Japanese Knives – What to Buy?

[bleachboy]

I have the same 10" Shun that Varmint got -- although I hadn't kept up with the blog and it was pure coincidence. I got it about a week ago, and so far it's my favorite knife by a lot. It's ridiculously sharp and seems to hone perfectly. My wife thinks it's too big, though, so I might buy one of the 8" Shuns for her.

I would not hesitate to recommend the 10" Shun Kershaw.

[johnnyd]

BBoy,

Yup! They are sharp! Mine is the 6.5, and I screwed up the second day (see above). I can't imagine the ten-spot without a serious breaking-in phase to adjust habits, heft and hold.

[sassybat]

i bought a 9" slicer for the SO (he loves making sushi), and he adores the knife. it's his favorite knife in the whole kitchen. but now he's afraid of sharpening it because he doesn't want to ruin that perfectly straight edge....

[johnnyd]

I have suffered the same anxiety but found the solution:

If he's a sushi fan, you have a favorite sushi bar. Next time you go, bring the Shun with you and, on one knee (or both), ask the least busiest chef to sharpen it for you while you consume vast quantities of their tasty wares. Profuse apologies with a hint of shinto respect will surely add bonus points.

G'sai!

[Chad]

i bought a 9" slicer for the SO (he loves making sushi), and he adores the knife. it's his favorite knife in the whole kitchen. but now he's afraid of sharpening it because he doesn't want to ruin that perfectly straight edge.... 

You might want to read and print out our very own eGullet Culinary Institute course Knife Maintenance & Sharpening. It's a pretty good introduction to the mechanics and art of knife sharpening. There's a wealth of information to be found throughout the eGCI.

Take care,

Chad

[Schielke]

Could some friendly moderator change the header on this thread to say Shun from Shen.

Ben

[theakston]

I recently purchased the Kershaw Santoku with Scalloped Blade - Shun Classic. It's a great all round knife, but I'm wondering how best to sharpen this style of knife with the scallop edge? Any advice?

[johnnyd]

Chad,

What a piece! Well done. I was most struck by this:

If you don’t use a steeled edge right away it can actually relax back into its blunted state. The same is true of a blunted edge. If you really degrade the edge of your knife in a heavy cutting session, let it sit overnight before sharpening. It will be in much better shape than it was the day before.

I just KNEW they were living and breathing! I learned some freehand back in the day on a three sided oily thang but can't afford that rig. Your article has shown me alternatives w/in my reach.

Before I got my new 8"Wust, I looked in the phone book and found a promising solution to the broken tip on my old 8"W: "Never a Dull Moment" said he'd grind away the broken tip and re-align the edge... for five bucks. I should have stopped there. It came back with a helacious edge and off-balance, but hey, it's unique! Who else has a 7 and 7/16" Chef's??? (Sorry, I'm new here... (looks around furtively)... there, um, might actually BE people with such an abomination around these parts!)

When I got my Shun, it was so beautiful I couldn't quite trust myself to sharpen it myself, and my local sushi bar guys are "honored" that I would allow them the task of honing it for me. I repay them with repeat plates of Toro, Aji, Uni and Men-Taiko, and anything else they throw at me...

[PoorLawyer]

Can you hone these knives with a regular old steel, or do you need a fancy ceramic one or something? also, do you hone it the same way as a German knife even though the blade is shaped differently?

[bleachboy]

I use an F. Dick multicut on mine, and it works great. It's not really a "regular old steel" but AFAIK it's made of the same general materialls as a regular old steel.

[Human Bean]

Woohoo! I just got a Shun 10" chefs knife. It certainly feels and looks awesome; no reason to think it won't work just as well, but time will tell.

I've done 95% of my everyday cutting with a 7" stainless Chinese cleaver, which is also awesome though without much aesthetic value, and had considered a good chef's knife for awhile to see how it might substitute for the ol' reliable cleaver. Even though the knife is made in Japan, Kershaw (the importer) is local (Oregon), and they're sponsoring Caprial's (Oregon chef) latest PBS show, so local chauvinism suggested I give it a try.

I wasn't going to buy a knife without being able to handle it first (note below about Global) and I found a local retailer that had the knives (at full retail price, grrrr), but I'd pay the premium over mail-order since actually being able to try the knife for fit before purchase is more important than getting the best price.

I got the 8" chefs knife, brought it home, and decided it was too small, even though it was longer than any everyday knife I'd used before. The 10" seems like a winner, even though it also seems huge at the moment. Mathematically, it doesn't seem like two inches would make much difference, but it really does.

I don't consider out-of-the box sharpness as particularly important; a good sharpener makes it irrelevant. Nonetheless, it was quite sharp as shipped, but will still probably take a ride on the Edgepro. (Knife geek stuff: readily shaved hair and the rubber band test had at least two pieces on the first try, one piece (cut the rubber band) on a second and third try. The guy at the store decided to slice a piece of paper at the store to demonstrate it's sharpness; ugh! Cutting paper is hard on an edge, but I guess it impresses the rubes).

While I was at the store, I tried a Global 10" knife, since they also had those. It didn't seem to fit my hand quite right in a pinch grip, and the handle seemed slippery (the slippery handle seems to be a common criticism of the Global knives; I could possibly overlook that if it weren't for the fact that it just didn't feel right in my hand). Sigh; I still prefer any Japanese knife I've tried to any of the German ones; definitely a case of YMMV.

[Smithy]

I couldn't resist these when I spotted them in TJ Maxx last week. I liked the feel, the look, and the price ($13 each). While I can't exactly say I need them, they are different than any of my other knives and will fill small niches in my knife collection.

The handles are simple wood. The shorter knife has more heft and is beveled on one side only; I think it will lend itself well to chopping items that don't need a full-blown cleaver. The longer blade has a nice balance and seems more suited to fine dicing or slicing due to its lack of heft.

For scale, here's the shorter one in hand:

The instructions on the back are entirely in Japanese, and I can't read a word of it. I am entertained by the instruction that appears to be saying you can use these as a hammer..

Note the sharpening instructions and the angles of these blades. Pretty fine angle, huh?

Finally, here's a partial list of the knives this manufacturer offers:

So, now that I have these inexpensive beauties, what have I purchased? What does that hammer instruction *really* show? Am I inferring the correct blade angles from the diagram for sharpening?

Any advice, comments and translations will be welcome.

[johnsmith45678]

I am entertained by the instruction that appears to be saying you can use these as a hammer.. 

What does that hammer instruction *really* show? 

←

I don't know what to make of that either. Staking vampires? Or maybe it's to pound the handle further onto the blade, if it's loose, and if that's how they're constructed. Otherwise, beats me.

[david coonce]

I think the hammer thing is showing how to reattach the blade. These cheap Japanese sushi-style knives always have that problem - the blades aren't full tang (i.e., they don't run the length of the handle), and the only way the blade is attached to the handle is to simply insert it in the middle. Anyone who has ever used Joyce Chen sushi knives knows what I'm talking about. It's annoying, because once the blade comes out the first time, it never really goes back in for good. I have a couple Chen blades hanging out somewhere in my kitchen;, I have no idea what happened to the handles.

The hammer "solution" shown on the packaging seems like it might really hurt the blade, but at $13 bucks, I bet those blades aren't going to stay sharp for very long anyway, so it's no matter.

When it comes to kitchen knives, sadly, you really do get what you pay for.

Anyway, you asked what these are good for - obviously, sushi and sashimi are the best bets, and if you only use them for those, the blades might stay sharp for a good long while (never run them through a dishwasher!). You are correct that those blade angles are the right ones for sharpening, but don't worry if you can't seem to get them sharp - cheaper knives are generally hard to get and stay sharp because they're made of inferior metal. Like I said, if you use them everyday they're going to get dull in a hurry.

Edited March 25, 2007 by david coonce (log)

[Jon Savage]

You are correct that those blade angles are the right ones for sharpening, but don't worry if you can't seem to get them sharp - cheaper knives are generally hard to get and stay sharp because they're made of inferior metal. Like I said, if you use them everyday they're going to get dull in a hurry.

←

We have several of these in the same price range. Been using them for years and they sharpen up nicely. Used one yesterday (a longish sushi knife) and the duck prosciutto was almost see through.

[Octaveman]

You bought what most Asian grocery stores carry. They are worth what you paid so don't expext a whole lot from them. The smaller one is a Deba and is used for more heavy duty work. You could use it to seperate chickens at the joint or you can use it to break down whole fish. I'ts not tough enough to go through the bigger bones of a chicken but ribs will be okay. You could also use it to take the meat off the bones too. While it's not ideally a boning knife you could use it that way.

The longer knife looks more like a typical Japanese boning knife. The Honesuki as it's called can either take on a straight/flat profile or slightly curved like yours. I'd have to see it in person to determine if it really is a boning knife but it probably should not be used to go through the ribs...just for taking meat off bones. I'm sure you could use it for smaller prep type jobs too. What ever you want to use it for, really.

Sushi is not what these knives are for. I wouldn't use either one for making slices of sashimi or slicing the rolls. You can use them any way you'd like because if they get damaged, oh well, throw them out. They're not work the cost of sharpening/repairing.

What the hammer picture is showing is how to put the handle back on or to make it more secure should it come loose. Handles on very cheap knives will come loose and to tighten them you hold the knife and strike the handle forcing the blade into the handle. This is the way all traditional handles on these knives are put on whether they cost $15 or $1,500. The rat-tail tang (not a full tang) as it's called is not a design flaw. It's made this way on purpose to make replacing of handles easy.

The first page of the instructions talk about use and care. The second page is how to sharpen and the third is showing all the different styles.

If you really want a bargain in a Japanese knife take a look at these. They are the Tosagata brand and for the money you get really good knives for a super cheap price. They are rough around the edges (no pun) but I'll tell ya, the blades are really good and they are sturdy knives. The Satsuma knife is a new one they started offering and looks like a great prep knife. The Atsu Deba is super tough. I have the small chopping knife and it's done a great job so far.

Anyway, use your knives until they fall apart and throw them out. Just keep in mind that they don't represent a good value nor quality Japanese blades.

Cheers,

Bob

[Smithy]

You bought what most Asian grocery stores carry.  They are worth what you paid so don't expext a whole lot from them. 

....

Anyway, use your knives until they fall apart and throw them out.  Just keep in mind that they don't represent a good value nor quality Japanese blades.

←

Thanks for that, as well as the intervening information elided from the quote. I figured that they weren't especially high-quality, but what the heck - I was on holiday, I needed better cooking knives than the rental place provided, and these struck me as being perfect traveling equipment:

- inexpensive

- unusual (for me) and therefore interesting

- sharp, at least for the nonce, and

- having that certain jais ne sais quois . The French say it best, even about Japanese cutlery.

These knives did right away have an aura of "camp box!" - which says something about their quality - but for now I'll enjoy them at home, even as last week I enjoyed them on vacation. At the moment they have good edges and a good feeling to the hand.

More comments and insight are welcome, of course! For example: given that these aren't especially high-quality, will the shape and balance give me a clue as to whether good Japanese knives would be helpful to my style of cookery? At present my good knives (don't you dare snicker) are Chicago Cutlery, Lampsonsharp, at least one Henckels and *randommumblefamilyheirlooms*.

[david coonce]

You bought what most Asian grocery stores carry. They are worth what you paid so don't expext a whole lot from them.

.

More comments and insight are welcome, of course! For example: given that these aren't especially high-quality, will the shape and balance give me a clue as to whether good Japanese knives would be helpful to my style of cookery? At present my good knives (don't you dare snicker) are Chicago Cutlery, Lampsonsharp, at least one Henckels and *randommumblefamilyheirlooms*.

←

If you're used to the ones you cite then this may not be your cup of tea, but my "go-to" knife is a Japanese 8" chef's knife from Global. It's fairly expensive, but the blade is razor sharp and holds an edge forever. I've had it 4 years and had it professionally sharpened once. It's one piece of metal so there's no concern about the handle coming out or whatever. The one caveat I have about it is that it is ultra-light. Some chefs are put off by that - while it makes for great filleting/boning, etc, there's a serious mental block when it comes to cutting through a bone or some other tough piece. It also doesn't have a bolster, which is great for when it's being sharpened (you don't get the "notch" near the bolster like you would with Henckels and Wusthofs) but the top edge of the blade is really narrow, and so if you hold the knife like I hold it, where the top edge burrows into my pointer finger, you get a really gnarly callous. I'm a professional chef so I don't mind, but for someone who doesn't use a knife 50 hours a week the edge might be irritating.

There is a line of Japanese knives made in a similar style to the ones in your post made by Kershaw under the brand name Shun that are really great quality. Very expensive though more expensive than the Global. But absolutely indestructible and razor sharp. If you find that you love these TJ Maxx knives and want to make an investment in a higher-quality knife in that style, I would say that is your best bet.

And don't be ashamed of your family heirloom knives! My father-in-law has a knife he got from his mother - he doesn't cook at all, and the first time I visited (Thanksgiving) I was looking for a sharp knife, and he pulled out this tiny little version of a butcher's cleaver, and it was absolutely a perfect knife. It was probably made in 1935. It's the knife I use whenever I go up to visit them now.

[Octaveman]

Smithy, they'd make great camping knives. Using them won't give you insight into whether Japanese knives will be good for your style of cooking. This is because these are traditional Japanese shapes. This means they are single beveled very much unlike your current set of knives.

Without going into what is appropriate I suggest you look around at the websites below. I have ordered many knives from these people and they have a very good selection of knives. The main western style Japanese knives you should consider are the Gyuto, Boning knife (if you bone chickens), a petty and a bread knife slash roast slicer. First thing you will notice is that the shapes are very similar to your current knives yet are different too. Another thing that seperates them from their Euro counterparts is the steel. These differences are huge when it comes to performance and quality and durability and how long they stay sharp. I used to use Henckles until Sept 04 when I bought my first Gyuto. I gave those Henckels away and use Japanse knives exclusivly. Look around and see what you find. Ask away if you have questions.

http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/DPSwdenS...ndleSeries.html

http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/TenmiJyurakuSeries.html

http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/KANETSUGU.html

http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/RYUSEN.html

http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/UX10Series.html

http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/VGSeries.html

[Hiroyuki]

Other people have already answered your "hammer" question correctly.

The longer one is gyuto, and the shorter one is deba.

[Carlovski]

I'be bought knives from TK Maxx (British Name for TJ Maxx - apparently so as to avoid confusion with another chanin called T.J Hughes) before - I hate going in the place but the one near me has the cookware section on the ground floor, and near the door so i occasionally pop in. I bought myself a sort of hybrid santoku knife (Santoku blade, but full tang and a more 'western' handle ) which I use all the time (Needs a lot of sharpening though) and a more traditional one which I gave as a wedding present (I know, bad luck in a lot of cultures, but he didn't mind!) which they use all the time - just very carefully (They were used to blunt knife block style knives before)

[paulraphael]

Octaveman suggested that I write about my entry into the world of Japanese knives. I decided to wait until I had a bit of experience, including learning how to sharpen. It's now been several weeks and my one Japanese knife has spawned a couple of siblings.

Background, prejudices, etc.:

By nature I'm not a collector, and tend to find a good, all purpose tool, and use it to death. I'd used various low and middle end European style knives over the years before upgrading to a Schaaf Goldhamster chef's knife about five years ago. This knife wowed me every time I used it, and I used it for everything from mincing herbs to slicing roasts to hacking apart chickens. In the years I owned it I sharpened it on stones once; frequent steeling kept it sharp enough to shave with. Nevertheless, all the recent noise about Japanese knife nirvana got under my skin, and curiousity got the better of me.

After a mind-numbing amount of research and discussion with the sociopaths at knifeforums.com, I decided to try a Hiromoto AS gyuto in the 240mm length. This knife has been getting a reputation as an excellent value. It has a very hard, high end carbon steel edge, clad on both sides with stainless. It's available directly from Japan for $130 from Japanesechefsknife.com. Their service and shipping are outstanding.

Out of the box, the knife stuck me as light (but not feather light), slim, and nimble, in spite of being an inch and a half longer than what I'm used to. Fit and finish were not quite up to the standard of the German knife, but the blemishes (mostly around the handle) were easily touched up with sandpaper. In use, going back and forth between it and my german knife, it felt sharper but not dramatically so. On a scale of one to ten, one being a butter knife and ten being Star Wars light saber, the Hiromoto felt like and 8 and the Schaaf a 7.

This is where learning to sharpen came in. I bought the sharpening DVD from Korin.com, which is good for the basics. I also read tons online, and finally decided to start out with the so-called scary sharp system, which uses silicon carbide sandpaper mounted to glass, rather than using water stones. This mimics the way stones work, and while it's expensive in the long run, the intitial investment is much lower than with good water stones. I also purchased a horsehide strop from handamerican.com, which works with half-micron chrome oxide abrasive powder.

The learning curve was pretty easy. I'm still a beginner, but find it straightforward to get a good edge on the blade without destroying it (so far).

Needless to say, this is already more investment in time and gear that I ever would have imagined for maintaining a knife! I've now spent close to the cost of my German knife in tools and educational materials, just for taking care of the Japanese knife--and this is without having invested in real stones.

An advantage is that I can tune the edge to perform the exactly the way I like. The hard carbon steel can handle angles anywhere from the 15 degree (on each side) factory angle to a scalpel-like 5 degrees. The tradeoff is fragility. The sharper angles make a chip-prone edge that needs to be babied more than I'm probably willing. What I've ended up doing is leaving the factory angles on most of the knife, but thinning the three inches near the tip to 20 or so degrees. This allows it to slip easily through onions and hard garlic cloves when push-cutting the vertical cuts, but keeps the chopping edge stout.

Even at the factory angles, this is not intended to be a heavy duty, all-purpose knife. Anything hard or tough that can grab the edge is capable of chipping it. If I need to hack up a bird or chop chocolate, or hand a knife to someone not used to treating it like a surgical tool, out comes the German knife.

So now, with the refined edge and mirror polish from the strop, the performance is considerably better than it was out of the box. It slips effortlessly through anything, if you can get some forward or backward motion to the blade. It really likes to slice. It does less damage to the food than any knife I've used. An apple sliced with the Hiromoto will not brown, even after 45 minutes. It doesn't bruise herbs. It goes through onions silently (none of that telltale crunching sound). It's so easy to slice things to transparent thinness that I have to remind myself no to.

After experiencing all this, I expected the German knife to feel clumsy in comparison. But remarkably it doesn't. I'm amazed that this thing with the factory angles and minimal maintenance can come so close. It does all the things the Hiromoto does, just not quite as well. Sometimes the German knife requires effort. If the Japanese knife does, it means I'm doing something wrong. Conversely, the German knife does things that the Japanese one can't, or at least shouldn't.

In the end, the Hiromoto has become my main knife, and the Schaaf gets used more for the heavy cutting. The best thing I can say about the Hiromoto is that it makes prep work fun. Time will tell if this is still the case after the New Toy Mania wears off.

I would heartily recommend this knife, but only to someone willing to invest in learning to sharpen and maintain it. And it's a big investment, in both time and tools, compared with what you need for a softer, thicker knife. The advantage of the Japanese blade lies partly in its geometry, but largely in its ability to take and hold whatever edge that you give it. This advantage is lost if you're not playing an active role in its tuning and upkeep. These are sports cars, not family sedans. Choose acording to your disposition!

Before I stop rambling, I want to mention the other two knives I bought. One is a Mac 270mm bread knife. This thing is wonderful. For $60, it's the first good bread knife I've ever used. It cuts the bread, rather than crushing it or sawing it into a pile of crumbs. When it needs sharpening, though, I'll have to send it to a pro. Luckily It's not getting hammered on every day. The other is a 3" Al Mar chef series paring knife. This is the first paring knife I've ever liked. I had a Schaaf, but unlike the Schaaf chef's knife I never cared for the parer. It didn't fit right in my hand, and I could never get it razor sharp the way I want a paring knife to be. The Al Mar, in spite of being from their inexpensive line, takes a sharp edge easily. I put a very thin, very asymetrical bevel on it, and it holds up fine ... not surprising, since a paring knife spends little time banging into a cutting board. This knife was $50 well spent.

[budrichard]

Your Hiromoto AS gyuto is not of Japanese traditional sandwich construction and blade profile. A traditional Japanese blade has only a single bevel and there are some cutting techniques that cannot be performed without this style of blade. Your blade is western style and of single material construction from the on-line source i looked at.

I am currently using this source http://www.shop.niimi.okayama.jp/kajiya/en/index_e.html and have four of his blades at the present. Takeda comes to the Chicago Custom Knife Show each year and brings what i order. BTW, His sharpening system is the best i have ever used.

I started with a commercial Yanagi of sandwich construction which is very sharp. As time progressed, i ordered, using Murray Carter as a broker when he resided in Japan, a Honyaki from a top Japanese smith, forged of Hitachi # 1 white steel with ebony/ivory with silver inlay, it is the pinnacle of Japanese blade making but its price precludes me from ordering another!

I had Takeda make me a similar blade and the performnce is about the same.

Your Schaff from the information I could locate is stainless steel(actually think it is Hi carbon Stainless) which yield very sharp blades but are really no match for traditional Japanese blades.

If you want to try traditional Japanese style knives, i think you will find them the sharpest of all blades available as i have.-Dick

Edited November 20, 2007 by budrichard (log)

[paulraphael]

Hiromoto AS Tenmi-Jyuraku series:

http://japanesechefsknife.com/TenmiJyuraku...HEIGHT:%20187px

It's a sandwich of Hitachi Aogami Super steel, clad with soft stainless steel.

You're right that it's not a traditional Japanese knife. This wasn't meant as a review of those, since they're intended primarily for Japanese style cooking. I don't have much use for a single bevel knife and am not interested in the traditional handle style.

The Hiromoto is considered a "western style" Japanese knife, which is confusing, because what they really mean is a western-inspired shape with Japanese refinements, made with Japanese steel and blade geometry. It is different in a number of ways from a European style knife: The blade is thinner, the belly is shallower, the bevel angles are more acute, the bevel is asymetrical (though still two-sided) and the steel is harder. It can be made as sharp as any double bevel knife; the limit is how much edge fragility you're willing to suffer.

Edited November 21, 2007 by paulraphael (log)

[logicalmind]

I have had a similar experience to you with japanese knives. I had used victorinox chef's knives for a long time and had them sent out to be sharpened. But when I finally broke down to buy a japanese knife (a MAC btw) I also decided to buy sharpening stones and learn to do the sharpening myself(with help from the korin dvd). Luckily I was able to initially practice on my victorinox knives, which need much more frequent sharpenings. I'm really glad I took the plunge and got a japanese knive and learned to sharpen it myself.