Turkey Brining

[JAZ]

Why mess with something so wonderfully scrumptious as poultry meat? Why improve upon perfection?

I don't know where you get your turkey, but "wonderfully scrumptious" is not a term I'd apply to most of the turkey I've eaten in my life. Most supermarket turkeys (which is probably where most people in the country buy theirs) are pretty flavorless, and since many people tend to overcook them, they're dry too.

Now, overbrining can cause problems, true. I've overbrined shrimp, chicken thighs and pork chops, and in all cases the texture suffered. But it's awfully hard to overbrine a whole turkey.

I have two theories about the current popularity of brining

. . .

2. Celebrity chefs endorse it wholeheartedly since their taste buds are impaired from smoking and thus crave extra salt.

That seems like a bit of an overgeneralization.

I'm with Russ on the sugar, incidentally. I don't use it.

[MArkF]

I guess I am the only one who doesnt brine. I am attentive to check for doneness and have never had a complaint about "too dry".

I am not convinced that brining causes enough moisture to be abosrbed into the bird to really make such a difference...

I also do not like the added salt and suger...these are things I don't need.

Mark

[M. Lucia]

Empire Kosher Turkey: No brining required, because it already is.

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ditto

Brining is absolutely worth it for moist turkey, but I prefer to have someone else do it for me. For those who have expressed scepticism about brining in previous posts, it is a great way to try the taste without doing the whole process yourself.

The first year we ordered a kosher turkey I have memories of getting out the pliers to pull out those quills.

[Really Nice!]

For the liquid I use a mixture of 75 percent water, 25 percent whole milk for all poultry and fowl. The milk adds an extra dimension to the flavor.

Milk??

What type of flavor>

woodburner

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It adds a certain amount of creaminess to the mositure inside the meat. I first read about this in The Foods of France by Waverly Root. Somewhere around page 211 (book isn't with me at the moment... shhhh... I'm at work!) he talks about the chicken from Bresse and how they are the finest in France. If I recall correctly, they feed the birds milk pellets in their final weeks to add a certain "quality" to them. This along with the genetic makup of this specific breed including flavor and color (red head, white body, blue feet = colors of the French flag) make the Bresse chicken the most prized chicken in all of France.

After reading that passage I decided to brine a bird in milk. We were overwhelmed at this significant improvement in flavor. Since then I've done a little testing and have found that adding more than 25 percent milk is a waste of milk. We can't tell the difference between a bird brined in 100 percent milk or 25 percent; but we can tell the difference between 100 percent water and 75 percent water/25 percent milk (all other things being equal).

[russ parsons]

Empire Kosher Turkey: No brining required, because it already is.

just to be clear: is turkey koshering done differently than chicken koshering? because chicken koshering involves rubbing the bird in dry salt (basically, to remove excess blood, etc), rather than soaking it in a brine. the results are very different.

as for empire kosher, we had really bad experiences with their chickens in southern california when they were sold through trader joe (i say we non-editorially, as when i took an absolutely rotten one back to the store, they said they'd been getting a lot of returns for that reason; shortly thereafter they stopped carrying them). i was very disappointed because i'd always heard great things about their chicken.

[Gifted Gourmet]

Hate to tell you this, russ parsons, you ain't exactly alone with the Empire kosher bird problems .. it has happened to me and I find it particularly sad because they are charging top dollar for their product .. which only serves to heighten the disappointment and subsequent anger ...

Here is the process of kashering and defeathering the birds:

Processing kosher chickens is a food science. In some plants chickens are first soaked in ice water to toughen the skin and give the chicken longer shelf life. No hot water is ever used for processing before salting; it would render the chickens treif. The chickens pass through the plucking machine where the rubber finger-like beaters de-feather the chicken.

(treif is a term which means the bird is not kosher for some reason)

a little clearer explanation:

The meat is then soaked in a bath in room temperature water for a half hour.  The soaked meat is then placed on special salting tables where it is salted with coarse salt on both sides for one hour.  The salt draws out the blood.  These tables are designed to allow the blood to drain off properly.  After the meat has been salted for an hour it is then well rinsed three times.  Now the meat is ready for Kosher use.

[bleachboy]

I pretty much always brine poultry. Year-before-last I was on turkey duty and brined it with salt and virtually every sugar product I could rummage (maple syrup, molasses, brown sugar, karo syrup, etc). However, I have twice now heard Russ Parsons assert that the sugar doesn't do a damn thing. Given that at least half my family is diabetic, I think I'm gonna follow his advice and do a salt-only brine this year.

Frankly, I'm not sure how much a difference anything makes either way, since we deep fry every year. But I'm the only briner in the family, and everybody always compliments my turkey. Of course, I guess you're kind of required to compliment the turkey.

I usually brine mine in a cooler on the back porch overnight, taking it out a few hours before we're gonna deep fry it and let it dry out so it doesn't turn into a boiling oil grenade when we give it the dunk.

[woodburner]

I usually brine mine in a cooler on the back porch overnight, taking it out a few hours before we're gonna deep fry it and let it dry out so it doesn't turn into a boiling oil grenade when we give it the dunk.

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I've found the 5 gallon Igloo Beverage cooler (the kind with the spigot on the bottom) work wonderful for Turkey's and Chicken brining.

woodburner

[Hest88]

I've brined for the last 7 years or so and my Chinese relatives, who can't understand the appeal of turkey, have found the brined versions much more palatable--both in flavor and moistness. I don't bother with Kosher salt anymore and just use cheap table salt; so far I haven't noticed a difference. I also think I'm going to forgo any spices in the brine, since it never seems to make a difference and I'm too lazy to boil the brine and cool it before plunking the turkey in.

[scott123]

Brining for me is one step towards deli turkey breast. Any steps towards deli turkey breast are a very bad thing.

Salt denatures protein. In other words, you're starting to cook the bird before it reaches the oven.

with all due respect, i would love to see this assertion backed up. i'm not aware of any evidence for it. even more, i'm not aware that there is any tenderness added by brining that could not be attributed to increased moisture (as opposed to, say, adding papaya enzyme or something foul like that).

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Here are two relevant quotes from an article on brining by Joe O'Connell, past president of the California Barbecue Association:

However, when a protein is cooked (by heat, acid or drying -- this is very important, since drying, as by sodium, "cooks" protein), the protein bonds break down, and the protein bundles straighten out. This is called denaturing. When proteins are denatured, they can bond together with other molecules, like water and other denatured proteins. This is called coagulation.

As the free water molecules leave the meat cells, there is an increase in the sodium concentration inside the cells. The concentration increases because of the loss of water, not because of a gain of sodium. As the concentration of sodium increases, the sodium "cooks" the intracellular proteins, denaturing them.

Brining denatures (cooks) meat. That's a fact. Whether or not this 'cooking' makes the meat tough is up for debate. My experience has shown it to be true.

[russ parsons]

Here are two relevant quotes from an article on brining by Joe O'Connell, past president of the California Barbecue Association:

However, when a protein is cooked (by heat, acid or drying -- this is very important, since drying, as by sodium, "cooks" protein), the protein bonds break down, and the protein bundles straighten out. This is called denaturing. When proteins are denatured, they can bond together with other molecules, like water and other denatured proteins. This is called coagulation.

As the free water molecules leave the meat cells, there is an increase in the sodium concentration inside the cells. The concentration increases because of the loss of water, not because of a gain of sodium. As the concentration of sodium increases, the sodium "cooks" the intracellular proteins, denaturing them.

Brining denatures (cooks) meat. That's a fact. Whether or not this 'cooking' makes the meat tough is up for debate. My experience has shown it to be true.

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[scott123]

Here are two relevant quotes from an article on brining by Joe O'Connell, past president of the California Barbecue Association:

However, when a protein is cooked (by heat, acid or drying -- this is very important, since drying, as by sodium, "cooks" protein), the protein bonds break down, and the protein bundles straighten out. This is called denaturing. When proteins are denatured, they can bond together with other molecules, like water and other denatured proteins. This is called coagulation.

As the free water molecules leave the meat cells, there is an increase in the sodium concentration inside the cells. The concentration increases because of the loss of water, not because of a gain of sodium. As the concentration of sodium increases, the sodium "cooks" the intracellular proteins, denaturing them.

Brining denatures (cooks) meat. That's a fact. Whether or not this 'cooking' makes the meat tough is up for debate. My experience has shown it to be true.

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there is a saying among toxicologists: "the dose makes the poison". what is true in an extreme case is not necessarily true uniformly. In this case, that's the difference between salting meat (as in making jerky) and brining it ... a much lower concentration of sodium.

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I believe the environmentalists have a saying as well "dilution is not the solution to pollution" :) Yes, the 'cooking' that's going on is fairly neglible, but I can still detect it. That same translucency that you get with deli turkey breast shows up in even very lightly brined birds. Same thing with fresh ham/deli ham. Translucency. I prefer my meat opaque.

Edited November 6, 2004 by scott123 (log)

[woodburner]

For the liquid I use a mixture of 75 percent water, 25 percent whole milk for all poultry and fowl. The milk adds an extra dimension to the flavor.

Milk??

What type of flavor>

woodburner

←

It adds a certain amount of creaminess to the mositure inside the meat. I first read about this in The Foods of France by Waverly Root. Somewhere around page 211 (book isn't with me at the moment... shhhh... I'm at work!) he talks about the chicken from Bresse and how they are the finest in France. If I recall correctly, they feed the birds milk pellets in their final weeks to add a certain "quality" to them. This along with the genetic makup of this specific breed including flavor and color (red head, white body, blue feet = colors of the French flag) make the Bresse chicken the most prized chicken in all of France.

After reading that passage I decided to brine a bird in milk. We were overwhelmed at this significant improvement in flavor. Since then I've done a little testing and have found that adding more than 25 percent milk is a waste of milk. We can't tell the difference between a bird brined in 100 percent milk or 25 percent; but we can tell the difference between 100 percent water and 75 percent water/25 percent milk (all other things being equal).

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Thanks.

I will surely give this method a chance on a few chickies.

woodburner

[woodburner]

As the free water molecules leave the meat cells, there is an increase in the sodium concentration inside the cells. The concentration increases because of the loss of water, not because of a gain of sodium. As the concentration of sodium increases, the sodium "cooks" the intracellular proteins, denaturing them.

Brining denatures (cooks) meat. That's a fact. Whether or not this 'cooking' makes the meat tough is up for debate. My experience has shown it to be true.

←

[scott123]

As the free water molecules leave the meat cells, there is an increase in the sodium concentration inside the cells. The concentration increases because of the loss of water, not because of a gain of sodium. As the concentration of sodium increases, the sodium "cooks" the intracellular proteins, denaturing them.

Brining denatures (cooks) meat. That's a fact. Whether or not this 'cooking' makes the meat tough is up for debate. My experience has shown it to be true.

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Mr. Harold Mcgee will be in the egullet spotlight next week. I suggest posing this question to him, surely he has some excellent insight.

I however respectively disagree with the statement that brining "cooks" the meat, but not a scientist am I.

woodburner

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[Abra]

I always brine turkey, and have done so for 5-6 years. If you want herb flavor to infuse your brine, heat the salt in enough water (or apple juice, or whatever your brining liquid) with your herbs until the salt is dissolved. Let cool and dilute appropriately. I find that a plain salt brine is very good (1 cup kosher salt to 7 quarts of water) and an herb brine is better, and adding herbs and some sweetener is best. I like to use apple cider as a part of the liquid, but I've also added maple syrup or brown sugar.

Like Really Nice I let the bird air dry for a day in the fridge, after 24 hours of brining. I've never dreamed of using milk in the brine, though, and now I'm super-curious about it.

[EliseMF]

Empire Kosher Turkey: No brining required, because it already is.

The Empire bird is the gold standard around this house during Turkey day.

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actually--- I brine kosher turkeys too-even though most sources discourage it. I think it removes some of that funky flavor you sometimes get. I use about 2/3 of the salt called for in a brine recipe, and use dark brown sugar or molasses for the rest. I only brine for about 3-4 hours maximum, and I always cook 2 10 or 11 pound birds, never larger.

[russ parsons]

once again we tried a couple of different brines in the test kitchen. i really wish that those of you who add sugar to your turkey brine would just once try it without. it makes such a difference.

[tanabutler]

I am solidly in the NO BRINE category. I did it once, UGH.

1. A post from eG:

If you can follow a recipe, I've made Roast Turkey with Herb Rub and Shiitake Gravy for ten years now. I'd never made a turkey in my life before, and this recipe just knocks it out of the park. Definitely get a meat thermometer.

I make the spice blend in my coffee grinder (I don't do coffee), and keep some on hand for roasting chickens year-round.

I promise you a spectacular bird if you make it. 83 rave reviews, 97% would make it again, and many of those who reviewed say, as I do, I'll never do turkey any other way.

I am in 100% agreement with Harold McGee on brining: I hate it. You lose the underlying sweetness of the turkey meat. If the only excuse to brine is so the bird's not dried out, that's a bad reason, in my book. I've never had a tough/dried turkey, and the year I brined, I just thought it ruined the recipe.

Do your "mise en place," and be ready to bask in utter adulation when you serve this turkey. Can you handle it? smile.gif

Good luck!

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2. A post I made on another food board:

I just saw Harold McGee at an appearance at a local bookstore. Someone asked him about brining, and he asked for a show of hands of those who'd done so and liked the results. Nearly every hand in the packed room shot up. Then he asked for a show of hands of those who'd tried it and did not like the results. I saw only two hands straight in the air: his and mine.

He then spent ten minutes explaining why brining is not good, the gist of which is that the salt water leaches actual flavors out of the meat, replacing it with salt and water. It's not a juicy bird you're getting, it's a wet one. (He posited that one of the reasons people brine is because they're using inferior meat, but that certainly isn't the case for most of the foodies I know.)

He also said there are essential difficulties in roasting turkey, as the breast and legs want to cook at different rates, so he resigns himself to dried-out breasts that were "made for mayonnaise." He also mentions something is true but which I've never seen addressed anywhere: the drippings in the pan are pretty much useless for gravy, as they're far too salty.

I brined one year (following the recipe from the SF Chronicle, which my circle all used and swore was the Second Coming) and hated it. I've never had a dried out bird: for every year since 1994, I've made the recipe for Roast Turkey with Herb Rub and Shiitake Gravy from Bon Appétit.

If you've never brined, and feel like you're missing something, go ahead and give it a try. But when people talk about it in worshipful tones, I've never gotten it. It replaces the sweetness of the turkey flesh (which contrasts perfectly with the savory, crispy skin) with salty meat.

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Me no brine no mo.

[russ parsons]

boy, you're not talking about my brine, tana. but i do know what you mean. i tested a recipe fairly recently from a Famous Chef, who used a ratio of 1 cup salt, 1 cup sugar per gallon of water. i really didn't like the result and if i'd only used that one, i might never brine again. but do try the 2/3 cup salt, no sugar approach. it does have full turkey flavor and is only seasoned, not salted.

[wkl]

1. A post from eG:

If you can follow a recipe, I've made Roast Turkey with Herb Rub and Shiitake Gravy for ten years now. I'd never made a turkey in my life before, and this recipe just knocks it out of the park. Definitely get a meat thermometer.

I make the spice blend in my coffee grinder (I don't do coffee), and keep some on hand for roasting chickens year-round.

I promise you a spectacular bird if you make it. 83 rave reviews, 97% would make it again, and many of those who reviewed say, as I do, I'll never do turkey any other way.

Good luck!

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Me no brine no mo.

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This recipie looks good!

Do you roast until the thigh meet is 180 degrees?I'm wondering if the breast meat would be dried out at this point?

Thanks.

[wannabechef]

Ok, here's a question. Whats the preferred method for best possible turkey:

a) Buy a non-kosher turkey and brine yourself

b) Buy a kosher turkey and don't brine at all

c) Buy a kosher turkey and brine (with some possible modifications)

Is the brining process for koshering the same exact procedure thats recomended for self-brining?

Starting last year I heard all the hubub about brining round here and was excited to try myself this year. But then I hear that the kosher turkey are already brined. We've been using kosher turkeys forever and I never found them to be anything spectacular in comparison with non kosher.

Anyway, my family is somewhat kosher so I'm stuck with using a kosher turkey no matter what. I guess I want to know if its worth brining it anyway it some form and how that will improve it.

[BrentKulman]

I've never had a dried out bird: for every year since 1994, I've made the recipe for Roast Turkey with Herb Rub and Shiitake Gravy from Bon Appétit.

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I have made that recipe before and it's definitely a keeper.

[tanabutler]

Ok, here's a question. Whats the preferred method for best possible turkey:

a) Buy a non-kosher turkey and brine yourself

b) Buy a kosher turkey and don't brine at all

c) Buy a kosher turkey and brine (with some possible modifications)

Is the brining process for koshering the same exact procedure thats recomended for self-brining?

Starting last year I heard all the hubub about brining round here and was excited to try myself this year. But then I hear that the kosher turkey are already brined. We've been using kosher turkeys forever and I never found them to be anything spectacular in comparison with non kosher.

Anyway, my family is somewhat kosher so I'm stuck with using a kosher turkey no matter what. I guess I want to know if its worth brining it anyway it some form and how that will improve it.

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Option D =the only option for me: buy a non-kosher turkey and don't brine at all! Turkey should have a distinct contrast between the savory/salty/herby skin and the sweeter meat inside. I tried one of those "best-tasting chicken in New York" kosher chickens from Trader Joe's and it was awful. What is the love affair with too much salt? Gak.

(Hey, Brent, yes, it's a keeper!)

[Gifted Gourmet]

Actually, for those of us who must use a kosher turkey (and your experience may well be atypical on that particular bird), I do not brine and find that there is enough salt 'residue' in the TT (turkey tissues) to provide a succulent repast ...