The World's Most Controversial Food Figure

[wkl]

Alice Waters is known outside the USA. Not to the extent that Ronald Mcdonald is, but saying she is practically unknown is a bit of a stretch. she may be known mostly to professional chefs in europe, but she is a known culinary figurte.

The US's influence on food is no more large than the influence many, many cultures have had on American food.

There are many places you can go in the world where a cheeseburger for a meal isn't an option.

[weinoo]

Alice Waters is known outside the USA. Not to the extent that Ronald Mcdonald is, but saying she is practically unknown is a bit of a stretch. she may be known mostly to professional chefs in europe, but she is a known culinary figurte.

Well put.

Another interesting facet of the Alice debate is recalling how many people, eGers among them, slammed AW after the 60 minutes piece - especially after cooking that egg in olive oil in a long-handled spoon over a fire.

Basically saying "who the hell cooks like that?"

Couldn't the same be said about a lot of us...click for an example of extreme cooking, and extremely delicious looking food. Tongue in cheek, of course.

[Moopheus]

The British Alice Waters?

Yes, sort of. I think Weinoo hit the nail on the head when he said Jamie is controversial for poking his nose in other people's business-i.e., how families eat, (in the UK and US), how kids eat in schools (in the UK and US), and how he hopes to change entire communities, (Huntington, WV and Los Angeles). You can't help but be conflicted when you watch Jamie on his mission.

Right, because in the US, at least, we understand that an individual's right to a close personal relationship with international food conglomerates and restaurant chains is sacred, and shall not be gainsaid. Economists tell us that consumers are rational actors making informed choices in their best self-insterest, so who are we to doubt?

[Dakki]

The US's influence on food is no more large than the influence many, many cultures have had on American food.

There are many places you can go in the world where a cheeseburger for a meal isn't an option.

There are presumably many rural places in USA where Wal-Mart is not a shopping option so, following your line of reasoning, Wal-Mart's influence in the USA isn't that great. Be that as it may:

How many places in the world are a bag of chips and a cola not an option?

How many other countries have a Food Network equivalent and how many of those channels are available on cable TV in third party countries?

What proportion of the world's population is familiar with USA-style pizza vs the original?

The USA's cultural influence is hard to overstate. People everywhere consume local or at best regional TV, films, and magazines - and if they consume imports, it'll be imports from USA, and even the locally-produced stuff is heavily influenced by those imports. You'd be much harder-pressed to find a copy of a Russian news magazine in Argentina (and vice versa) than to find a Time or a Newsweek in either of those places. Bollywood is huge in the subcontinent, but USA celebrities are known in India, while Indian film stars are virtually unknown in USA. There are a handful of regions that have made their local media industries into major exports (HK action films and Japanese cartoons come to mind) but even the influence of these pales in comparison to overwhelming might of USA's mass media exports.

Edited May 2, 2011 by Dakki (log)

[jsmeeker]

Is Jamie Oliver considered controversial? In what way?

I think it's in the poking his nose in other people's business way.

I have wondered why he doesn't reform the school foods of his own country before tackling those in the US. I smell a marketing ploy.

he did. He always mentions this on his ABC show.

[pep.]

Alice Waters is known outside the USA. Not to the extent that Ronald Mcdonald is, but saying she is practically unknown is a bit of a stretch. she may be known mostly to professional chefs in europe, but she is a known culinary figurte.

Sure, professional chefs may know about her, but she is a far cry from a public figure and not very controversial.

Addendum: What I do find funny, though, is people from the US declaring who is well known outside the US ...

Edited May 2, 2011 by pep. (log)

[wkl]

The US's influence on food is no more large than the influence many, many cultures have had on American food.

There are many places you can go in the world where a cheeseburger for a meal isn't an option.

There are presumably many rural places in USA where Wal-Mart is not a shopping option so, following your line of reasoning, Wal-Mart's influence in the USA isn't that great. Be that as it may:

How many places in the world are a bag of chips and a cola not an option?

How many other countries have a Food Network equivalent and how many of those channels are available on cable TV in third party countries?

What proportion of the world's population is familiar with USA-style pizza vs the original?

The USA's cultural influence is hard to overstate. People everywhere consume local or at best regional TV, films, and magazines - and if they consume imports, it'll be imports from USA, and even the locally-produced stuff is heavily influenced by those imports. You'd be much harder-pressed to find a copy of a Russian news magazine in Argentina (and vice versa) than to find a Time or a Newsweek in either of those places. Bollywood is huge in the subcontinent, but USA celebrities are known in India, while Indian film stars are virtually unknown in USA. There are a handful of regions that have made their local media industries into major exports (HK action films and Japanese cartoons come to mind) but even the influence of these pales in comparison to overwhelming might of USA's mass media exports.

i was speaking strictly about influences on food. i don't disagree nor did i dispute the fact that america has had an impact across the world in terms of our fast food culture.

all i am saying is that the rest of the world has had a HUGE influence on american food culture too. using your coke and chips analogy, it's not hard at all today to pick up a bottle of red burgundy, chianti, crianza, belgian beer, etc to wash down your prosciutto on a baguette with at lunch or dinner.

[wkl]

Alice Waters is known outside the USA. Not to the extent that Ronald Mcdonald is, but saying she is practically unknown is a bit of a stretch. she may be known mostly to professional chefs in europe, but she is a known culinary figurte.

Sure, professional chefs may know about her, but she is a far cry from a public figure and not very controversial.

never said she was.

[pep.]

Alice Waters is known outside the USA. Not to the extent that Ronald Mcdonald is, but saying she is practically unknown is a bit of a stretch. she may be known mostly to professional chefs in europe, but she is a known culinary figurte.

Sure, professional chefs may know about her, but she is a far cry from a public figure and not very controversial.

never said she was.

Ah, OK. Maybe the scope of this thread is too large to answer. Even if we could eliminate the US bias a bit, I doubt which "food figure" is known and controversial in, say, China or India. Most of people put forward so far seem to TV celebrities in the US that most people from the street would know and have an opinion on. Even with satellite TV this is not the case for much of the rest of the world. I could probably name some TV cooks from Austria that would get the same kind of reaction over here (you love 'em or you hate 'em), but you wouldn't have heard of those guys. There are very few people that will get this kind of awareness globally.

Edited May 2, 2011 by pep. (log)

[PopsicleToze]

Is Jamie Oliver considered controversial? In what way?

I think it's in the poking his nose in other people's business way.

I have wondered why he doesn't reform the school foods of his own country before tackling those in the US. I smell a marketing ploy.

he did. He always mentions this on his ABC show.

I like Jamie, and teaching children a proper diet is a noble goal. However, I'm beginning to wonder if all of UK sees Americans as obese people. I'm reading 'The Year of Eating Dangerously' by Tom Parker Bowles, and he describes 2 Americans he sees in New Mexico as, 'a couple of waddling American flesh mountains.'

[PopsicleToze]

Most controversial food figure?

The miserable bastard who wrote Leviticus -- at least chapters 10 and 11.

I do admit, however, that being a gentile I had to look up the verse.

[Fengyi]

Ah, OK. Maybe the scope of this thread is too large to answer. Even if we could eliminate the US bias a bit, I doubt which "food figure" is known and controversial in, say, China or India. Most of people put forward so far seem to TV celebrities in the US that most people from the street would know and have an opinion on. Even with satellite TV this is not the case for much of the rest of the world. I could probably name some TV cooks from Austria that would get the same kind of reaction over here (you love 'em or you hate 'em), but you wouldn't have heard of those guys. There are very few people that will get this kind of awareness globally.

Hmm yes -it's really hard to get a global fix on this sort of thing. I recently had a disagreement with my office manager about Huo Wang, one of the hosts of Shiquanshimei. I think he's really fun - apparently though everyone under the age of 30 thinks he's a joke.

It made me feel very old......

BTW, there are no Western language cooking shows that I can get legally here. Though some black-market guys can hook you up with satellite from the Philippines to get Discovery T+L.... the closest I get is my legal Nat Geo Asia channel....

[Panosmex]

The USA is a small part of the world but it's a disproportionately influential part of the world. I could name a couple of "controversial" Mexican food celebs but I doubt anyone in the UK (for example) has ever heard of them. The converse is also true - except for the UK food celebs who've made the jump to USA (and therefore, international) attention.

BTW, there's a lot more to "America" than the USA, Honkman.

Oh, please do name them!

[weinoo]

Let me see if I can inject a little more perspective into the thinking about Alice Waters, a personality who is most certainly known to some chefs and food people outside the United States.

She's controversial because some people, me included, feel that she at least helped spawn a food revolution in the United States with the opening of a small Berkeley, CA restaurant called Chez Panisse. The ideology of the restaurant became the mantra for many that followed; and the number of chefs who came through that kitchen and then went on to become well-known themselves is fairly impressive.

Then Alice became a lot of people's nightmare, first with her (heaven forbid) Edible Schoolyard Program and then with her School Lunch Initiative. But it's not those programs which piss people off too much; I gather it's her attitude and personality. So there's a lot to go on, and a lot pick on.

Jamie Oliver, on the other hand, has none of the gravitas that AW owns, at least from an historical perspective. He came along at just the right time, has a great personality, can cook, has successful restaurants, and is a marketing maven's dream. Just when everyone is interested in food and watching every single show on the telly about food that they possibly can.

[Jaymes]

Carlos Petrini?

[Chris Amirault]

Oooh. I think you may be onto something there, Jaymes.

[weinoo]

The erstwhile founder of Slow Food? How so?

[Marya D.]

Rachel Ray wishes she was controversial.

[Jaymes]

The erstwhile founder of Slow Food? How so?

Not everybody is as crazy about him as he is about himself:

Carlos Petrini and Slow Food - Is this disdain I'm feeling?

_________________

Edited May 3, 2011 by Jaymes (log)

[Marya D.]

I think Ferran is pretty damn controversial and provokes as much conversation as almost anyone else in the world of food.

I've been thinking a lot about Adria since I read the Sorcerer's Apprentices. I happened to be reading it simultaneously with Fat Guy's trip to El Bulli. Which really was a trip.

I have, so far, decided that Adria is not a chef he is an Artiste. He believes he is working in a Renaissance atelier, those stagieries are his apprentices, there to grind his pigments make brushes, and clean up spatters on his perfect canvasses.

We look back now and we say that we have no idea if a painting was done by Vermeer, or The School of Vermeer, that's just the way the master wanted it. The apprentices are there to learn to imitate the master, begin by scrubbing rocks, work your way up to oxidizing fish scales, or what ever.

"Don't copy"

Don't Copy?!? Please, yer killing me Ferran.

[SobaAddict70]

The erstwhile founder of Slow Food? How so?

Not everybody is as crazy about him as he is about himself:

Carlos Petrini and Slow Food - Is this disdain I'm feeling?

_________________

The thing with Mr. Petrini is that almost no one knows of him unless they're foodies. I daresay that AW and Jamie are better-known by comparison.

Perhaps that is a good problem to have, w/r/t controversy.

edited to add a contraction

Edited May 3, 2011 by SobaAddict70 (log)

[bookluvingbabe]

Michael Pollan seems to piss a lot of people off.

[headconnect]

i was speaking strictly about influences on food. i don't disagree nor did i dispute the fact that america has had an impact across the world in terms of our fast food culture.

all i am saying is that the rest of the world has had a HUGE influence on american food culture too. using your coke and chips analogy, it's not hard at all today to pick up a bottle of red burgundy, chianti, crianza, belgian beer, etc to wash down your prosciutto on a baguette with at lunch or dinner.

Apologies for rekindling the "America vs. The World" aspect of the discussion, but I think the point of influence is both valid and substantial should a consensus emerge. Controversy in itself implies some sort of disagreement, two images that contrast. The measure of the controversy in question can be formed on the basis on how different the views are on the same subject, however to say that it's a big controversy can't simply mean that the difference of opinion is substantially large - you need a substantial amount of people caring enough about the subject to pick a side.

This is, as been heavily noted, where the US has enough influence to sway global scales. You can't have a sufficiently large controversy (at the levels being discussed here), without involving the media. As such, the reach of the media will also have an impact on how many people will make a personal decision to ignore the controversy ("they're /all/ idiots"), or take a side, and potentially propegate the discission. There's only a very few nations in the world with sufficiently popular and syndicated media to qualify as sources for such magnificent controversy, and the US is at the top of that list, both in reach and staying power (eGullet itself is a prime example, there are probably other great forums around the world, but *I* haven't heard of them).

In other words, though the chef (or other food-related person) may not be american, he/she will with high probability have appeared notably in American media.

[pep.]

In other words, though the chef (or other food-related person) may not be american, he/she will with high probability have appeared notably in American media.

Yes. But the argumentum e contrario is not true: Just because someone has appeared in the American media doesn't mean they are important to the world at large.

Edited May 3, 2011 by pep. (log)

[Dakki]

Oh, please do name them!

Enrique Olvera (selling tarted-up street food as high cuisine) and Fortino Rojas (pushing a mediated, precious version of prehispanic food) immediately come to mind. If I'm not limited to chefs I'll throw in Laura Esquivel (writer of food-based pornography).

Note that these are not necessarily my opinions.