Alan Richman's Top 25 Pizzas GQ Article

[docsconz]

  chrisamirault said:

Thanks for the news flash. My point, obviously, is that ranking cities for pizza suggests quality that doesn't exist. As I said, Al Forno is hit-or-miss, at best -- and pricey to boot -- while B&Ts has been pretty lousy each time I've gone. That means that two of Richman's top 25 can't deliver consistently, even in their own dining rooms.

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They must have been lucky and "hit" when Richman was there. Thank you for illustrating my point. I will add that I have never been so can't add an opinion on these to either side. I would sooner take your word, Chris, knowing that you have been to these multiple times.

[nickrey]

I suspect it was put there to cause controversy but the statement in the article that the best pizza on earth is made in the USA tends to be unsupported by the America's Plate Award for best pizza, which in recent years has gone to:

Italy

France

Spain

Australia (twice)

Notice any country conspicuous by its absence?

[Jon Savage]

He doesn't get it. Italian Pizza as I've enjoyed it in Italy for nearly 30 years is sublime. Knife, fork minimal toppings and all.

[Fat Guy]

  docsconz said:

One thing not clear to me is how many times he visited the various restaurants.

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I'm pretty sure the answer, in most cases, is once. And I'm not sure what's wrong with that.

[prasantrin]

  Fat Guy said:

I'm pretty sure the answer, in most cases, is once. And I'm not sure what's wrong with that.

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As others have mentioned, restaurants can have off days. If he visited a restaurant only once, and happened to go on a day when half the staff called in sick due to the norovirus, then his "review" (and therefore his ranking) of that place may not give a complete picture. Like when you meet a person who has just found out his wife is having an affair, but you didn't know it, so you walk away saying, "My god that guy's an a**hole!" Is he really, or is he just like that on that day at that moment?

It wouldn't be as egregious if the piece were published on, for example, his personal blog, but it's presented in a national publication as a type of review. The article is titled "America's Best 25 Pizzas" not "Alan Richman's 25 Favourite Pizzas", after all.

That being said, he did eat 3 times as many pizzas as places visited, so on average, he tried at least 3 different pizzas at each restaurant. That's a lot of pizza.

[Fat Guy]

For New York Times-style restaurant reviews, where once a week a single establishment receives a 1200-word review, it makes sense to visit a restaurant a few times. For a pizza roundup involving hundreds of pizzas, it's simply not possible.

Were it the case that most top-25 pizza stories in national magazines involve multiple visits, whereas the Richman story is comparatively thin on research, there might me something to the argument that he should have made more visits. But as far as I can tell it's the most thoroughly researched piece of its kind ever. So it's kind of funny that anybody would say he should have done more. (Is anybody actually saying that?)

When writing a story like this it's totally reasonable to give each establishment one chance. The burden isn't on the journalist to visit again and again just in case the pizzeria had an off night. It's true, any restaurant can have a bad night, even one with three Michelin stars. That's life. It's also true that every plate of food a restaurant puts out could be the one that gets evaluated in a major publication. That's life too.

Edited May 20, 2009 by Fat Guy (log)

[Busboy]

  nickrey said:

I suspect it was put there to cause controversy but the statement in the article that the best pizza on earth is made in the USA tends to be unsupported by the America's Plate Award for best pizza, which in recent years has gone to:

Italy

France

Spain

Australia (twice)

Notice any country conspicuous by its absence?

←

With all due respect to Australia's pizza community -- whose hospitality I hope someday to enjoy -- a quick glance at the America's Plate websitesuggests that the America's Plate honorees do not specialize in the "American pie" Richman finds superior. Not to mention the fact that a cook or two able to churn out overdecorated yupppie pizzas ("squash cream made with buffalo milk ricotta and topped with buffalo milk smoked mozzarella, roasted red peppers, and zucchini flowers filled with zucchini, gorgonzola, fontina and mascarpone cheese") does not necessarily indicate a broader culture of quality pizza. Or are we seriously suggesting that China and the Czech Republic are now global contenders?

[nickrey]

  Busboy said:

  nickrey said:

I suspect it was put there to cause controversy but the statement in the article that the best pizza on earth is made in the USA tends to be unsupported by the America's Plate Award for best pizza, which in recent years has gone to:

Italy

France

Spain

Australia (twice)

Notice any country conspicuous by its absence?

←

With all due respect to Australia's pizza community -- whose hospitality I hope someday to enjoy -- a quick glance at the America's Plate websitesuggests that the America's Plate honorees do not specialize in the "American pie" Richman finds superior. Not to mention the fact that a cook or two able to churn out overdecorated yupppie pizzas ("squash cream made with buffalo milk ricotta and topped with buffalo milk smoked mozzarella, roasted red peppers, and zucchini flowers filled with zucchini, gorgonzola, fontina and mascarpone cheese") does not necessarily indicate a broader culture of quality pizza. Or are we seriously suggesting that China and the Czech Republic are now global contenders?

←

Perhaps they should call it the "World's Plate."

If you're ever over here, I'll shout pizza

[Fat Guy]

Adam Kuban of SliceNY seems mostly positive:

"It's a refreshing list. I'm a guy who reads far too much about pizza (is that even possible?), and as such, I'm tired of seeing the same old boring Top X-many lists held down by the same old stalwarts in NYC, New Haven, and Chicago. Richman's list has just enough old-school places on it to lend it credibility and ward off any accusations of blatant pot-stirring."

http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2009...us-america.html

[Busboy]

  nickrey said:

  Busboy said:

  nickrey said:

I suspect it was put there to cause controversy but the statement in the article that the best pizza on earth is made in the USA tends to be unsupported by the America's Plate Award for best pizza, which in recent years has gone to:

Italy

France

Spain

Australia (twice)

Notice any country conspicuous by its absence?

←

With all due respect to Australia's pizza community -- whose hospitality I hope someday to enjoy -- a quick glance at the America's Plate websitesuggests that the America's Plate honorees do not specialize in the "American pie" Richman finds superior. Not to mention the fact that a cook or two able to churn out overdecorated yupppie pizzas ("squash cream made with buffalo milk ricotta and topped with buffalo milk smoked mozzarella, roasted red peppers, and zucchini flowers filled with zucchini, gorgonzola, fontina and mascarpone cheese") does not necessarily indicate a broader culture of quality pizza. Or are we seriously suggesting that China and the Czech Republic are now global contenders?

←

Perhaps they should call it the "World's Plate."

If you're ever over here, I'll shout pizza

←

Excellent. I will leave my chauvanism behind and, perhaps, ask for a glass or six of inexpensive buy hearty shiraz with which to knock it back. Or should I just stick to a good lager?

[docsconz]

  Fat Guy said:

For New York Times-style restaurant reviews, where once a week a single establishment receives a 1200-word review, it makes sense to visit a restaurant a few times. For a pizza roundup involving hundreds of pizzas, it's simply not possible.

Were it the case that most top-25 pizza stories in national magazines involve multiple visits, whereas the Richman story is comparatively thin on research, there might me something to the argument that he should have made more visits. But as far as I can tell it's the most thoroughly researched piece of its kind ever. So it's kind of funny that anybody would say he should have done more. (Is anybody actually saying that?)

When writing a story like this it's totally reasonable to give each establishment one chance. The burden isn't on the journalist to visit again and again just in case the pizzeria had an off night. It's true, any restaurant can have a bad night, even one with three Michelin stars. That's life. It's also true that every plate of food a restaurant puts out could be the one that gets evaluated in a major publication. That's life too.

←

It may very well be the most thoroughly researched piece of its kind ever and I applaud him for the effort. Should he have qualified the piece as the "25 best pizzas of my life" or of "my experience" I would have no argument. He didn't. He called them rather definitively "America's 25 Best Pizzas," a very strong statement impossible to prove or disprove and extremely subjective (as all lists like this are). Based upon his "research" he may indeed be in a better position than any other single individual, but the absolute 25 best? It is an interesting list and I'm sure the pizzas on it are worthy of consideration, but I don't buy it. In my experience, the best pizza I've ever had was in Naples and I don't mean Florida.

[Holly Moore]

  docsconz said:

.....

It may very well be the most thoroughly researched piece of its kind ever and I applaud him for the effort. Should he have qualified the piece as the "25 best pizzas of my life" or of "my experience" I would have no argument. He didn't. He called them rather definitively "America's 25 Best Pizzas," a very strong statement impossible to prove or disprove and extremely subjective (as all lists like this are). Based upon his "research" he may indeed be in a better position than any other single individual, but the absolute 25 best? It is an interesting list and I'm sure the pizzas on it are worthy of consideration, but I don't buy it. In my experience, the best pizza I've ever had was in Naples and I don't mean Florida.

←

The qualification "my experience" is implied in a food ranking. Just like an op-ed piece need not begin, "in my opinion."

I am happy just looking through such lists for any choices that reaffirm my opinion. The more we agree, the more accurate a list.

[slkinsey]

I think it's a little absurd to suppose that such a list would be, should be or is received as a definitive ranking of the best pizzas in America. I take it more like when a Sports Illustrated writer comes up with a #1 to #32 ranking of all the teams in the NFL. Another writer is going to rank them differently, and the fans will never agree.

If anything, it should be clear from the article that Richman has certain preferences when looking at a pizza. He seems to be fairly firmly focused on the crust, for example, and does not seem particularly fond of the "pile on the toppings" style of pizza. Someone who had those preferences would very likely have ranked Di Fara #1 and would have had an entirely different list on the basis of those preferences. This is the nature of the beast. By it's very nature, this piece is "Alan Richman's 25 Best Pizzas in America (based on the pizzas that he tried when he was there, and perhaps already partially invalidated by the opening of new pizzerias, etc.)."

I don't personally agree with him on the primacy of American pizza styles over Italian styles (and there are more Italian models than the Neapolitan one). But I think he was right to not include "Chicago deep dish style" (not so much because it's not good, but because it operates in such a widely different stylistic space from all the others) and absolutely correct to refuse all "all demands that I visit an adored pizzeria." I can't tell you how many times I've had mediocre-at-best pizza at a pizzeria that some friend lauded as "the best in the country... and wouldn't you know it, it's right in my hometown of Nacogdoches, Texas (or Clackamas, Oregon or wherever). The fact is that the preponderance of these adored pizzerias suck, and the ones that don's suck are invariably on the foodie radar as outstanding in their class and therefore already calling to someone like Richman on that basis.

[docsconz]

  Holly Moore said:

  docsconz said:

.....

It may very well be the most thoroughly researched piece of its kind ever and I applaud him for the effort. Should he have qualified the piece as the "25 best pizzas of my life" or of "my experience" I would have no argument. He didn't. He called them rather definitively "America's 25 Best Pizzas," a very strong statement impossible to prove or disprove and extremely subjective (as all lists like this are). Based upon his "research" he may indeed be in a better position than any other single individual, but the absolute 25 best? It is an interesting list and I'm sure the pizzas on it are worthy of consideration, but I don't buy it. In my experience, the best pizza I've ever had was in Naples and I don't mean Florida.

←

The qualification "my experience" is implied in a food ranking. Just like an op-ed piece need not begin, "in my opinion."

I am happy just looking through such lists for any choices that reaffirm my opinion. The more we agree, the more accurate a list.

←

Sure, Holly, but he still bills the list as "America's 25 best," which in my experience no single individual no matter how experienced is qualified to determine.

[Fat Guy]

That's a very thin reed. First of all, it should be pretty obvious that when an article has a byline the opinions expressed therein are the author's. Is anybody under the impression that this is anything other than "Alan Richman's opinion about the best pizzas, based on what he tried and not based on what he didn't try"? Second, when you say "He didn't," you imply that he writes the titles, does the marketing, etc. That's true for a solo blogger, but not for someone writing for a magazine. Titles and the like are the magazine's decision. And yes, they're trying to sell magazines. It's perfectly legitimate to make strong claims for the purpose of making the article more memorable, promotable, etc. Finally, 100% of "best of" rankings like this are going to be based on limited data. Even if you visit every pizzeria 100 times someone can argue that if you didn't go 101 times it's not truly a "best of" list.

[docsconz]

  Fat Guy said:

That's a very thin reed. First of all, it should be pretty obvious that when an article has a byline the opinions expressed therein are the author's. Is anybody under the impression that this is anything other than "Alan Richman's opinion about the best pizzas, based on what he tried and not based on what he didn't try"? Second, when you say "He didn't," you imply that he writes the titles, does the marketing, etc. That's true for a solo blogger, but not for someone writing for a magazine. Titles and the like are the magazine's decision. And yes, they're trying to sell magazines. It's perfectly legitimate to make strong claims for the purpose of making the article more memorable, promotable, etc. Finally, 100% of "best of" rankings like this are going to be based on limited data. Even if you visit every pizzeria 100 times someone can argue that if you didn't go 101 times it's not truly a "best of" list.

←

Sure, the marketer's and editors came up with the title. That doesn't hold water. I did say it was an interesting and even a useful list, but it isn't what whoever claimed it was.

As for your last argument, I won't even answer it, but to say there is no perfect list but there is an asymptotic curve that approaches one. This is not that curve.

[docsconz]

One thing I am not saying is that I could come up with a better list (or anyone else for that matter).

[Sneakeater]

In terms of this list's effect on a place like Franny's, I could imagine that being on the list would have drawn them some customers they wouldn't otherwise have gotten. But I can't imagine anyone who would've gone there anyway staying away because it isn't on this list.

And since they're NEVER not packed, I doubt it matters.

[Fat Guy]

  docsconz said:

there is no perfect list but there is an asymptotic curve that approaches one. This is not that curve.

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But then you have to ask about the logical implications of that claim.

Alan Richman traveled 20,000 miles over a period of 4 months while researching this article, during which time he sampled 386 pizzas at 109 different restaurants. It must have cost GQ tens of thousands of dollars. I hope we can stipulate that this represents the extreme upper limit of what we could ever expect from an individual journalist, asymptotically speaking.

So, if that's not enough, what we're saying is that it's not possible for any individual journalist to compile a national best-of list of pizzas, burgers, etc. Individual journalists are barred from that game. The only permissible sources for best-of lists are committee processes (Michelin, etc.) or popularity contests (e.g., Zagat), which have larger sample sizes.

That argument will sort of make sense just as soon as one of those sources comes up with a list of pizzerias that isn't a total joke. (Remember 10 years ago when Zagat tried this sort of thing in "Zagats' America's Best Meal Deals"? On its nationwide list of "Top Delis," there was not a single New York deli. They went with d'Bronx Deli in

Kansas City, which happens to serve pizza too.)

[docsconz]

I obviously did not make my point clear enough, Steven. Richman's list is good. It is useful. I t may even be the best approximation out there, but it is not the 25 Best Pizzas in America anymorre than The San Pellegrino Top 50 Best Restaurants in the world is an accurate representation of what it purports to measure, though I think its methodology may be superior to Richman's, even as flawed as the top 50 is. Lists like this are fun, but they are by no means as definitive as they would like to think themselves to be. I'm not sure that it is truly possible to measure a 25 best of anything without subjective bias. If the claim for Richman's piece was the same as the title of this topic, I would not be arguing.

[Chris Amirault]

  docsconz said:

Lists like this are fun, but they are by no means as definitive as they would like to think themselves to be. I'm not sure that it is truly possible to measure a 25 best of anything without subjective bias.

I don't know how a list can think, and it strikes me that Richman's description of what he did and didn't take into consideration is as blunt a declaration of subjectivity as you're going to get. But what list isn't subjective?

  Quote

If the claim for Richman's piece was the same as the title of this topic, I would not be arguing.

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We all know that authors rarely, if ever, write their titles. So is this argument merely about some GQ copy editor's decision to use an absolutely standard titling strategy for a "Top XX List"?

[Busboy]

I think the only way to truly approximate a comprehensive "best in America" would be for Richman to amass a teem of 100 sub-judges, each trained by him in an intensive month-long session in major pizza centers across the country and then dispersed to limited geographical regions accounting for the entirety of the U.S., with the instruction that they report back on any pizza of of superior quality in their region - maybe 500 pies across the U.S.

Then a select handful of judges, comparable to the referees chosen for the playoffs, would evaluate these offerings, with each judge taking two regions to ensure overlap and that one judge's personal prejudices or off day did not eliminate a worthy contender.

At this point, with roughly 100 pizzas remaining in contention, a tour bus containing Mr. Richman, two attractive assistants, a small, portable workout room and myself would be rolled out and Al and I -- I call him "Al" by this point -- would try them all, over a two-month and he would render judgment from atop the heights of the greatest pizza evaluation program in the history of humankind.

I figure the whole thing would take a year and maybe 500 grand, to be financed by 50,000 pizza lovers putting up $10 apiece for a chance to participate in this great and noble endeavo,r at levels from unpaid first-level judge to fully salaried bag carrier and assistant taster (responsible for retastes when an establishment might credibly be thought to have had an "off night") on the final tour.

Edited May 21, 2009 by Busboy (log)

[Chris Amirault]

I volunteer for both inter-rater reliability training and validity measurement.

[KatieLoeb]

He's right about Taconelli's. The white pie is my favorite too, but I usually get spinach on it along with the garlic, and occasionally fresh tomato slices in summer when they're best. Calling ahead to reserve your crusts is a pain, but overordering by at least one pie makes for excellent leftovers.

I thoroughly respect the amount of pizza ordered and eaten for this endeavor. That's dedication.

Edited May 22, 2009 by KatieLoeb (log)

[Chris Amirault]

Calling ahead to reserve crusts?