What makes something haute cuisine?

[SobaAddict70]

Soba.  I think it's just a matter of which way we want the discussion to go whether we define it in terms of the tradition flowing down through Escoffier, which is what I had in mind, or whether we include analogous levels of cooking in any country.  I just think the latter will make the task of defining it close to impossible.

That's my point. You can't fit something like "haute cuisine" through one narrow set of conditions and traditions. There will always be permutations that don't fit the accepted view. However, I can be magnanimous and say that regardless of which view you're discussing, there seem to be overlapping elements (i.e., artistic presentation, transformation of ingredients, use of luxury materials, variety of cooking styles).

GJ -- I would define "sophisticated and elegant" as "a level above and beyond mundane and common so as to seem informed in matters of taste, complex in matters of design, yet simplicity personified in matters of execution". Food for thought, eh? So by that definition, Craft definitely fits the bill.

SA

[Nick]

Not if Nina W. is going to be there, too.

This ignorant country hick has found himself in the wrong thread.

Who's Nina W. ?

[Steve Plotnicki]

Wilfrd - Well you know it doesn't have to be smooth and silky. As long as it expresses the philosophy of HC (which is what I'm trying to get a definition of.) To me the practice of HC is like painting in a style. In order to be an Impressionist painter you have to adopt the philosophy and technique of how Impressionism. And to serve HC, you need to cook and present food that is consistent with a certain technique and style. Coarse, unfortunately for you, is often not consistant with HC.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Soba - I don't think Craft is haute cuisine because they don't apply HC technique to the food. Their thing is more Italo-American in style, with some French technique mixed in and some Asian influences as well. They have fantastic ingredients and they serve them perfectly. But ultimately what they are serve is "New American" cuisine. Now Jean-Georges or Le Bernadin. They serve haute cuisine.

[g.johnson]

Plotters: Coarse is not necessarilty coarse, nor refined refined.

[SobaAddict70]

Well this is the typical argument around here. One that always says that because the definition of what haute cuisine is has to be evaluated on a case by case basis, that the definition of haute cuisine is relative to what people agree is the definition. Excuse me for saying this but that is incorrect. They teach haute cuisine in numerous cooking schools in France and elsewhere. It is the practice of a specific discipline in regards to food preparation and food service.  It is a way of doing things. It is a philosophy and a strategy. And though it contains a range where a number of different opinions can be correct, it is not a matter of opinion.

You might go to Daniel and eat Tete de Veau, and the expectation would be that it is Tete de Veau at the most refined level. And you expect the same dish at Cafe Boulud to be less refined, more so at DB Bistro Moderne and even less refined at your local traiteur. Using this example, one would think that haute cuisine comes down to "the most luxurious way to serve a dish including artistic preparation." Undoubtedy that usually means the smoothest and the silkiest and the creamiest. And that's why the Tete de Veau at your local bistro might be better then what they serve you at Daniel. It's a dish that is meant to be coarse. And then you might go to Daniel and eat a mushroom flan with a slab of sauteed foie gras laid atop so perfectly that it is seemless with the flan. And the same dish at a bistro might be served as roasted musrooms tossed with cubes of sauteed foie gras (that sounds good doesn't it?) and dressed in some way. Where is the line here?

You're excused.

But that is a very limiting viewpoint, even if you are technically correct from a purely semantic view.

As a tradition, kaiseki has evolved from its roots in the Japanese tea ceremony (which was a social requirement among the samurai class -- I'm weak on my Japanese history here, so perhaps others can fill in), and been refined through the centuries to the point where it can legitimately lay claim as a form of "haute cuisine", replete with a philosophy/strategy and any of the innumerable elements that French haute cuisine can claim as its own.

SA

[SobaAddict70]

Who's Nina W. ?

She is the New York City incarnation of the Goddess of e-gullet.

SA

[Steve Plotnicki]

Sobasan - Nobody is arguing that kaiseki isn't the "haute cuisine" of Japanese food. It's just that when I asked the question I was referring to western style food preparation and service. But you are free to expand the context by demonstrating that kaiseki or anything else meets the definition of HC as soon as we figure out what that is.

[GordonCooks]

So what exactly is haute cuisine? Because I can tell you I know it when I see it (taste it,) but how do we draw the distinction between it and other types of cuisine on paper?

Haute cuisine is when your meat, starch, and vegetable exist vertically instead of horizontally on your plate.

With that - off to happy hour and a fine weekend to all !

[yvonne johnson]

Isn't haute cuisine just something with a truffle?

Inspiration: Elizabth David ( French Country Cooking ), "....Haute Cuisine became ridiculously excessive, and no dish was considered really refined without a garnish of sliced truffle."

[hollywood]

Not if Nina W. is going to be there, too.

This ignorant country hick has found himself in the wrong thread.

Who's Nina W. ?

She's egullet's answer to haute couture.

[SobaAddict70]

So define it already! heheh

I think the line is where bistro/peasant food ends and refined cuisine begins. So using your example, a soup based on the essence of crustaceans -- bouilliabase (sic) isn't HC...far from it. A good lobster bisque has elements of it, but probably isn't it either. Certainly stockmaking and saucemaking are necessary elements. That same lobster bisque, first presented as a mound of peekytoe crabmeat and lobster tailmeat, over which is poured the bisque, and then topped off with a lobster cream (in which tomalley from the lobster is incorporated) probably borders on it.

SA

[hollywood]

That's my point.  You can't fit something like "haute cuisine" through one narrow set of conditions and traditions.  There will always be permutations that don't fit the accepted view.  However, I can be magnanimous and say that regardless of which view you're discussing, there seem to be overlapping elements (i.e., artistic presentation, transformation of ingredients, use of luxury materials, variety of cooking styles).

Exactly. There's a cutting edge, avant garde, break the rules and beat them at their own game aspect to haute cuisine which prevents the Plotto Academy from coming up with a perfect form or definition of h.c. Expect the unexpected.

[britcook]

Haute cuisine? My $0.02. Regardless of national origin it has the following characteristics:

1) Multiple layers of flavour within each component which work together to make a dish which is greater than the sum of its parts.

2) A combination of flavours, textures and colours which have not only immediate impact but length - they all linger

3) Cuisine which, although not isolated from first class ingredients, will allow technique to triumph over minor shortcomings in its constituent parts.

4) Said techniques will extract the essence of the components to allow them to commingle as set out in point 1.

Is that un peu pretentious? Well we are talking haute cuisine

[Nick]

Haute cuisine? My $0.02. Regardless of national origin it has the following characteristics:

1) Multiple layers of flavour within each component which work together to make a dish which is greater than the sum of its parts.

2) A combination of flavours, textures and colours which have not only immediate impact but length - they all linger

3) Cuisine which, although not isolated from first class ingredients, will allow technique to triumph over minor shortcomings in its constituent parts.

4) Said techniques will extract the essence of the components to allow them to commingle as set out in point 1.

Is that un peu pretentious? Well we are talking haute cuisine

Thanks Brit. That's the best definition I could hope for. Most of the above has had me completely befuddled.

It's what we call around here, good cookin'.

Edit: Doesn't take much to befuddle me.

[Suzanne F]

Not if Nina W. is going to be there, too.

This ignorant country hick has found himself in the wrong thread.

Who's Nina W. ?

Sorry, Nick. I was being "exclusionary," that old eGullet bugagoo. Maybe because you fit right in so well, I forgot that you're fairly new and may have missed the discussions. Ignorant, my foot.

Nina Wugmeister, one of the members here, has very strong opinions of what does and does not constitute proper dining-out attire. There's been at least one thread on it.

Again, mea culpa. But now we know you're a "t-shirt-and-jeans" kiind of guy. (Not flannel shirt? or is that only in deepest winter?)

[Jinmyo]

Soba - I don't think Craft is haute cuisine because they don't apply HC technique to the food. Their thing is more Italo-American in style, with some French technique mixed in and some Asian influences as well. They have fantastic ingredients and they serve them perfectly. But ultimately what they are serve is "New American" cuisine. Now Jean-Georges or Le Bernadin. They serve haute cuisine.

Steve, so "New American" is by definition not haute?

[Nick]

Again, mea culpa.  But now we know you're a "t-shirt-and-jeans" kiind of guy.    (Not flannel shirt?  or is that only in deepest winter?)

I'm more of a sweat shirt guy when it gets cold.

Thanks for explaining Nina W. I'm a little slow but but I'll catch on after awhile.

[g.johnson]

Haute cuisine? My $0.02. Regardless of national origin it has the following characteristics:

1) Multiple layers of flavour within each component which work together to make a dish which is greater than the sum of its parts.

2) A combination of flavours, textures and colours which have not only immediate impact but length - they all linger

3) Cuisine which, although not isolated from first class ingredients, will allow technique to triumph over minor shortcomings in its constituent parts.

4) Said techniques will extract the essence of the components to allow them to commingle as set out in point 1.

Is that un peu pretentious? Well we are talking haute cuisine

Then cassoulet is haute cuisine, no?

[britcook]

Then cassoulet is haute cuisine, no?

The best is. The rest is.....

stew.

[Nick]

Then cassoulet is haute cuisine, no?

The best is. The rest is.....

stew.

Maybe you have a recipe for cassoulet?

[g.johnson]

Then cassoulet is haute cuisine, no?

The best is. The rest is.....

stew.

I have to disagree. However good it gets, cassoulet is a peasant dish, bas cuisine. Haute cuisine suggests conspicuous consumption and elaboration (even over-elaboration).

[Nick]

I have to disagree. However good it gets, cassoulet is a peasant dish, bas cuisine. Haute cuisine suggests conspicuous consumption and elaboration (even over-elaboration).

"bas cuisine" - had to do another Google search. It was all French stuff that needed to be translated. Didn't bother.

So cassoulet is a peasant dish? Probably is. Like so many of the haute cuisine dishes that are bragged about here. Many of them had their beginnings in "peasant dishes". I would rather rather have a simple meal cooked by simple people that knew cooking, that ran in their families for generations, than the cooking of latest hot-shot in Paris or NYC.

Just the country boy in the wrong thread.

[SobaAddict70]

The best is. The rest is.....

stew.

No stew.

Just steak (topped with pan-seared foie gras).

SA

[stefanyb]

Haute cuisine? My $0.02. Regardless of national origin it has the following characteristics:

1) Multiple layers of flavour within each component which work together to make a dish which is greater than the sum of its parts.

2) A combination of flavours, textures and colours which have not only immediate impact but length - they all linger

3) Cuisine which, although not isolated from first class ingredients, will allow technique to triumph over minor shortcomings in its constituent parts.

4) Said techniques will extract the essence of the components to allow them to commingle as set out in point 1.

Is that un peu pretentious? Well we are talking haute cuisine

This list is definitely the closest yet to a definition I can support, although I have my own list.

Haute cuisine is all about: multiple layers of flavoring, use of the very finest quality of ingredients, the extraction of every ounce of flavor and essence from these ingredients, use of these ingredients by serious, professional, trained practitioners of cooking, and well combined flavors that demonstrate expertise and knowledge of the history of food and cooking.

I think these criteria cover all cuisine categories.