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KD1191

Rogue (now beta) Cocktails

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Kyle has worked at the Violet Hour since just after it opened, and he still does.

My point wasn't to ask where he works, but to say that the book should include that information. If I see a recipe by "Kyle Davidson" (or whoever) and that's all, then if I don't know who he is, that doesn't give me much information. But if I see that the creator of a drink worked at Violet Hour (or Pegu Club, or PDT, or Zig Zag, or Holeman & Finch) it'll tell me more -- it may give me a clue as to the style of the drink, if the place has a certain "style"; it will at least tell me that the creator of the drink comes from a serious cocktail venue.

Details like this make this book much less than it could be.

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it will at least tell me that the creator of the drink comes from a serious cocktail venue.

Details like this make this book much less than it could be.

Knowing about who came up with a recipe might help in making a split-second decision on whether to read the recipe or not, but the recipe rather speaks for itself. If someone who worked at a Red Lobster came up with the same recipe, wouldn't it be the same drink?

I don't disagree that the book could have been more informative about the history of a drink or a bartender. Maybe this was an oversight, or maybe that style of relating recipes is also one of the conventions they are challenging. As they say, it's just a drink.


Edited by KD1191 (log)

True rye and true bourbon wake delight like any great wine...dignify man as possessing a palate that responds to them and ennoble his soul as shimmering with the response.

DeVoto, The Hour

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Knowing about who came up with a recipe might help in making a split-second decision on whether to read the recipe or not, but the recipe rather speaks for itself.  If someone who worked at a Red Lobster came up with the same recipe, wouldn't it be the same drink?

In the pages I've seen, the recipes don't speak for themselves. Some of them, in fact, sound very unappealing. But if I see that they were developed by a bartender from a place I'm familiar with, I'm much more likely to believe that they're worth trying.

For instance, the "Broken Shoe Shiner" calls for Pernod, Aperol, Benedictine, pineapple juice and rose water, among other ingredients. That hardly speaks for itself; it actually sounds completely unappetizing to me. I don't know who the creator, Stephen Cole, is, but if I knew that he'd worked at (for instance) Pegu Club, I'd be likely to try it, because I trust the place and know that a disgusting drink is unlikely to make it on the menu there. (It doesn't mean I'd love the drink, but it guarantees a certain base level to me.) If on the other hand it came from Red Lobster, I'd give it a pass, because to my knowledge, Red Lobster doesn't produce bartenders with the kind of skill necessary to make a good drink from those ingredients.

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In the pages I've seen, the recipes don't speak for themselves. Some of them, in fact, sound very unappealing. But if I see that they were developed by a bartender from a place I'm familiar with, I'm much more likely to believe that they're worth trying.

Understood. I guess in that case it would be an issue of interpretation from context. If you trust the gatekeepers/authors of this compilation, or to a lesser extent the other contributors, or if you are intrigued by how such an apparently bizarre concoction could end up in a book of otherwise intriguing recipes, then perhaps you give it a whirl...if not, trust your instinct and avoid.

I know you are just using Stephen and the Broken Shoeshiner as an example to elucidate your larger point, but for any who might be interested Stephen is also of the Violet Hour in Chicago. From my conversations with him, he appears quite devoted to absinthe. The Broken Shoeshiner was featured on TVH's Summer and Fall menus in 2008. The first two Google hits for "Broken Shoeshiner" lead to positive reviews of the drink (from the same source), the third and fourth to Toby's own posts in the Violet Hour threads at the Chicago LTHForum and here on eGullet regarding new drinks for Summer '08.


Edited by KD1191 (log)

True rye and true bourbon wake delight like any great wine...dignify man as possessing a palate that responds to them and ennoble his soul as shimmering with the response.

DeVoto, The Hour

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I'd like to briefly dip my oar into these waters. I have a copy of this little book, I've read through it, and on the whole I'm impressed. It's made me think a little bit about complacency and creativity, and for that I thank them. Now that I'm comfortably midde-aged I would phrase things more diplomatically than they do, but in many respects I think their manifesto is spot-on.

There are too many drink books that repeat the same recipes and recycle the same factoids, even now.

There are too many cocktail bars that can muddle lemon verbena and watermelon in Lillet and top it off with house-made bitters (usually not bitter at all, N.B.) but would blink if you handed them a bottle of bonded applejack and asked them to make something butch with it.

There are too many pleasantly-flavored, utterly forgettable sours floating around the cocktailosphere. (I'll also add that there are far too many "challenging" drinks laced with heavy doses of Averna, Chartreuse, and their ilk--the buzz spirits of 2008-2009--that are only challenging in an Emperor's New Clothes sense; but here rogue rocktails is guilty of beholding the mote that is in its brother's eye but considering not the beam that is in its own.)

Finally, there are an awful lot of people taking the whole thing terribly, terribly seriously. When mixing drinks moves away from its bistro roots into fine-dining, a lot gets lost. These guys are conscious of that. As they say, "a bar exists to serve customers, not cocktails."

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aka David Wondrich

There are, according to recent statistics, 147 female bartenders in the United States. In the United Kingdom the barmaid is a feature of the wayside inn, and is a young woman of intelligence and rare sagacity. --The Syracuse Standard, 1895

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I have seen the book and as I mentioned, tried some of the cocktails, including the gunshop fizz and that drink in particular is awesome.  I think it is a bit of a loss leader as the pour cost is too high, but flavor and balance wise it is awesome.

I think that drink is revelatory. My only problem with it is that it is rather delicate (proof wise).

As far as it being a loss leader, I heard the same complaint from the person who made this for me, but I'd like some clarification on that point. Peychaud can be had (in bulk) for about $0.70/oz. That puts it at about $18 for a 750ml. I'm likely missing something else that goes into the equation of 'pour cost', as I'm very out of my element here, but I think that drink deserves to be evangelized, and wouldn't want the impression that it's too pricey to prevent someone from trying.

I guess Sanbitter is a pricey ingredient. However, I get the impression that it can be approximated with a few ingredients readily available behind most bars. But, perhaps I'm incorrect there, too.


True rye and true bourbon wake delight like any great wine...dignify man as possessing a palate that responds to them and ennoble his soul as shimmering with the response.

DeVoto, The Hour

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I first saw this book a few weeks ago when Troy returned from the St-Germain Can-Can in NYC. Kirk had called a few of us at Violet Hour and asked, very casually, if we had any unusual receipts involving often-overlooked ingredients that can usually be found behind many bars; i.e. no housemade bitters involving moonflower blossoms or bacon-washed gin. I dig what they're doing, wholeheartedly. Of course their philosophy raises controversy; but it also gets people thinking, to a certain extent.

I had the privilege of drinking at Cure a couple of times; both times surrounded by damn fine bartenders, spirits folks, writers, etc. Each time rounds of praise were brought forth. Their technique and style are wonderful; ask for an old-fashioned or sazerac or even a damn daiquiri and you'll be blown away. As someone who's made those drinks hundreds of times, and still loves them, I find myself often times craving something...different. Something more. Louder, faster, stronger, brighter...In the same way that I love good jazz, or classical music, but have a deep love and appreciation for metal, punk, and industrial.

Toby teaches us, among other things, the beauty of subtle complexity, the importance of integrity, and how wicked a liquid pun can be...without these attributes, you haven't even made it out of the starting gate. I know Kirk's learned this (see above) and now he's trying to drop a penny on the tracks, as it were, if only to get people to think.

The idea of using a jigger to measure non-potable bitters, combining spirits in unusual fashion, or inversion is not exactly new (Baker, Thomas et al. have such delights documented). At the moment, however, it is different. And as a bartender, I've already used this book myself behind the bar, when I have my regulars in and they want something...different.

I think overall what they're trying to fire up is the search for something new. Learn the tryptich, learn water content, learn balance, learn relationships...great. You can make a drink. Now push!

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I'm guessing it refers to the classic three ingredient cocktail. The word usage is a bit strange, however, since a triptych is a single work composed of three separate, not combined parts.


--

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Yes Mike_r is referring to my theory of a balanced cocktail. I began using it because I wanted people to think about each separate ingredient on it’s own but, when unified, it became greater than the sum of it’s parts. I was looking for a word that would go with the idea of gestalt. Trio didn’t work. Maybe I used triptych because it sounded like Mystic.

Toby


A DUSTY SHAKER LEADS TO A THIRSTY LIFE

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Troy and I were talking about the inclusion of many flavors, Kirks theory of pushing the envelope of intensity.

We have all had drinks that included everything and the kitchen sink. There is no center of the drink, it is all over the place. It tastes like everything therefore it tastes like nothing. Like adding all colors you get black.

So he was talking about Green Chartreuse. It is so deeply complex, yet you can add flavors to it and it holds it’s own. Or a Negroni is just piling complexity on top of complexity on top of complexity. But it still works.

So in this vein, And strangely before aforementioned conservation Josh Habiger and I came up with a cocktail using Zwack.

The Red Danube

2.0 oz Zwack

1.0 oz Punt e Mes

.50 oz Campari

3 big dash Regan’s Orange Bitters

Stir, Coupe, Lots of Orange Oil.

I think that this is a balanced cocktail. It is deeply complex and bitter. It is not for a cosmo drinker, but someone who drinks Aperol RX, or negronis it makes sense.

5 years ago I am not sure how big an audience a cocktail like this would have had. Today…It has a slightly bigger audience.

Toby


A DUSTY SHAKER LEADS TO A THIRSTY LIFE

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After having enjoyed an Art of Choke with some new mint from out back and using the new recipe -- less lime, 2:1 demerara, etc. -- I sat down to reread this topic. As I did, I kept thinking about these guys as some combination of David Embury and Andre Breton. I'll admit, I like the idea of people writing manifestos; I like the bravado, the "fuck y'all" youth of it. I guess, like Dave, I'm "comfortably midd[l]e-aged" and have an appreciation for those who aren't. In case you didn't notice, his comments about "complacency and creativity" are iceberg tips with sharp points.

My wife would also remind me that I also like self-indulgent, overweening flops. Blumenthal's salmon/licorice dish; Lou Reed's "Berlin"; Marinetti's textural meals; the entire Mekons catalogue; Embury's 8:2:1 sours: a lot of people hate(d) those things and were happy to let us know why. But I'm attracted to the brazenness of it all, the idea that someone's gonna drag me by the lapels into the back alley and let me have it in the name of art.

Feel free to blame it all on my overeducation -- or on some notion that people flailing around with weird new ideas is a good thing, even if you find the ideas idiotic or repugnant. Take this Broken Shoe Shiner:

  • 1 oz Aperol
    1 oz Pernod
    1 oz Benedictine
    1 oz lemon juice
    1 oz pineapple juice
    egg white

Dry shake; shake with ice; strain; top with nine rose water drops. (I used 14.)

As indicated above, on paper this looks like an avant garde car wreck. (Big fan of J. G. Ballard's Crash here.) But.

Note the lineage. It's a bittered sour: bitters, sweet, juice, with base lurking in strange places. Audrey Saunders's Intro to Aperol (Aperol with freakish other elements) and French Pearl (mint where it doesn't belong) are hanging about if only you look. That Pernod/pineapple combo is straight out of the tiki tradition; sub in Angostura for the rose water (a pretty nice idea, I'd bet, if you want something earthier) and Herbsaint for Pernod: you've got Don the Beachcomber's tiki sour base complete with "secret ingredient."

I just made the freakish thing, as if on a dare. Damned if it wasn't tasty. It may well be perfect. It's some crazy dance performance on Baltimore local TV in 1962: the rose, egg white and Benedictine frug around on top, while the Aperol, Pernod, and juices shimmy beneath. I'd drink this drink every night of my life. I'd teach it as an example of, as Toby said, the whole that is greater than the sum of its parts. If it could be made into food, I'd live on it.

But if it had turned out to be the Emperor's New Clothes, so be it. I can live with that, someone telling me to add this to that and keep fingers crossed, with the whole mess ending up in the sink. Toby said it above: "It tastes like everything therefore it tastes like nothing. Like adding all colors you get black." Shit happens.

But some of those disasters-on-paper will be lobster drinks: when you look at 'em, you feel the bile rise, but in your glass they are sublime. The Art of Choke is, for me, one of those drinks; the Broken Shoe Shiner is another. I'll waste a dozen fifths to find two more drinks like those in my lifetime.


Chris Amirault

camirault@eGstaff.org

eG Ethics Signatory

Sir Luscious got gator belts and patty melts

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I couldn't make a Broken Shoe Shiner because I don't have pineapple juice, but I did try the Art of Choke. No offense meant to you, Chris, or to the originator of the drink, but for me, it ended up in the sink (literally). I like bitter elements in small doses, but not this much. Which goes to show either that I'm not avant garde enough to appreciate it or that we all have different tastes. But I guess I'm glad I tried it. Now I know.

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In case you didn't notice, his comments about "complacency and creativity" are iceberg tips with sharp points.

Just to make things clear, I meant that as much, or more, about what I do as about what I come across.

Once you learn how to make drinks, it's frightfully easy to make good ones, and I find myself spinning them off one after another--but here's the thing, there's a huge difference between good drinks and great drinks. A good drink will make you say "mmmm." A great one will make you say "wow!" Reading this manifesto made me remember that I should try to shoot for greatness more often, whether I reach it or not.


aka David Wondrich

There are, according to recent statistics, 147 female bartenders in the United States. In the United Kingdom the barmaid is a feature of the wayside inn, and is a young woman of intelligence and rare sagacity. --The Syracuse Standard, 1895

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Agreed. Nothing wrong with having a set of reassuring, go-to regulars. But if I'm not tossing one into the sink now and then, I can worry that I'm settling in, and not in a good way.

Speaking of which, I just ordered the book. Eager to weigh in with more reaction when it arrives.

ET correct spelling


Edited by chrisamirault (log)

Chris Amirault

camirault@eGstaff.org

eG Ethics Signatory

Sir Luscious got gator belts and patty melts

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I have seen the book and as I mentioned, tried some of the cocktails, including the gunshop fizz and that drink in particular is awesome.   I think it is a bit of a loss leader as the pour cost is too high, but flavor and balance wise it is awesome.

I think that drink is revelatory. My only problem with it is that it is rather delicate (proof wise).

As far as it being a loss leader, I heard the same complaint from the person who made this for me, but I'd like some clarification on that point. Peychaud can be had (in bulk) for about $0.70/oz. That puts it at about $18 for a 750ml. I'm likely missing something else that goes into the equation of 'pour cost', as I'm very out of my element here, but I think that drink deserves to be evangelized, and wouldn't want the impression that it's too pricey to prevent someone from trying.

I was wondering about the pour cost of the Angostura Fizz at first, too. But at $1.10 per ounce (based on the price of the 10-ounce bottle, not the 4-ounce) that works out to about $27 for 750ml. Not as bad as it at first sounds. BTW, I notice that this drink also appears in Trader Vic's Bartender's Guide, but it likely gets overlooked by most people because it's hidden . . . in the non-alcoholic drinks section! That's right, a "non-alcoholic" drink that calls for 1 full ounce of 90-proof bitters!


Mike

"The mixing of whiskey, bitters, and sugar represents a turning point, as decisive for American drinking habits as the discovery of three-point perspective was for Renaissance painting." -- William Grimes

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My point wasn't to ask where he works, but to say that the book should include that information. If I see a recipe by "Kyle Davidson" (or whoever) and that's all, then if I don't know who he is, that doesn't give me much information. But if I see that the creator of a drink worked at Violet Hour (or Pegu Club, or PDT, or Zig Zag, or Holeman & Finch) it'll tell me more -- it may give me a clue as to the style of the drink, if the place has a certain "style"; it will at least tell me that the creator of the drink comes from a serious cocktail venue.

Details like this make this book much less than it could be.

Hey everybody,

This is the “rogue cocktails” guys – we just wanted to thank you all for the spirited discussion of our book. Its exciting to us that people take the bartending profession seriously enough that our book would be disconcerting to some and interesting/thought-provoking to others. Just to clear up the issue of citations, the decision not to name the bars from which our contributing bartenders hailed was made on account of layout and consistency constraints. That being said, here is a list of our contributors, and where they can be found:

Brad Bolt – Bar Deville, Chicago, IL

Neil Bodenheimer – Owner, Cure, New Orleans, LA

Stephen Cole – Violet Hour, Chicago, IL

Kyle Davidson – Violet Hour, Chicago, IL

Rhiannon Enlil – Cure, New Orleans, LA

Ricky Gomez – Cure, New Orleans, LA

Chris Hannah – French 75 Bar, New Orleans, LA

Ira Koplowitz – Violet Hour, Chicago, IL

Toby Maloney – Partner, Violet Hour, Chicago, IL and Patterson House, Nashville, TN

Kimberly Patton-Bragg – Clever, New Orleans, LA

Mike Ryan – Violet Hour, Chicago, IL

Troy Sidle – Violet Hour, Chicago, IL

Once again, we’d like to wholeheartedly thank our contributors for their submissions. We would not have been able to put together the book without their help, and we were thrilled to include their recipes in the collection.

Any further questions regarding the book or the etymology of the cocktails in the book can be directed to us through the contact link on our website. We are also in the process of posting a series of short interviews with the contributing bartenders along with a short biography - we just posted Toby's a couple of days ago.

Thanks!

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I think that it is interesting that 7 of the people in this book trained at The Violet Hour. I thought that I espoused the idea of minimalism to the bar tenders. I remember talking at length about taking classic cocktails and putting a little spin on them and then making the most balanced version of that possible, utilizing quality technique.

Now there is more Fernet, Cynar, Campari, & Amari on the menu than I ever would have believed 2 years ago. But luckily less Chartreuse, that kills the liquor cost.

Toby


A DUSTY SHAKER LEADS TO A THIRSTY LIFE

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A quick comment about the drink credits - I had the pleasure of enjoying several cocktails at Cure back in the spring, made by both Kirk and Maks, the Rogue guys. When I got back, and wanted to post about it, I realized that my notes were a mess, so I dropped Kirk an email, asking if he could identify the drinks in the photos I'd taken. Not only did he identify the drinks, he also made sure to credit the creator of each drink, and where that person worked at the time. So I don't think these guys are trying to steal anyone's thunder, nor do they seem to intend to disrespect others in the cocktail scene.

Is the manifesto a little confrontational? Sure, that's what manifestos are supposed to be like, but when you meet these guys, it's immediately obvious that they're not provincial egotists, they're just talented, enthusiastic guys that felt like making a bold statement. Of course, anyone is free to disagree with their premise.

It's also important to note that these guys can bring the goods. Every single drink that either of those guys made for us was both delicious and interesting. Many of them were quite challenging. I have no hesitation saying that they were, in sum, my favorite drinks I've had anywhere, (and yes I've been to Pegu Club and PDT and Violet Hour and plenty of other serious cocktail spots.) No disrespect meant to those other places, I'm just saying that these guys are working at a very high level.

And FWIW, I think The Art of Choke is awesome.


"Philadelphia’s premier soup dumpling blogger" - Foobooz

philadining.com

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my thoughts fwiw:

1. Cure is the first bar I've been outside NY that's functioning close to the top NY echelon. that's saying something. I haven't been to TVH yet.

2. I don't think these drinks are as out there as the authors think...at least not from the NY hyper-boozy, super-dry, lots of cynar, Arrack, mezcal and bitters point of view. We've been drinking those drinks for years.

3. with that said, there are some damn fine drinks in that book. and I loved the Defend Arrack and the Gunshop Fizz. they were great drinks when I had them at Cure at Tales and they've been great drinks since I've made them at home since.

4. so yeah, it's a worthwhile book.

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Which goes to show either that I'm not avant garde enough to appreciate it or that we all have different tastes.

The latter, I'm sure.

The latter, no doubt -- it's not a question of being "avant garde" but of just having or having developed a palate for larger doses of bitter.

Ten years ago I wouldn't have touched any of this stuff -- Campari, any amaro ... hell, I didn't even like dry vermouth. I've come a long way since then and I love bitter cocktails, but I still enjoy having my palate slapped (in the best possible way) and being served something that opens my eyes.

The Gunshop Fizz was one of those drinks. So was The Art of Choke, The Fall of Man (an Unicum -- not Zwack -- based cocktail) and pretty much all of the drinks I was served during my 7 or so hours at Cure two Sundays ago.

After I mentioned that I had not yet tried Amaro Nardini and really wanted to, Kirk poured me a taste of it, then made something for me that I wasn't sure he had ever made before -- a Nardini Flip: 2.5 oz of Nardini, a bit of simple, and a whole egg, shaken like hell and served in an Old Fashioned glass with a single ice cube. Holy crap.

I've been thoroughly enjoying the book and everything I've made from it so far, and I'm really looking forward to the second edition. I also wish there was a wardrobe in my bedroom which, Narnia-like, would transport me to Cure every Sunday evening at 5 right when they open and before the crowds come in, so I can spend more time with these folks, talking and drinking. Maks, Kirk and Rhiannon took great care of us, and I can't wait to see them again.

Of course, I shouldn't complain ... I'm 10-15 minutes away from The Varnish, Seven Grand and Tiki Ti. :smile:


Chuck Taggart

The Gumbo Pages, New Orleans / Los Angeles

"New Orleans food is as delicious as the less criminal forms of sin." - Mark Twain, 1884

Bia agus deoch, ceol agus craic.

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my thoughts fwiw:

1.  Cure is the first bar I've been outside NY that's functioning close to the top NY echelon.  that's saying something.  I haven't been to TVH yet.

2.  I don't think these drinks are as out there as the authors think...at least not from the NY hyper-boozy, super-dry, lots of cynar, Arrack, mezcal and bitters point of view.  We've been drinking those drinks for years.

You should get out more, dude. There are bars in San Francisco, Seattle, Portland and Atlanta (just to name cities I've been to personally) that operate at the New York level. As a single example, Zig Zag was serving Last Words before Pegu Club opened (no offense to Audrey, whom I adore). Another: Restaurant Eugene in Atlanta offers a Friday Night Flight -- three courses matched to three cocktails, most of which are custom-made for the food, which is selected on Thursday according to market availability.


Dave Scantland
Executive director
dscantland@eGstaff.org
eG Ethics signatory

Eat more chicken skin.

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The latter, no doubt -- it's not a question of being "avant garde" but of just having or having developed a palate for larger doses of bitter.

Ten years ago I wouldn't have touched any of this stuff -- Campari, any amaro ... hell, I didn't even like dry vermouth. I've come a long way since then and I love bitter cocktails, but I still enjoy having my palate slapped (in the best possible way) and being served something that opens my eyes.

Ten years ago I was drinking Negronis, Picon Punches, and Fernet and soda. I still like them, and other drinks with a bitter edge. But I prefer my bitter elements less obtrusive.

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      The reason why non-ferromagnetic cookware hasn’t worked on induction is technical, but it relates to the magnetic field and what’s called the “skin depth” of the pan’s outermost material. With copper or aluminum, the field will not excite the metals’ molecules to the extent that their friction will generate useful heat to cook food. And the way the appliances come equipped, unless the appliance detects something sufficiently large and ferromagnetic, they will not produce any field at all. Therefore, to the consternation of many cooks, pro and amateur, older (and in the opinion of some, better) cookware needs to be retired and replaced if/when they wish to switch to an induction appliance. Some cooks don’t mind, but others who, like me, have invested heavily in copper and are habituated to it and aluminum, would forego induction altogether rather than discard our cookware.
       
      But what we’ve really meant—all along--when we say or write that only ferromagnetic cookware will “work” on induction is that the frequency chosen for our appliances (20-24kHz) will not usefully excite other metals. If that frequency is increased to, say, 90-110kHz , then suddenly the impossible happens: aluminum and copper, with absolutely no ferromagnetic content, will heat in a way that is eminently useful in the kitchen.
      While Panasonic has made dual-frequency induction hotplates available in Japan for several years now, they didn’t make it available here until recently (My unit indicates it was manufactured in early 2016!). I speculate the reason for the delay relates to the detection circuitry and the switches that determine the frequency at which the field will operate.

      The introduction of all-metal induction in USA is especially interesting because it allows a direct comparison of cookware of all (metal) types. For instance, cookware nerds have long debated how copper cookware on a gas compares with disk-based stainless on induction. While the veil has not completely lifted (for that we would need extremely precise gas energy metering), we now have the ability to measure and compare copper, aluminum, clad and disk-based on the same induction hob.
       
      II. Dimensions, Weight & Clearances
       
      The Panasonic, being a true commercial appliance, is considerably larger than most consumer and crossover hotplates. It stands 6 inches tall overall, and on relatively tall (1.25”) feet, so that there is space for ample air circulation under the unit. It is 20.25 inches deep overall, including a standoff ventilation panel in back, and the angled control panel in front. It is 15” wide, and weighs in at a hefty 30.25 pounds. Suffice it to say, the Panasonic is not practically portable.

      The KY-MK3500’s Ceran pan surface is 14.25 inches wide by 14.5 inches deep, almost 43% larger in area than the VMP’s glass. Panasonic tells me they have no recommended maximum pan diameter or weight, but the tape tells me that a 15” diameter pan would not overhang the unit’s top (Compare the VMP, which can accept a maximum pan base of 10 7/8”). Common sense tells me that—unless the glass is well-braced underneath in many places, 25-30 pounds of total weight might be pushing it.
       
      For those who might consider outfitting their home kitchens with one or more of these units, in addition to having 20 amp 240v (NEMA #6-20R receptacles) electrical circuits for each appliance, 39 1/2 inches of overhead clearance is required to combustible material (31 ½” to incombustibles) and 2 inches to the back and sides (0” to incombustibles). The overhead clearance requirement and the tall 6” unit height call for no (or only very high) cabinetry and careful design of a “well” or lower countertop/table that will lower the Ceran surface to a comfortable cooking height. In other words, a tall pot on this unit on a regular-height counter might be a problem for a lot of cooks.
      III. Features

      A. Display
       
      The KY-Mk3500 has an angled 8-key spillproof keypad and red LED numerical display. The keys are large, raised and their markings are legible. All but the four Up/Down keys have their own inset indicator lights, which indicate power, mode and memory operation.
       
      The numerical display is large and bright. The numerical display area is divided between time (XX:XX) to the user’s left and power/temp to the user’s right. If the timer or program features are activated, the numerical display shows both the set time and the power/temperature. There is also a small “Hot Surface” LED icon on the panel.
      The Panasonic also actually uses the Ceran surface as a display of sorts. That is, there is a lighted circle just outside the faint positioning circle, which glows red whenever the unit is operating, awaiting a pan, or the Ceran is hot. Panasonic also claims that this display also changes brightness with the set power level, implying that the operator can judge the heat setting by a glance. Thus this display serves three purposes: (a) pan positioning; (b) burn safety; and (c) intensity.

      B. Safety Features
       
      As one would expect, there are a variety of safety features built into this appliance. In most cases, these features are controlled by detection circuits, some fixed, some defeatable/variable. This being a commercial unit, Panasonic has set the unit’s defaults with commercial users’ convenience in mind. If consumers want the full spectrum of safety settings, they need to vary these defaults. For instance, if a home cook wants to make sure the unit powers off if the pan is removed and not replaced within 3 minutes, they have to manually vary a default. Likewise if the operator wants the power to automatically shut off after 2 hours of no changes. But others, like the basic “Is there a pan there?” detection and overheat shutoff, are there no matter what and cannot be defeated.
      C. Settings & Programming

      The KY-MK3500 features both power and temperature settings. For “regular” induction, there are 20 power settings, which range from 50 watts to 3500 watts. For non-ferromagnetic pans, there are 18 power settings, which range from 60 watts to 2400 watts. The display shows these settings in numerals 1-20 and 1-18 respectively. When the power is toggled on, the unit defaults to Setting 14 in both frequencies.

      The temperature settings are the same in both modes, with 22 selectable temperatures from 285F (140C) to 500F (260C). Other than for the very lowest temperature setting, each setting increase results in a 10F temperature increase. Usefully, the display shows the set temperature, not 1-22; and until the set temperature is reached, the display indicates “Preheat”. The unit beeps when it reaches the set temperature. The Panasonic measures pan temperature using an IR sensor beneath the glass; this sensor sits about 1 inch outside the centerpoint of the painted positioning markings, yet inside of the induction coil.

      The timer operation is fast and intuitive. Once the power or temperature is set and operating, the operator merely keys the timer’s dedicated up/down buttons, and the timer display area activates. Timer settings are in any 30-second interval between 30 seconds and 9 ½ hours, and the display will show remaining time. The beeps at the end of cooking are loud.
       
      There are nine available memory programs, which can be set for either power or temperature, along with time. Programming entails pressing and holding the Program mode button, selecting the program (1-9), then picking and setting the power or temperature, then setting the timer, and finally pressing and holding the Program button again. After that, to use any of the entered programs, you simply press the Program button, select which program, and the unit will run that program within 3 seconds.
       
      In addition to Heat-Time programmability, the KY-MK3500 also provides the ability to vary 9 of the unit’s default settings: (1) Decreasing the power level granularity from 20 to 10; (2) Changing the temperature display to Celsius; (3) Enabling a long cook time shutoff safety feature; (4) Enabling the main power auto shutoff feature; (5) Disabling the glowing circle; (6) Lowering or disabling the auditory beep signals’ volume; (7) Customizing the timer finish beep; (8) Customizing the Preheat notification beep; and (9) Customizing the interval for filter cleanings.
       
      D. Maintenance
       
      The KY-MK3500 has a plastic air intake filter which can be removed and cleaned. This is not dishwashable. This filter is merely a plastic grate with ¼” square holes, so it is questionable what exactly —besides greasy dust bunnies—will be filtered. Panasonic recommends the filter be cleaned once a week. Besides that, the Ceran surface and stainless housing clean just like other appliances.
       
      IV. Acceptable Cookware
       
      Panasonic claims the unit will accept cast iron, enameled iron, stainless steel, copper, and aluminum with two provisos. First, very thin aluminum and copper may “move” on the appliance. And second, thin aluminum pans may “deform”. Panasonic does not address carbon steel pans, but I verified that they do indeed work. They also warn of the obvious fact that glass and ceramics will not work.
       
      Buyers are also warned against using cookware of specific cookware bottom shapes: round, footed, thin, and domed. Trying to use these, Panasonic warns, may disable safety features and reduce or eliminate pan heating.
       
      As far as minimum pan diameter goes, Panasonic claims the KY-MK3500 needs 5” diameter in ferromagnetic pans, and 6” in copper or aluminum ones. My own tests have shown that in fact the unit will function with a cast iron fondue pot, the base of which is only 4 1/8” in diameter, and also works with a copper saucepan, the base of which is almost exactly 5” in diameter. Obviously, the field will be most active at the very edges of such small pans, but they do function.
       
      V. Evaluation in Use

      I can say that not only does the Panasonic KY-MK3500 “work” with copper and aluminum pans, but that it works very well with them. Thermally, thick gauge conductive material pans perform in close emulation of the same pans on gas, even though there are no combustion gasses flowing up and around the pan. I found this startling.
       
      Nevertheless, a searching comparison between copper and ferromagnetic pans on this unit isn’t as straightforward as one might expect. The Panasonic is capable of dumping a full 3500 watts into ferromagnetic pans, but is limited to 2400 watts for aluminum and copper. Despite copper’s and aluminum’s superiorities in conductivity, that extra 1100 watts is going to win every speed-boil race.
       
      I initially thought I could handicap such a race simply by using the temperature setting and comparing the times required to achieve a “preheat” in a pans of cold water. Alas, no—the Panasonic’s IR function signified the copper pan was preheated to 350F before the water even reached 70F! Obviously, the entire thermal system of cold food in a cold pan needs to come to equilibrium before the Panasonic’s temperature readout becomes meaningful.

      A. Temperature Settings
       
      Unfortunately, with every pan I tried, the temperature settings were wildly inaccurate for measuring the temperature of the food. I heated 2 liters of peanut oil in a variety of pots, disk-base, enameled cast iron enameled steel, and copper. I thought it might be useful to see how close to 350F and 375F the settings were for deep frying. The oil in a Le Creuset 5.5Q Dutch oven set to 350F never made it past 285F, and it took 40:00 to get there. I kept bumping up the setting until I found that the setting for 420F will hold the oil at 346F. A disk-based pot didn’t hit 365F until the temperature setting was boosted to 400F. The only pan which came remotely close to being true to the settings was a 2mm silvered copper oven, which heated its oil to 327F when the Panasonic was set for 350F, and 380F when set for 410F.
       
      The temperature function was a lot closer to true when simply preheating an empty pan. With a setting of 350F, all the shiny stainless pans heated to just a few degrees higher (about 353-357F) and held there. This is useful for judging the Leidenfrost Point (which is the heat at which you can oil your SS and have it cook relatively nonstick) and potentially for “seasoning” carbon steel, SS and aluminum, but not much else, since it doesn’t translate to actual food temperature. There’s also the issue of the temperature settings *starting* at 285F, so holding a lower temperature for, e.g., tempering chocolate or a sous vide bath, or even a simmer would be by-guess-by-golly just like any other hob—your only resort is lots of experience with lower *power* settings.
       
      With heat-tarnished copper, a 350F setting resulted in a wide swinging between 353F and 365F, which I attribute to the copper shedding heat far faster than the other constructions, once the circuit stops the power at temperature. Then, when the circuit cycles the power back on, the copper is so responsive that it quickly overshoots the setting. Aluminum, on the other hand, *undershot*, the 350F setting, registering a cycle of 332-340F.

      I conclude that the IR sensor is set for some particular emissivity, probably for that of stainless steel. If true, the Panasonic, even though it automatically switches frequencies, does not compensate for the different emissivities of copper and aluminum. And even if Panasonic added dedicated aluminum and copper IR sensors, there is enough difference between dirty and polished that the added cost would be wasted. Bottom line here: the temperature setting mode is of extremely low utility, and should not be trusted.
       
      B. Power Mode – Pan Material Comparisons
       
      Given the differences in power setting granularity and maximum power between the two frequencies, it is difficult to assess what X watts into the pot means in, say, a copper-versus-clad or –disk showdown. What is clear, however, is that Setting X under disk and clad seems “hotter” than the same setting under copper and aluminum.

      I will need to precisely calibrate the Panasonic for wattage anyway for the hyperconductivity project, so I will obtain a higher-powered watt meter to determine the wattage of every power setting for both frequencies. Until then, however, the only way I can fairly handicap a race is to apply a reduction figure to the ferromagnetic setting (2400W being 69% of 3500W). Given that we know the wattage at the maximum settings, we can infer that Setting 14 (actually 13.8) on the 20-step ferromagnetic range iis approximately the same heat output as the maximum setting (18) for copper/aluminum.

      The boil times for 4 liters of 50F water in 10” diameter pots shocked me. The 10” x 3mm tinned copper pot’s water reached 211F in 36:41. Not an especially fast time at 2400 watts. The 10” disk-based pressure cooker bottom? Well, it didn’t make it—it took an hour to get to 208F and then hung there. So that left me wondering if the Panasonic engineers simply decided that 2400 watts was enough for copper and aluminum. I have a theory why the copper pot boiled and the SS one didn’t under the same power, but getting into that’s for another time.

      C. Evenness Comparisons
       
      The wires which generate the induction field are wound in a circular pattern; when energized, they create a torus-shaped magnetic field. The wound coil is constructed with an empty hole at its center. As matters of physics, the magnetic field’s intensity drops off extremely fast as a function of the distance from the coil; a few millimeters above the Ceran, the field is so weak no meaningful heat will be generated. This means that most induction cooktops heat *only* the very bottom of pans, and in a distinct 2-dimensional “doughnut” shape.

      All of the above can result in a pan having a cooler central spot, a hotter ring directly over the coil, and a cooler periphery outside the coil. It is left to the cookware to try to even out these thermal discontinuities when cooking. Some materials and pan constructions are better at this than others: the successful constructions utilize more highly-conductive metals such as aluminum and copper, but unless the material is very thick, there can be a ring-shaped hotspot that can scorch food.
      Until the Panasonic arrived to market, hotspot comparisons between ferromagnetic and aluminum/copper pans depended largely on comparing induction’s flat, more discrete heat ring with gas’s more diffuse, 3-dimensional one. Dodgeball-style debate ensued, with few clear conclusions. But now, for the first time, equally-powered flat heat rings in two different frequencies allow us to directly compare evenness in ferromagnetic and aluminum/copper cookware.

      The simplest and easiest way to assess cookware evenness is the “scorchprint”, which does not require infrared or other advanced thermal imaging equipment. I’ve posted on how to conduct scorchprinting elsewhere, but basically a pan is evenly dusted with flour; heat is applied to the pan bottom. As the flour is toasted, any hotspots visually emerge, giving the viewer a useful general idea of evenness.
       
      I will later post the photos of scorchprints I made of 4 different pans run using the Panasonic KY-MK3500: (1) a Demeyere 28cm Proline 5* clad frypan; (2) a Fissler Original Profi disk-base 28cm frypan; a 6mm aluminum omelet pan; and (4) a 32cm x 3.2mm Dehillerin sauté. To make it a fair race, I heated all the pans at 2400W until they reached 450F, and then backed off the power setting to maintain 450F. I did this in order not to compromise my saute’s tin lining. As you will see, both the clad Demeyere and the disk-based Fissler did print the typical brown doughnut, with a cooler center and periphery. By far the most even was the thick, all-aluminum pan, which actually was even over its entirety—even including the walls. The copper sauté was also quite even, although its larger size and mass really dissipated heat; once 450F was dialed in, no more browning happened, even after 30 minutes.
       
      I conclude that the straightgauge pans were far more effective at shunting heat to their peripheries and walls (and also to some extent into the air) than the clad and disk-based pans. The latter accumulated their heat with most of it staying in the center of the pans. Eventually, even the “doughnut hole” blended into the scorch ring because the walls were not bleeding sufficient heat away from the floor. This was especially pronounced in the Fissler, the high wall and rim areas of which never exceeded 125F. The aluminum pan, in contrast varied less than 30F everywhere on the pan.

      D. Other Considerations

      The Panasonic’s fan noise at the cook’s position was noticeable at 63 dBA, higher than with the VMP’s 57 dBA. These levels are characterized as “normal conversation” and “quiet street”, respectively. Interestingly, I found two other, potentially more important differences. First, the Panasonic’s fan stays on, even after the unit is powered off, whereas the VMP’s fan shuts off immediately when the hob is turned off. Second, the Panasonic’s fan steps down from the louder speed to a much quieter (47 dBA, characterized as “quiet home”) level until the Ceran is cool to sustained touch, at which point it shuts off completely. I think the Panasonic’s ability to continue to vent and cool itself is a great feature, especially since a cook could leave a large, full, hot pan on the glass.

      The glowing circle is useless for gauging heat setting or intensity. And while it works to indicate a hot surface, it remains lit long after you can hold your hand in place dead center.
       
      VI. Summary and Lessons
       
      The Panasonic KY-MK3500 is a solid unit, well-conceived and rugged. It is extremely easy to use. It works well with both the common 24kHz frequency used with ferromagnetic cookware, and the 90kHz frequency chosen here for copper and aluminum. It effectively and automatically switches between the two.

      In my opinion, it points the way to expanding the worldwide induction appliance market to include dual frequencies. It also obviates the need to: (a) junk otherwise excellent cookware merely to have induction; and (b) retrofit designs to bond on ferromagnetic outer layers. In fact, in my opinion, my tests indicate that, in a dual-frequency world, adding ferromagnetic bottoms may well be a drag on pans’ performance.
       
      I also consider the Panasonic Met-All to be ground-breaking in what it can tell us about *pans*, because all metallic pans are now commensurable on induction. Clearly (to me anyway), watt-for-watt, the copper and aluminum pans performed better than did the clad and disk-based pans on this unit. Boil times were faster, there was less propensity to scorch, and the conductive-sidewall pans definitely added more heat to the pans’ contents. We may ultimately find that 90kHz fields save energy compared to 24kHz fields, much as copper and aluminum require less heat on gas and electric coil.
      In terms of heat transfer, the copper and aluminum pans came close to emulating the same pans on gas. And at 2400W/3500W it has the power of a full size appliance in a relatively small tabletop package.
       
      The Panasonic is far from perfect, however. It can’t really be considered portable. There are far too few temperature settings, and what few it has are not accurate or consistent in terms of judging pan contents and attaining the same temperature in different pans (and even the same pan unless clean). The luminous ring could easily have been made a useful indicator of intensity, but wasn’t. And it lacks things that should be obvious, including a through-the-glass “button” contact thermocouple, more power granularity, an analog-style control knob, and capacity to accept an external thermocouple probe for PID control.
       
      Most importantly for me, the Panasonic KY-MK3500 portends more good things to come. Retail price remains $1,700-$2,400, but I jumped on it at $611, and I’ve seen it elsewhere for as low as $1,200.
       
      The manual can be found here: ftp://ftp.panasonic.com/commercialfoo...
       
      Photo Credit:  Panasonic Corporation

    • By umami5
      Has anyone come across a digital version of Practical Professional Cookery (revised 3rd edition) H.L. Cracknell & R.J. Kaufmann.
      I am using this as the textbook for my culinary arts students and a digital version would come in very handy for creating notes and handouts.
    • By Mullinix18
      I dont believe that any English translation of Carêmes works exist. An incomplete version was published in 1842 (I think) but even the that version seems lackluster for the few recipes it does cover. I think it's time the world looks to its past, but I don't speak great French and it's a huge task to undertake. I hopefully plan on publishing this work and anyone who helps me will get a very fair cut, and if we decide not to publish it, I'll put it out on the internet for free. I'm working in Google docs so we can collaborate. I'm first cataloging the index to cross reference the pre-existing incomplete English version to give us a reference of what yet needs to be done, and from there we will go down the list of recipies and Translate them one by one. Simple google translate goes only so far, as it is 1700s French culinary terms and phrases being used. I'd like to preserve as much of Carêmes beautiful and flowery language as possible. Who's with me? 
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