Can You make Authentic Neapolitan Pizzas at Home?

[Wholemeal Crank]

2. I just preheated my oven until the bottom element turned red hot and then put a 1/4" steel plate with a cup covering the top on the top shelf. I left it there, with the bottom element on full blast for 2 minutes. After that time I measured the change in temp of the top of the plate. 5 degrees. In pizza terms, that's meaningless. Having an oven with the ability to have both top and bottom elements on at the same time has no bearing on whether or not 1/4" steel plate can produce a Neapolitan pizza.

The point of the discussion as I've understood it is that the metal plate, *when fully up to temperature, after a long preheat*, can transfer sufficient heat to a thin piece of dough directly in contact with it over 2 minutes to result in a nicely baked pizza.

The time it takes to preheat the metal plate itself--being heated by the air in the oven, and thus verys low--is irrelevant to the rapid heat transfer from the hot plate to the pizza.

And both the broiler and the bottom element are relevant because being able to keep them on together may permit the oven to get hotter than top element alone. What's so complicated about that?

I have been feeling a little wary about ordering the book, because so much of my cooking is not in line with what I've come to understand about molecular gastronomy--I have no interest in trying to make a spherical gel of olive-ness, I'd rather just eat an olive--but stuff like this, the discussion of heat transfer and cooking properties of the oven, taking things a LONG step past 'stones store heat and thus the oven temp doesn't drop as much when you open the door to put the pizza in', is what may make it worth it for me.

[nathanm]

This pizza discussion is quite silly. Scott123 clearly hasn't even seen the actual pages in the book that are relevant, and is going off on a tangent criticizing things that are not in the book.

Note that the instructions in the book does NOT say that the plate is at 550F. It says to put the oven at it "hottest setting", which for most ovens is 550F, for "at least" 1/2 hour. Then put the broiler on and get the plate even hotter. Then cook the pizza.

The actual tempertaure of the plate could potentially be much hotter than 550F, because the broiler is typically not regulated by air tempreature. The broiler element is typically at least 1000F. The plate does NOT come into equilibrium with it, but it can get hotter than 550F.

Nowhere do we say that this is 100% the same as a genuine "Neapolitan pizza". We do say that a Neapolitan pizza typically cooks in 2 minutes or under, and this technique can approximate that cooking time. But the "char" that Scott123 finds so precious may, or may not occur. Indeed, we don't mention char at all.

Just in case this is not clear, the whole point of this technique is to improvise a way to turn a home electric oven into something that can cook a better pizza crust. We can hardly gurantee that every random home oven will beat out a professional pizza oven. There is way too much variation in ovens to make that feasible. Some ovens will not reach the right temperature.

We find that this approach CAN improve pizza. We like the results better than a pizza stone. That's all.

The experiment that Scott123 discuses is irrelevant. I don't understand how it is relevant. He seems to be testing the wattage of his oven element - i.e. how much heat can it transfer through the plate. This is not related to the techinque, but perhaps I don't understand his experiment.

As many posts above say, the essence of this techinque is to preheat the plate as hot as you can get it with the lower oven element, we say 1/2 hour, but in some ovens you may want to go longer - it is oven dependent. Then turn on the upper broiler element and let it get the plate even hotter. Then, with the plate as hot as your oven can possibly get it, and the broiler element on full blast, put in the pizza. It will be heated from below by the hot metal plate, and from above by the broiler.

Your mileage may vary! I do NOT guarantee that you'll get a perfect char, but depending on your oven and your plate you might get a good approximation. The thicker the plate, the more likely you'll get a good result. There is no guarantee that a 1/4" plate will work perfectly but it will be a lot better than a cookie sheet, and in our tests, better than a pizza stone. A 1/2" to 3/4" thick steel plate, or a 3/4" or thicker aluminum sheet will, all things being equal, be better than a thinner plate, but if your oven is weak no amount of metal plate thickness will save you.

As several people noted (and is noted in the book), this technique was developed by Chris Young for Heston Blumenthal and the BBC perfection series. As such it has been around for a while.

Kenji Alt-Lopez has a somewhat similar approach. He uses a broiler to cook the top of the pizza, and puts it in a steel skillet to cook the bottom of the crust. In that case he is substituting the oven burner and skillet to heat the bottom with the pizza stone. This approach will also work, but you need to have a BIG burner with a lot of BTUs and a big skillet.

I hope this clears the issue up.

Edited February 26, 2011 by nathanm (log)

[Guy MovingOn]

The Heston Blumenthal recipe involves heating a heavy cast iron pan on the highest hob setting for at least 30mins and then placing it inverted under the highest grill/broiler setting before sliding on the pizza.

Is the metal sheet significantly hotter than this method?

[scott123]

Note that the instructions in the book does NOT say that the plate is at 550F. It says to put the oven at it "hottest setting", which for most ovens is 550F, for "at least" 1/2 hour. Then put the broiler on and get the plate even hotter. Then cook the pizza.

The actual tempertaure of the plate could potentially be much hotter than 550F, because the broiler is typically not regulated by air tempreature. The broiler element is typically at least 1000F. The plate does NOT come into equilibrium with it, but it can get hotter than 550F.

Nathan, have you used many home ovens? Unregulated broilers? 99.9% of home ovens have a thermostat probe, that, when the oven hits the temperature on the dial, the thermostat cuts the burners off. Both burners. Do you not see the potential safety issues of having a broiler that doesn't turn off? You can crank the broiler to your heart's content, but that probe is going to be in the exact same vicinity as the plate. You might be able to get the broiler to stay on for a few seconds and drive the surface temp of the plate up a bit past the peak dial temp, but the impact will be trivial, and, more importantly, it might prevent the broiler from kicking in while the pizza is being baked- and that will prevent proper browning on top of the pizza.

Peak oven temp is peak oven temp- regardless of whether or not it's reached with the top burner or the bottom, and for most home oven owners, that peak is less than 550. I'm fixating on 550 because that's typically the highest temperature home oven dials go to. In reality, a good portion of home oven temps peak out at well below that. Cook's Illustrated recent article "Thin-Crust Pizza" (January 1, 2011) operates under the assumption that most home ovens don't go above 500.

Nowhere do we say that this is 100% the same as a genuine "Neapolitan pizza".

So, you're telling me that it doesn't say this?

What Modernist Cuisine says is "you can cook a pizza that's as fast and good as any you'll find in Naples."

I don't see how anyone reading this statement could interpret it as anything other than a guarantee of Neapolitan baking times and Neapolitan quality results. It doesn't say "you can cook a pizza that's better than a pizza cooked with a pizza stone," or "you can, with a freak home oven utilizing an unregulated broiler, cook a pizza that's as fast and good as any you'll find in Naples." If you're going to guarantee Neapolitan bake times and quality, you have to have some semblance of what makes Neapolitan pizza great, namely, oven spring (and the associated char that comes with it), and if your method can't reproduce that for the majority of your readers, you shouldn't be promising that it will.

As several people noted (and is noted in the book), this technique was developed by Chris Young for Heston Blumenthal and the BBC perfection series. As such it has been around for a while.

...and, had your researchers done their homework, they'd be aware that Heston's technique has been thoroughly proven to produce inconsistent and mediocre pizza for just as long. If you read the Kenji Alt-Lopez article you posted, you'll see that he completely dismisses the Blumenthal approach. In the pizza community, Blumenthal's method is ridiculed.

If Heston wanted to refine his technique and publish it, I'd have nothing to say. Heston doesn't really have enough clout to influence the public's perception of Neapolitan pizza. Same thing for Chris. But your name is attached to this and that carries weight. This volume has historical significance. Many people will read this sweeping claim about Neapolitan quality and bake times, purchase 1/4" steel plate, make mediocre pizza that looks just like the one in the picture and, because they read it in your book, falsely associate that pizza with Neapolitan style.

If someone came along with a $40 sous vide technique that produced results slightly better than boiling but promised their readers that it could match the best equipment on the market, how would you feel? By spreading the idea, inside or outside the book, that 1/4" steel can "cook a pizza that's as fast and good as any you'll find in Naples," that's what Chris, and, by extension, you, are doing with pizza.

[weinoo]

I don't see how anyone reading this statement could interpret it as anything other than a guarantee of Neapolitan baking times and Neapolitan quality results. It doesn't say "you can cook a pizza that's better than a pizza cooked with a pizza stone," or "you can, with a freak home oven utilizing an unregulated broiler, cook a pizza that's as fast and good as any you'll find in Naples." If you're going to guarantee Neapolitan bake times and quality, you have to have some semblance of what makes Neapolitan pizza great, namely, oven spring (and the associated char that comes with it), and if your method can't reproduce that for the majority of your readers, you shouldn't be promising that it will.

I'm wondering, scott123, if anyone in Naples bakes pizza at home? And if any of it is any good? And if you would agree that, if it's baked at home, in Naples, it is Neapolitan pizza?

We understand that you're a purist - that's great. But for most of us, this technique will work just fine, thank you.

[dcarch]

Scott123, "---Nathan, have you used many home ovens? Unregulated broilers? 99.9% of home ovens have a thermostat probe, that, when the oven hits the temperature on the dial, the thermostat cuts the burners off. Both burners. Do you not see the potential safety issues of having a broiler that doesn't turn off? You can crank the broiler to your heart's content, but that probe is going to be in the exact same vicinity as the plate. You might be able to get the broiler to stay on for a few seconds and drive the surface temp of the plate up a bit past the peak dial temp, but the impact will be trivial, and, more importantly, it might prevent the broiler from kicking in while the pizza is being baked- and that will prevent proper browning on top of the pizza. "

Get an IR remote thermometer and measure the bottom of the oven where the heat is generated by the burners, you will know what Nathan is talking about. The steel plate gets high heat by conduction.

Furthermore, the capillary thermostat probe only measures the average air temperature., It is incapable of measuring radiation temperature. You can get burnt (charred) in ice cold air in front of a vigorous bonfire.

dcarch

Edited February 26, 2011 by dcarch (log)

[scott123]

I'm wondering, scott123, if anyone in Naples bakes pizza at home? And if any of it is any good? And if you would agree that, if it's baked at home, in Naples, it is Neapolitan pizza?

We understand that you're a purist - that's great. But for most of us, this technique will work just fine, thank you.

Come on, Mitch, this isn't Chowhound I thought this is the home of the culinary purist. Am I wrong in that assessment? Nathan is certainly a sous vide purist. All I'm asking is the same respect for Neapolitan pizza and what it represents.

[weinoo]

I'm wondering, scott123, if anyone in Naples bakes pizza at home? And if any of it is any good? And if you would agree that, if it's baked at home, in Naples, it is Neapolitan pizza?

We understand that you're a purist - that's great. But for most of us, this technique will work just fine, thank you.

Come on, Mitch, this isn't Chowhound I thought this is the home of the culinary purist. Am I wrong in that assessment? Nathan is certainly a sous vide purist. All I'm asking is the same respect for Neapolitan pizza and what it represents.

Trust me; Neapolitan pizza gets plenty of respect here.

But that's not to say it's always the greatest pizza - it is, after all, in the eye of the beholder. I've had less than great pies at Motorino, Keste, and yes, UPN over the years.

And as far as purists go, I guess that depends on one's definition of a culinary purist .

[qrn]

With my oven set at 550deg, and the 1/4" plate on the bottom rack,its 1/1/2"above the heating element. in the 30 minutes it takes to get the element to heat and to cycle off at 550,at that time,I check the temp of the plate and its at730deg.using an infra red thermometer, Plenty hot, to get the crust a nice brown crunchy finish in very short order..

Bud

[dcarch]

With my oven set at 550deg, and the 1/4" plate on the bottom rack,its 1/1/2"above the heating element. in the 30 minutes it takes to get the element to heat and to cycle off at 550,at that time,I check the temp of the plate and its at730deg.using an infra red thermometer, Plenty hot, to get the crust a nice brown crunchy finish in very short order..

Bud

Thanks for the confirmation.

Exactly what I (and others) was indicating to Scott123. The oven thermostat only measures average air temperature. The steel temperature can get even higher if you place the steel plate right on the bottom.

Here is going to be the big difference between stone and steel in the making of the pizza:

Immediately after you place the pizza dough on the steel, the temperature of the steel will not drop down very much becuase the higher heat capacity and conductivity of the metal.

On the stone, soon after the pizza dough in put on the stone, immediately the stone will be cooled down significantly because the much poorer conductivity of the stone.

Which one will make a better tasting pizza? Depends.

dcarch

[qrn]

I agree, the mass and conductivity of the steel,Even at the same temps, is much much greater than the stone,I only use stones for bread.

Bud

[dcarch]

One of the mean reasons for the stone is its permeability to permit a crispier crust.

The other reason is because it is not a particularly good conductor of heat, it allows time for the bread to be cooked before the outside gets burned.

dcarch

[Blether]

...

But on a volume basis, steel holds 1.5x that of aluminum, so a 1/2" steel plate has the same thermal mass as a 3/4" aluminum plate. A 1/4" steel plate is equivalent to a .375" thick Al plate.

Yes, and as any cookware designer will tell you, Al is far more conductive than steel, in the typical stovetop copper-aluminium-anything-else descending scale. And still the horse won't move...

[Blether]

Oops, I posted from the bottom of page 1.

One of the mean reasons for the stone is its permeability to permit a crispier crust.

The other reason is because it is not a particularly good conductor of heat, it allows time for the bread to be cooked before the outside gets burned.

dcarch

Yes, thanks for introducing more sense to the discussion, dcarch. I've always supposed one purpose of baking pizzas on stone is so that as a whole, the pie cooks through proportionally more from above, so that the topping cooks properly.

A few more comments:

It strikes me that, if your aim is to have a hot oven with a very hot heatsink (chunk of stone/al/steel) in it, heating the heatsink in the oven is a peculiar way to do it - heat the sheet of metal over a stove burner and it'll be hotter than the oven'll ever get it, in 5 minutes. You might even get it up to dull red, if you're fixated on a hottest-possible-base for your pizza.

I'm bemused too, by a fixation on a 2-minute cook time - won't a pizza cooked from below at, say, 900F, and above at 500, be likely to differ as much from one done from above at 900F with a stone at 500F, as it will from one cooked at 500F/500F for, say, 5 minutes ? The proof of the pudding will only ever be in the eating, DOP-schmeeOP.

The top of the pictured pizza in your post, Dave the Cook, looks over-done to my taste. Personally, I'd be looking at turning the broiler down (I'm aware you're posting the picture rather than advocating for any point of view).

Wholemeal Crank, you said 'stones store heat and thus the oven temp doesn't drop as much when you open the door to put the pizza in' - that's often said, but I reckon for a typical domestic oven, the air temperature will drop about the same amount regardless - you open that big, full-front door and the hot air flows out upwards in very short order. Strictly speaking, the stone means less stored heat energy escapes, right ?

[Wholemeal Crank]

Yes, exactly: the air temp in the oven still drops when you open the door, but when you close it again, the stones are still plenty hot to start the baking from below, and help the air return to temp faster too with the stored heat.

Just for kicks, and because it was a heck of a cold day today, this morning I preheated my oven with in as usual to 550 (the hottest setting). When the oven beeped 'preheat done', the bricks were about 200 degrees, and the oven floor was about 550 with the infrared temp gun. I let them sit in there another 30 minutes, and they hit about 500-530 degrees (sorry, didn't take notes). Then I put on the broiler ('Vari-broiler' to high setting), and waited another 12 minutes, and they got a little hotter--about 620 degrees for the top one and 570 or so for the bottom one. At that point, the experiment had to be called off due to near asphyxiation of the experimentalist--had to open lots of windows and put the fan on high and had long since taken down the smoke detector.

The result of the experiment seems to be that my oven can heat my bricks above 550 with the broiler, after the burner gets them going, but the design of my oven controls doesn't let me put both on at once. And that was without putting the bricks on the bottom above the burner, which I didn't do because I was lazy. I can probably get them quite a bit hotter with the bricks on the bottom of the oven, but dare not try that until the weather is warmer so I don't end up freezing me & mine again with the necessary opening of windows.

Edited February 27, 2011 by Wholemeal Crank (log)

[dcarch]

Air temperature in an oven is obviously important becuase it cooks by conduction (as in a convection oven).

I think the discussions so far have under-estimated the effects of radiant heat inside an oven.

You can have ice cold air inside an oven, and still burn your food if you have a source of high radiant heat. Think an open-top toaster.

A stone oven has stone surfaces all around at very hot temperature, and that gives a different quality of cooking of food.

The other factor is the environment of an enclosed home oven, moisture is trapped inside, v.s. an ventilated open hearth stone oven.

Again, which one will make a tastier pizza is completely subjective.

dcarch

[weinoo]

Tonight's almost authentic, almost Neapolitan pie. With mozzarella and Salvatore's smoked ricotta.

[roygon]

That's a great result. Would you mind sharing the details on the metal sheet and cook times. Also, temperature of metal sheet if you happen to have an IR thermometer

rg

[weinoo]

Actually, that pie was cooked on my new 1" thick kiln shelf, placed about 5" below the broiler. Heated first with my oven on as hot as I can get it (550F) for an hour; then the broiler turned on for as long as it would stay on. The stone achieved a temp of around 650F and that pie baked in about 3 1/2 minutes.

But...looks can be deceiving. To me, it was not as good, taste or texture-wise, as a recent pie baked for 6 minutes on a "pizza stone" at the bottom of the oven, preheated to 550 F.

[jaymer]

dang, scott just can't let it go.

dang.

waste of 10+ minutes of my life.

just cook and darn pizza when the book comes out and you either like it or not.

now, the upskirt google search opened up a whole new world to me... and i'm off to waste a bit more than 10 minutes i fear.

jaymer...

PS _ and jeff verasano even talked about setting his oven on self-cleaning mode to crank her up super hot.

Edited March 1, 2011 by jaymer (log)

[dcarch]

I made naan and pizza using the follow method:

1. First I set the oven to maximum temperature.

2. Then I put a heavy thick cast iron frying pan on the stove to heat it up to red hot.

3. Place the shaped dough on the hot cast iron pan and immediately place the pan with the dough into the oven.

4. In about a minute or two, the naan or pizza is done.

5. Do the next one.

dcarch

[weinoo]

Your naan looks good. Is the cast iron pan inverted or heated right-side up?

That's pizza?

[dcarch]

Your naan looks good. Is the cast iron pan inverted or heated right-side up?

That's pizza?

I used the right side of a 12" cast iron pan.

The "Pizza" was just a test of tomato suace, M. cheese and dough with that method. I didn't have basil and other stuff.

dcarch

[weinoo]

The "Pizza" was just a test...

Whew. We wouldn't want certain members to go all apoplectic, so that's good...

[roygon]

Your naan looks good. Is the cast iron pan inverted or heated right-side up?

That's pizza?

I used the right side of a 12" cast iron pan.

The "Pizza" was just a test of tomato suace, M. cheese and dough with that method. I didn't have basil and other stuff.

dcarch

Hey dcarch, you didn't mention how well the naan turned out. On a scale from the worst to the best naan you have made, where does this rank? Specifically I'm looking for comments on the Naan, not the naan-pizza

thanks,

rg

rg