Japanese Knives: The Big Topic

[daveb]

J,

 

The Usaba is more than a single bevel Nakiri, technique is critical to properly use it.  The primary use is Katsuramuki or rotary peeling.  These super thin peels are then ken cut  into decorative (and tasty) pieces.  Most users will be better served with a more robust and versatile Nakiri.

 

Japanes Cooking Knives is a good reference and a good read.

http://www.amazon.com/Japanese-Kitchen-Knives-Essential-Techniques/dp/1568364903/ref=sr_1_sc_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1412086811&sr=8-2-spell&keywords=japaanese+cooking+knives

Edited September 30, 2014 by daveb (log)

[JoNorvelleWalker]

Thanks for the recommendation.  I ordered a copy of the book.

 

One thing about the nakiri, even at 180mm the blade seems rather short.  Usaba are available in much longer lengths.  As I recall Watanabe suggests the 180mm length nakkiri if you are over five and a half feet tall.  I am a woman and I am six foot.  Is there a reason a long nakiri/nakkiri does not seem to exist?  Not just from Watanabe, from any bladesmith I have found.

[Hassouni]

Japanese knives intended for home use are not that long. Keep in mind housing tends to be smaller, kitchens are likely smaller, etc, than the American standard, and there isn't as much room to bang around a giant knife.  Santoku, nakiri, funayuki, bunka hocho, and other such knives are rarely more than 180mm. Even usuba and deba, which do come in a great variety of lengths, are available in those sizes, too. However, as I understand it, the single bevel knives are used mostly in a professional rather than a home setting.

 

If you want a long blade that will slice its way through vegetables at lightning speed, you're better off getting the "laser" variety of gyutou, such as those made by Konosuke, Suisin, and others. You can get them anywhere from 210 to 270 mm.

Edited October 1, 2014 by Hassouni (log)

[rotuts]

excellent points, H

 

I also wonder if the 180 mm limit is the result derived from the fact that the nakiri is used for chopping, an up and down motion

 

rather than slicing, a pull through motion.

 

banging around Amazon there were some ref.s at the bottom of a page I cant reproduce and did not bookmark to some

 

knife makers in japan.  they had long nakiri like knives, but mostly sushi / sashimi long knives.  they were is the 1000 + + + USD range.

 

guess that's why I did not bookmark them.

 

and some idiot bought a basketball team for a billion bucks.  if he had a noodle in his head ( I dont think he does, just me saying )

 

he could have bought 3 - 4 really fine Japanese knives, along w a private sushi bar and distinguished Master Sushi/Sashimi chef.

 

beter value there I think.

 

PS

 

found a few at the bottom of this page :

 

http://shoei-do.net/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=161&zenid=7fff5a64c9bdfc4d6e39261ee72cdfe6

 

and

 

http://shoei-do.net/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=3&products_id=140

Edited October 1, 2014 by rotuts (log)

[rotuts]

Odd:

 

www.watanabeblade.com does not work for me any more

 

I get a verizon notice,  not safari

 

but 

 

http://www.kitchen-knife.jp/

 

does.

 

just to keep Y'all drooling.

[daveb]

 

 

One thing about the nakiri, even at 180mm the blade seems rather short.  Usaba are available in much longer lengths.  As I recall Watanabe suggests the 180mm length nakkiri if you are over five and a half feet tall.  I am a woman and I am six foot.  Is there a reason a long nakiri/nakkiri does not seem to exist?  Not just from Watanabe, from any bladesmith I have found.

 

To me using a Nakiri is fun.  The knife dances on the board through the vegs.  I've had Nakiri in 210, 180 and 165mm.  The 210 (Shig) was a fine knife but to to big and clunky to dance for me.  The right 180 has eluded me (and Watanabe  may be it) but I think it would be a perfect size.  My 165 Carter dances well but is a wee bit short for bulk use. Is fun for a little bit of this and a little of that.

 

I've not seen a Usuba longer than 210 but won't say there's not one.  It would be difficult to effectively use a longed edge.for in hand cutting.  . 

Edited October 1, 2014 by daveb (log)

[heidih]

Cleaning out the kitchen cupboards I stumbled on this "gift" from years ago. Never used. I googled M Carter and see the site but can't tell what my knife is and if it is worth keeping. Images all have horrid glare - sorry.

[daveb]

Nice gift!

 

It's a Carter.  Can't tell length but prob something close to: http://www.cartercutlery.com/5-2-sun-kuro-uchi-wa-bocho-ironwood-133grams/

 

Your's was likely done before he started offering upgraded handles.

 

I've one like it and it's a great little cutter.

Edited October 1, 2014 by daveb (log)

[rotuts]

nice

 

very nice !

 

maybe some one can read the Japanese and tell you more !

Edited October 1, 2014 by rotuts (log)

[heidih]

Nice gift!

 

It's a Carter.  Can't tell length but prob something close to: http://www.cartercutlery.com/5-2-sun-kuro-uchi-wa-bocho-ironwood-133grams/

 

Your's was likely done before he started offering upgraded handles.

 

I've one like it and it's a great little cutter.

 

Yes it must be at least 10 years old - from the knife guy "ex".  OK maybe I'll give it a spin versus re-gifting - thanks!

[rotuts]

perhaps take a pic and email the company ....

 

let us know

[JoNorvelleWalker]

As of last night Watanabe's website was back up...yen is holding steady.

 

A laser gyutou does not appeal that much to me.  I have a 9 inch High West chef's knife that is 2.4 mm at the heel.  I'm not sure I would want thinner.  My Wusthof slicer is a 13.5 inch blade and 1.7 mm at the heel.  I very rarely use it.

 

Still leaning toward the 180 mm nikkiri.  My copy of Japanese Cooking Knives should arrive tomorrow.  (And the price went up since I ordered!)

[JoNorvelleWalker]

Having now finished reading Japanese Cooking Knives, it was a book well worth the modest price.  I probably would be better served by a nakiri/nakkiri than an usuba.  Having looked around quite a bit by this time, there are three blades that interest me:

 

http://www.kitchen-knife.jp/pro/nakkiri.htm

 

This is the Watanabe we've been talking about.  If Watanabe took credit cards I think he would have had my yen by now.

 

 

http://www.chefknivestogo.com/kika18na.html

 

The Kato nakiri that was highly regarded earlier in this thread.

 

 

http://www.chefknivestogo.com/nublstna19cu.html

 

This nakiri is longer, thinner, more expensive than the other two -- and made of proprietary steel.  Mystery material and an unnamed artisan does not impart a warm fuzzy feeling.  Nonetheless I find this blade attractive.

 

 

Thoughts?  Anyone have experience with Nubatama or know anything about the steel?  Why is the maker's identity secret, I wonder?  Is he a superhero?  I gather that chefknivestogo is a reputable Japanese knife shop?

[Hassouni]

Nubatama has a few line of well-regarded waterstones, though I don't know about their knives. Chefknivestogo is a very reputable shop - they don't offer bad products - only good, better, and best.

[gfron1]

I bought that Kato Kikiri and love it.  Been using it about a month and its my go to for any heavy duty veg.

[JoNorvelleWalker]

Do I assume correctly that you just went with the default handles for all your knives from chefknivestogo, rather than special order?  I like maple, but the chefknivestogo maple handle doesn't do much for me.  I think I would prefer a darker wood.

 

What do you use upon a less heavy duty vegetable, such as a mushroom?

[gfron1]

For the Nikiri - I went stock handle.  For my other knife I did custom with a Russian Kerilian birch - stunning.  I tend toward my short Fujiwara for small dainty things like mushrooms.

[daveb]

J,

 

The Watanbe would be a fne choice, was not aware that he only accepted PP.  Have you emailed about alternatives?

 

An equally strong choice would be an Itinomonn 180 mm Nakiri from Japanese Natural Stones.  Maksim at JNS is an excellent retailer of both J knives and the stones to maintain them.  This knife comes in at about 150 USD, if you purchase another 10 dollars worth it will get shipped free.

(Tried to post link to no avail)

 

The Kato is a great line of knives though they typically run heavier than their counterparts.  I would be concerned about losing the nimbleness that you're buying a Nakiri for.  And it's 2x the price of very good alternatives.

 

I would not touch any of the Numblychuk products.  Not his knives, not his stones, not his tree stump held together with hose clamps that he uses in his Utubes.    "Blue" Steel and "White" Steel are not adjectives for steel - they describe the color of the paper the steel is wrapped in.  They do have different charactoristics (that go quickly over my head)  "Black" steel reminds me of the "special sauce" used on Mickey D's products.

Edited October 6, 2014 by daveb (log)

[daveb]

Just saw the mushroom question.  I recently took on 4 20# cases of shrooms with my Carter Nakiri.  A perfect match.

[rotuts]

personally, Id bite the bullet and go with the watanabe.   then get your credit card out of pp's data base

 

some credit cards offer a free 'random' number that goes to your account for one purchase only.  Id check.

 

if i go w the 2 watanabe's im interested in Id do it that way.

 

also which such fine knives you have to review your sharpening skills

 

for the extra $$ for the second knive, I'm sure an outstanding knive you could get the EdgePro system

 

its stunning and made my Globals sing, literally

 

and I dont work for W nor EP.

 

let us know your decision.

 

my japanese kitchen knives book is on the way via interlibrary loan

 

Im sure it will push me over the Edge.

 

Edited October 6, 2014 by rotuts (log)

[daveb]

An easy answer may be this "one off" custom from Haburn that he posted yesterday.   170 mm.  I've used knives from Ian and his craftsmanship is outstanding. 

 

.

 

http://www.haburnknives.com/store

[rotuts]

the Japanese Kitchen Knives book is very interesting.

 

its not for everyone, but i learned a lot

 

knowing nothing about single bevel knives, it demonstrates the deba for filleting : pp 150

 

proper technique is just the opposite of what I would have thought :  the flat side of the blade is 'up' and the bevel is down.

[daveb]

I've made the asparagus salad recipe (pg 40) several times - usually using more asparagus than called for.  Very nice, clean salad.  Can be made with Nakiri or thin Gyuto.

 

Both the Yanigiba and Deba technique seem counterintuitive until you've done it a couple times.  I've still a long way to go before I could be called proficient but I'm having fun getting there.

[Hassouni]

For those who have lived in Japan or cook lots of Japanese food - what are common home kitchen knives? I've heard that very few people at home use usuba, and that nakiri are more common. I guess home cooks aren't doing much katsuramuki and sengiri and stuff like that?

[gfron1]

My latest - Konosuke Fujiyama White #1 Kiri/Gyuto 240 with custom handle from ChefKnivesToGo.com. Beautiful work as always and love the extra length on this one. My only negative comment is that I bought it on their Closeout page only to find it back on their regular page two weeks later at the same price.