these with a bit of paste for a different sauce style.

[Will]

I really liked making my own tomato sauce with San Marzano tomatoes, or at lest I thought I was buying the real thing . Anyway my problem was taking the seeds out.

Does anyone know of a San Marzano type, high quality which is deseeded? Or anyone have a real easy technique for deseeding? I like to make end up with about 8 quarts of sauce after simmering at a time so it would be a big help.

San Marzanos don't have that many seeds. With fresh San Marzano style tomatoes, I would peel and half, and then squeeze out the seeds. But with canned ones, whole and already peeled, I usually just kind of squeeze the tomato to get rid of the juice / seeds inside. Or, if you want to use the thinner juice / puree, you can squeeze the tomato into the can of puree, then strain the seeds out of all the liquid at the end, as described here:

http://www.varasanos.com/PizzaRecipe.htm

As mentioned above, genuine DOP San Marzanos (actually certified to have been grown in the protected area) will always be whole (with seeds).

[Norm Matthews]

I wouldn't call it a "commercial style pizza" just because it uses high quality canned tomatoes. Especially since 99.9% of commercial pizza in the United States is an abomination. He's not trying to make Pizza Hut or Domino's pizza at home. He's trying to make the best quality pizza he can make at home without changing things to the point that he has to step outside the traditional conception of pizza. Pizza made with a base of walnut and cilantro pesto and topped with Mexican cheese would be less expensive than using D.O.P. San Marzano tomatoes and handmade fresh mozzarella. And it might even be good. But at some point you're not really "making pizza at home" so much as you are "making something pizza-like at home."

As for canned versus fresh tomatoes... if you like the taste of fresh tomatoes on your pizza, then by all means that is what you should use. But cooking tomatoes for a length of time (which with canned tomatoes happens inside the can as they're being pasteurized) creates some significant flavor compounds that are not present in fresh tomatoes. This is why you have to cook the sauce for such a long time in order to get the traditional "cooked tomato sauce" flavor when you use fresh tomatoes instead of canned. It's also a good reason to only use fresh tomatoes in a "fresh tomato sauce" and not in one that is traditionally a cooked tomato sauce. So, for example, you wouldn't want to use fresh tomatoes when making bucatini all'amatriciana because it wouldn't taste right.

As for pizza, a significant element of the traditional flavor profile comes from using cooked (but not overcooked!) tomatoes. Fresh tomatoes do not provide the traditional flavor profile. As with all things, you should let your own tastes and preferences guide your cooking. Personally, I do not particularly care for the fresh tomato flavor in pizza. More to the point, it seems clear that Steven and most of the rest of us are talking about the expense and challenges of making pizza at home that fits within the general model of traditional pizza, which is to say canned tomatoes, mozzarella and yeast-risen dough. Pizza with a fresh tomato base instead of a canned tomato base simply doesn't have that "pizza" taste. Of course it's possible to make pizza at home much less expensively if your idea of homemade pizza means using nontraditional ingredients.

There is always going to be discussions about how far native peoples have to go to prepare ethnic food when they no longer live where indigenous ingredients are plentiful, but it seems to me that if one thinks pizza has to be made from flour, tomatoes and cheese from certain regions and species of plants and animals, only available in Italy, they shouldn’t complain about how much it is going to cost.

[Panaderia Canadiense]

Exactly, Norm. At that point, I'd also be challenging the tomato as an Italian plant, since it's an import.

[Aloha Steve]

Steve, I'm growing a San Marzano type tomato here as I did when I lived on Maui. They have a thick skin and do well with the insect population of Hawaii. They are large, have a very meaty body, low moisture content, minimal seed rows that are easily removed. These are not Roma which can grow and work well with some fruit characteristic changes. The San Marzano styles can be used on pizza blanched, peeled, seeded, strained and crushed. I use an immersion blender w/some sea salt and oregano. You can cook these with a bit of paste for a different sauce style.

Thanks......I have a very small back yard and have never grown anything, am a city boy, but if did, I could try tomatoes. Maybe I can ask one of the Ohana to do for me and

I'll share the sauce Where would I get the seedlings or are they seeds?

Edited August 28, 2011 by Aloha Steve (log)

[patrickamory]

I just ordered two cans of the Dani Coop San Marzanos & will report back.

[Lisa Shock]

I like to use lightly crushed or cut up tomatoes pretty much straight from the can, the seeds don't bother me so much. I started doing this after reading Jeff Varasano's website he does have a pretty good procedure for seed removal. Anyway, I like the cleaner, more intense tomato flavor I get from this. But, it's a matter of personal preference. I used sauce for years, and everyone was happy with that too.

[ScoopKW]

Exactly, Norm. At that point, I'd also be challenging the tomato as an Italian plant, since it's an import.

Sure, the tomato was brought to Europe in the 16th century. And it didn't really gain favor in Italy until much later. But I think it's been long enough that we can stop calling it an import. So what if the tomato is an adopted child in the food culture of Italy? It's still family.

[patrickamory]

Exactly, Norm. At that point, I'd also be challenging the tomato as an Italian plant, since it's an import.

Sure, the tomato was brought to Europe in the 16th century. And it didn't really gain favor in Italy until much later. But I think it's been long enough that we can stop calling it an import. So what if the tomato is an adopted child in the food culture of Italy? It's still family.

Right, plus there has been centuries of breeding, grafting and cultivars - plus the terroir claimed for the DOP. There's no need to be jingoistic about the tomato.

[HungryC]

I really liked making my own tomato sauce with San Marzano tomatoes, or at lest I thought I was buying the real thing . Anyway my problem was taking the seeds out.

Does anyone know of a San Marzano type, high quality which is deseeded? Or anyone have a real easy technique for deseeding? I like to make end up with about 8 quarts of sauce after simmering at a time so it would be a big help.

As I write this, I have my forearm across my eyes, I've taken to buying at Costco the three packs of Classico basil tomato sauce, adding paste, and doctoring up with seasoning.

Its does not taste bad but its a long way from when I did my own from scratch.

That's why I use the Cento passata...it is seedless, yet not watery like most chopped or crushed tomatoes.