How much for a 27 course Menu?

[Adam Chef]

I am going to be opening a restaurant in Manhattan next Year and I am currently trying to figure out prices for dinner in America in general............

I will be opening a "Sensory Dining" restaurant where I want to be serving mostly tasting menus which are made up of 27 courses. This starts from 8 family style snacks which get taken with your hands, 9 plated starters which are about 2-3 bites each, 4 slightly larger plates, 1 fish and 1 Meat, 1 pre dessert then finally 3 desserts. This menu will be evolving on a weekly basis and our guests will even get the chance to dine in my Lab which doubles as a private dining during the dinner service. There will also be added options of 3 different beverage pairings; Champagne, beer and Sake; Wines; Progressive cocktails and tea.

One of the more unique things for NYC will be the fact that I will not be turning tables, so when you book a table it is yours to stay and enjoy all night.

Here in Spain this format of menu is available in many places and I am aware of the market prices, but for NY I am totally lost :-(

If you could be so kind to let me know your thoughts and opinions I would be very grateful.

[David A. Goldfarb]

At the high end, there's Per Se, which is around $275 per person with options that can increase that. At the less high end, some places that offer elaborate tasting menus are WD-50 and Le Bernardin, which are around $140 per person without wine pairings. The tasting menu at Craft is $110, but doesn't include as many separate courses. They all have menus on their websites, so you can get a better idea of what each tasting menu entails, figuring there will typically be a couple of small items that aren't mentioned on the menu.

[robert40]

I mean no disrespect but honestly assume there are readers curious as to why you would seek menu pricing suggestions here? Manhattan may very well be one of the most competitive restaurant markets in the world. A well thought out business plan is essential to success and even with that many of the very best have failed. There is nothing wrong with seeking a general opinion, but your question hints somewhat in being a bit unprepared as to the task ahead of you.

Certainly wishing you the very best of luck!

Edited November 23, 2009 by robert40 (log)

[Adam Chef]

Thanks for your detailed comments David,

Wylie is actually a friend of mine and his format is somewhat similar, but the problem is his place is Lower East side and mine is Midtown. This is why I was curious to hear the thoughts of the people.

Dear Robert,

You are right, I would of been thinking exactly the same thing if I had of re-read my post before I published it.

This is a very big project which has been planned for the past 2 years (but has also been a dream for the past 10 years) and I have done all the studies and background work possible. This topic was to merely feel what the people think from a consumer point of view, but more than that from an educated food consumer which is what eGullet is totally made up of. So I thought who better than to bounce the idea off!

It is a $10 million project and I want to make sure I have totally crossed all the T's and dotted all the I's, as you are right when you say NY is one of the toughest places in the world.

The menus are being priced at $125 without beverages, Then there are 3 different prices for the 3 different beverage packages. I am pricing it lower than the market price as I want people to be able to afford to come as often as they want, the menu will be evolving on a weekly basis and as such the experience will be totally different every time. Plus I want people to feel relaxed when enjoying dinner without worrying about the bill after :-)

[Shalmanese]

Ah, it wasn't clear that you already had the pricing. From the OP, it seemed like you wanted us to come up with a price for you which is crazy.

$125 strikes me as a completely fair price and maybe a little on the bargain end. I would say $180 would be the highest it would be reasonable to go, $140 is about the mid range and $110 is the low end.

[David A. Goldfarb]

$125 is quite reasonable, particularly for a new place.

[tomdarch]

Wow - US$125 does sound pretty reasonable - depending, of course, on what the wine paring is priced at. I don't know how this compares to similar dining options in NY currently, but don't forget that sometimes a higher price can attract more customers and that an excellent product at a low price will be perceived to be lower quality than it really is.

On that note - I'm sure you're aware of it, but I'll say it anyway: A lot (possibly a majority?) of your customers won't care or be able to really understand/enjoy the food you serve them. They go to restaurants not because of the food but as a way to show off, to see and be seen. If you were opening in Chicago, what you put on the plate would be the primary determinant of success, but in NY and LA diners select restaurants based on "other factors."

I am not saying that you shouldn't serve the best food you can. Rather, be mindful that the "ancillary" issues will probably make more of a difference to your business success - particularly in NY - media buzz.

[KennethT]

First - I'd like to say that I am very excited to hear plans to have an "El Bulli"esque restaurant in NYC. I've been wishing for this for a long time!

With that said, I think the reason this type of restaurant hasn't been done in NY yet is because it would be too difficult to not lose your shirt without having to charge a fortune. NY is a very odd market - I've lived here all my life and associate with many different types of people who go to these types of restaurants - all for different reasons.

I think the biggest problem in NYC restaurants is real estate prices - I'm sure your rent in midtown is going to be huge. If you're not planning on turning tables and will be seating in the European style, I think your prices should be dictated by how much the real estate costs (plus all the other overhead) divided by the number of seats. Alain Ducasse did something similar to this at ADNY. Per Se is slightly different - while they're not turning tables, it's not explicit that the table is yours for the evening - it's very possible that they could have someone in a table at 6:00, and then another party at 9 or 9:30.

Also, I find that most diners in NYC don't like the idea of spending an entire evening at the table in a restaurant. Don't get me wrong, this is something that I personally love, and travel to Europe for a few times a year... but most people in NY get antsy after 2 - 2.5 hours... While I'm sure there are plenty of people like me who'd love the experience you are presenting, I know a lot more who would be looking to leave halfway through.

Finally, as I'm sure you're aware, I think most NYC restaurants menu prices are too low, and are being subsidized by the wine sales. This is especially evident in a place like Daniel where you can see some bottles priced at 4-5x retail prices. To me, it borders on criminal extortion that a restaurant would sell a $30 bottle of Cote Chalonnaise for $150... or a $65 Chateauneuf du Pape for $260.... and that's not even talking about the markups on Grand Cru type stuff...

[Adam Chef]

$125 sounds like it is going to be a bargain!

I am able to do prices like this as what I do does not concentrate on the more expensive products, it is about taking any product and getting the best out of it through concentrating on highlighting it's strengths and overcoming any weaknesses.

But I am also going to use my bar to support a lot of the revenue, I am creating a 120PAX Progressive cocktail bar. Which as well will have some Progressive Tapas available, they will be traditional ideas using some strong new Techniques.

To keep the people on the tables we are going to do away with a bit of the formality of the restaurant as the night progresses. During the night in several stages the music tempo will be changed and so will the volume so we can basically guide the peoples moods. This is a concept I have been working on with several Sensory Science departments around the world. I will be encouraging bottle service at the tables when the meal is finished. So with these and other measures put in place I hope we can create this culture which is normal here in Europe.

To respond on the doesn't matter what kind of food point. My food is very intrusive and very interactive, the dinner really can't help but have a reaction as it is a personal cuisine with many points of humor. So I hope they will get it ;-)

To respond to the "Media Buzz", there is a major project in the pipeline to ensure the market impact will be huge, I am currently negotiating on creating a TV series.

Finally on the Beverage pricing.......... The packages will be priced to sell, as this is the Point, it will enhance the total experience so for the guest it will be an obvious up sell. The wines by the bottle will be priced according to market value.

Thank you very much for your comments!

[howsmatt]

First of all I wish you the best of luck. I think EG is a great place to get feedback no matter how much capital and other resources your business adventure requires.

For $125, someone like me would choose to dine 6 times a year at your place instead of 12 times at $50-60, provided of course you provide the experience I would hope for. I think $110 is too cheap and $175 without wine is too much. $175 with a few wines would be great. I do not like wine pairings that cost more than the meal itself, although I appreciate their necessity.

Let us know when everything comes together and I will certainly drive down to support you.

Chef Matt

[paulraphael]

Can you say a little more about the bar menu? Some of us have food lusts that excede our bank balances. Also, if you'll be looking for any slave labor, give me a holler.

[percyn]

If the menu items are similar to the dishes you have on your blog, $125 should be easy to get. However, how many tops will this restaurant seat?

Kenneth does have a point on the dining habits of people in the US (or NYC in particular), so you don't want the experience to extend too long.

Personally, I have spent over 5 hrs at Alinea (in Chicago) enjoying their 26 course tasting menu, which I think ran $450pp with the wine pairings, but prefer the menu options at Per Se which let me spend 2.5-4 hrs depending on the night.

Where in midtown are you planning to open? Perhaps you can post the restaurant creation process on eGullet and if you are in Midtown East, perhaps I can even swing by on a lunch break

[Adam Chef]

Hi Percyn,

The food is exactly the same as on my blog, it will be evolved in my lab on a daily basis.

The thing people don't seem to get outside of Spain is the importance of the rhythm of a meal and how important it is so you don't start to digest and get tired and full.

A 27 course menu should be eaten comfortably in 1 and a half hours and without leaving the guest feeling full before, after or during the meal. Lengthy testing is done to ensure this is always the case and also that every component of the menu goes harmoniously with no unintentional repetition of ingredients or techniques.

As for the restaurant process, I am still trying to lock down many details (it is a pretty torturous process). As soon as the ball gets rolling I will be writing about it on madridlab.net and also my new website (www.manhattanlab.com) which is under construction.

You will be welcome to come by anytime, The aim is to have an opon door policy on my creative lab for anyone who wants to learn or participate. I am currently negotiating on a TV series which will be filmed in my lab and will document the daily evolution of food.

Thanks for your response,

Kind Regards from Spain.