The Ontology of the Shun Ken Onion Chef's Knife

[mrsadm]

I have lots of wonderful Japanese knives and believe in keeping things simple. I use a ceramic rod for honing and a waterstone for sharpening. A knife block or the special holder that comes with the knife should both work well to protect the blade between uses.

As someone else said, USE your knife and enjoy it. I know, I know, they are so precious and I do admit I have one beautiful knife I have never used - but mostly the beauty of a knife is in how it works and how wonderfully easier it makes cooking for you. Even damage can be repaired by someone like Epicurian edge. GO FOR IT!

[mrsadm]

One thing to note: the suminagashi (faux Damascus) cladding on the outside is very soft. When you use the Edge Pro, tape the sides of the blade with blue painter's tape to keep the grit and swarf from scratching up the pattern.

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Chad, I am not familiar with faux Damascus. Do all Shun knives feature this?

[snowangel]

I have big hands, too, and find the grip on that Shun perfect for me.

Does anyone keep their Shun knives on a magnetic strip?

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I do! I knife block is not an option in our house at the present time because of space and one of the kids. But, I am careful about how I put the knives onto and take them off the strip.

I should note that mine is a Sun santoku, not the onion.

[Chad]

One thing to note: the suminagashi (faux Damascus) cladding on the outside is very soft. When you use the Edge Pro, tape the sides of the blade with blue painter's tape to keep the grit and swarf from scratching up the pattern.

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Chad, I am not familiar with faux Damascus. Do all Shun knives feature this?

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Nope. The Shun Classic line does as does the Hattori HD line and the Ryusen standard knives. All of these knives have an inner core of VG-10 steel covered with an outer jacket made up of 16 layers of softer stainless steel that have been folded and welded into a lovely pattern of swirls and waves called suminigashi or “ink pattern” because it resembles an ancient Japanese paper decorating technique of the same name where drops of ink were carefully dripped into still water and blown into swirls. It is primarily decorative.

True Damascus steel was part of a middle eastern sword making technique from the 1100s. Today's Damascus is generally pattern welded steel -- two or more types of steel forge welded together, drawn out and folded and refolded into hundreds of layers. The blade is etched to bring out the pattern. The layered steel actually makes up the whole thickness of the blade rather than being a decorative jacket like the laminated suminagashi knives.

This is a 10" Shun Classic chef's knife.

This is a 270mm Hattori HD gyuto with a custom handle.

Both of them have decorative suminagashi jackets. Marketing folks call it Damascus because more people are familiar with that term.

This is a real Damascus (at least the way we define it today) custom Murray Carter knife.

To bring this back to the original topic, the Ken Onion knife has the softer suminagashi jacket. It scuffs very easily, so when sharpening it's best to tape up the sides of the blade so they don't get scratched.

Chad

[dougal]

Chad - would it be correct to infer from your post that 'true Damascus' is very rare indeed, and that the vast majority of product described as 'Damascus' should be more accurately described as 'suminagashi"?

And that all such decoration needs especially considerate treatment?

[Chad]

Chad - would it be correct to infer from your post that 'true Damascus' is very rare indeed, and that the vast majority of product described as 'Damascus' should be more accurately described as 'suminagashi"?

And that all such decoration needs especially considerate treatment?

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It's certainly rare in kitchen knives. There is, however, a thriving community of custom knife makers who either forge Damascus for daggers, hunters and collectible knives or purchase the ready made steel from somebody like Devin Thomas, the modern master of pattern welded Damascus steel. Click on the "Products" link to see some of the amazing patterns.

ABS Mastersmith Kevin Cashen is one of the more notable knife makers who forges his own pattern welded damascus.

Like the Ken Onion knife, almost all laminated blades will have softer steel on the sides. In theory this gives the harder (and more brittle) core some protection and needed flexibility. It also leaves the sides vulnerable to scratches and scuffs. For folks who own Shun, Hattori or Ryusen knives that have become scratched, Dave Martell at D&R Sharpening/Japanese Knife Sharpening offers a polish and re-etching service that can return a scratched or worn suminagashi/damascus surface to better than new condition.

Chad

[Porthos]

I was at the Los Angeles County Fair last night and saw some (what I believe to be) mass-produced knives that the mfg has put the "Damsascus" pattern onto. I could be wrong but since I have a friend who collects custom daggers and knives and have seen the real McCoy up close I doubt the knives I saw were anything more than some line of their knives with the pattern etched in. They didn't really match what I saw on display for Shun or Global at my local W-S (which I like to walk through but very rarely actually buy anything from). If anyone knows of a reputable US mfg of the real thing then please let me know. At this point I am only "Highly Suspicious" of what I saw rather than confident of my observations.

Chris, you've picked out a beautiful knife.

edited to correct my poor english...

Edited September 14, 2007 by Porthos (log)

[WiscoNole]

I went to the knife store today (Warren Cutlery in Rhinebeck, NY, about 20 min. north of CIA). I intended on just looking around, but who was I kidding? Every time I go there I leave with a new knife. I thought of this thread and checked out the KO 8" chef's, which had already been on my mind before reading this thread. I found the the blade was too curvey for me. To get the heel of the blade flush with the board, I had to rock the blade farther than my normal motion. I immediately pictured strings of chives cut 9/10 of the way through. After this slight letdown, I asked the see the KO 5" utility since I was actually in the market for a new petty knife. I fell in love immediately. Perfect blade shape, light as a feather, good knuckle clearance, and of course extremely comfortable. After a 10% student discount and $136, I am the proud owner of one of these:

Shallots of the world, LOOK OUT!

[Abra]

The KO is made for rocking and that's just what I do...oops, sorry. It's a rocker's dream knife.

[WiscoNole]

The KO is made for rocking and that's just what I do...oops, sorry.  It's a rocker's dream knife.

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Who doesn't rock, besides the same people who hold the knife by the end of the handle?

[Chad]

The KO is made for rocking and that's just what I do...oops, sorry.  It's a rocker's dream knife.

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Who doesn't rock, besides the same people who hold the knife by the end of the handle?

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<raises hand>

I don't. I use more Japanese-style push cuts. It's more precise. Rocking is great if you've got a ton o' prep to bang out for a busy restaurant, but for a serious home cook who doesn't have the time pressure of a prep cook or for a chef going for high level presentation, push cuts make more sense.

Chad

[Chris Amirault]

Abra is right, however: if you rock, the KO rocks (and santokus don't rock). One more reason I'm eager.

[Octaveman]

I don't get it. Well, I mean I get some of the attraction to this knife because it looks cool and it comes with it's own stand to cover up even more valuable counter space. What I don't get is that people are willing to spend more money for this design when the Shun Classic Chef has essentially the same rocking profile if not more of a rocking profile. If you put these knives side by side or even on top one another, you can see the difference in the edge profile. One could argue that the picture below shows the classic sitting on it's heal and the KO is resting in front of the heal. Well, okay, then move it back to rest on it's heal and then notice where the tip would be...pretty much exactly where the Classic is.

So, is the KO worth an extra $80+ for the illusion of a better rocker? Take the classic blade shape and make a few design mods to the spine, change the handle and add a massive bolster and you have the KO.

The handle design is not condusive to the proper way of pinch gripping a knife. Matter of fact with the bolster designed the way it is I don't think you'd be able to use a pinch grip. To use the tip for various things you'd have to raise the handle end pretty high to get the tip flat on the board for your cuts. Too many things are functionally wrong with this knife that I can't recommend it to anyone. I have little problem recommending Shun knives in general just not the KO design. Besides, as a serious Japanese blade user, I have aboslutely NO problems rocking with any gyuto I've used and own so I just don't get why people feel that an edge with such a huge curve is a good thing. Just a few thoughts for what they're worth.

[melkor]

So, is the KO worth an extra $80+ for the illusion of a better rocker?  Take the classic blade shape and make a few design mods to the spine, change the handle and add a massive bolster and you have the KO. 

The handle design is not condusive to the proper way of pinch gripping a knife.  Matter of fact with the bolster designed the way it is I don't think you'd be able to use a pinch grip.  To use the tip for various things you'd have to raise the handle end pretty high to get the tip flat on the board for your cuts.  Too many things are functionally wrong with this knife that I can't recommend it to anyone.  I have little problem recommending Shun knives in general just not the KO design.  Besides, as a serious Japanese blade user, I have aboslutely NO problems rocking with any gyuto I've used and own so I just don't get why people feel that an edge with such a huge curve is a good thing.  Just a few thoughts for what they're worth.

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I'm with ya, the KO knives are the knife equivalent of monster cables - sure they work, but no better than a lot of other things that cost half as much.

[Chris Amirault]

So, is the KO worth an extra $80+ for the illusion of a better rocker?  Take the classic blade shape and make a few design mods to the spine, change the handle and add a massive bolster and you have the KO. 

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Beats me if it's $80 better, since I'm getting mine for free. But it seems that the characteristics you list -- design changes to the spine, handle, and bolster -- have a big effect on balance, feel, and grip, which aren't trivial components of a knife. As a big-mitted lefty, I'm far more comfortable this grip, for example, than I've been with any other knife.

edited for clarity --ca

Edited September 19, 2007 by chrisamirault (log)

[melkor]

Beats me if it's $80 better, since I'm getting mine for free. But it seems that the characteristics you list -- design changes to the spine, handle, and bolster -- have a big effect on balance, feel, and grip, which aren't trivial components of a knife. As a big-mitted lefty, I'm far more comfortable this grip, for example, than I've been with any other knife.

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It's impossible to beat free. I'm a ham fisted right hander, the most important thing is how the knife feels in your hand. You can put an incredibly sharp edge on a $7 Chicago cutlery knife from target, but it'll need to be sharpened before every use. The real difference between knives is feel and edge durability. As long as you know how to care for your knives and they fit your hand, you're all set.

[WiscoNole]

The KO is made for rocking and that's just what I do...oops, sorry.  It's a rocker's dream knife.

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Who doesn't rock, besides the same people who hold the knife by the end of the handle?

←

<raises hand>

I don't. I use more Japanese-style push cuts. It's more precise. Rocking is great if you've got a ton o' prep to bang out for a busy restaurant, but for a serious home cook who doesn't have the time pressure of a prep cook or for a chef going for high level presentation, push cuts make more sense.

Chad

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I meant that most people rock at some point.

[Kouign Aman]

Have you built the pyre of sacrificial paring knives, with which to properly welcome the beast to your home?

[WiscoNole]

I don't get it.  Well, I mean I get some of the attraction to this knife because it looks cool and it comes with it's own stand to cover up even more valuable counter space.  What I don't get is that people are willing to spend more money for this design when the Shun Classic Chef has essentially the same rocking profile if not more of a rocking profile.  If you put these knives side by side or even on top one another, you can see the difference in the edge profile.  One could argue that the picture below shows the classic sitting on it's heal and the KO is resting in front of the heal.  Well, okay, then move it back to rest on it's heal and then notice where the tip would be...pretty much exactly where the Classic is.

So, is the KO worth an extra $80+ for the illusion of a better rocker?  Take the classic blade shape and make a few design mods to the spine, change the handle and add a massive bolster and you have the KO. 

The handle design is not condusive to the proper way of pinch gripping a knife.  Matter of fact with the bolster designed the way it is I don't think you'd be able to use a pinch grip.  To use the tip for various things you'd have to raise the handle end pretty high to get the tip flat on the board for your cuts.  Too many things are functionally wrong with this knife that I can't recommend it to anyone.  I have little problem recommending Shun knives in general just not the KO design.  Besides, as a serious Japanese blade user, I have aboslutely NO problems rocking with any gyuto I've used and own so I just don't get why people feel that an edge with such a huge curve is a good thing.  Just a few thoughts for what they're worth.

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If I'm not mistaken, the Classic is a double bevel and the KO is a single bevel. And to me, even in that picture, that heel of the blade of the KO curves back up towards the handle slightly, whereas the Classic heel straightens out more. I'm not just arguing for the sake of arguing, I tried them side by side Monday afternoon.

[Abra]

Also, the curve on the top surface of the KO fits perfectly if you want to lean into the rock a little. And the handle feels better in my hand than any knife ever has, and yes, I do pinch it all the way down. I don't use the tip much, I'll give you that, but I think that's more a lack of knife skills on my part than anything specific to the knife itself.

[Chris Amirault]

Well, it's been a while, and I'm now in a bit of a dilemma that I mentioned over in this discussion of nakiri knives. I mentioned,

In re sharpening the Shun, I haven't been able to find reliable bevel measurements for sharpening that KO chef's knife, and apparently the Shun folks aren't too keen on sharing. If someone has that information, please PM me off this topic. Thanks!

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To which I got a few replies, which can be summed up as, "Just sharpen the damned thing." So I think I'll be moving forward with the Edge Pro sometime soon. But there's no need to push me. Really. Thanks.

Meanwhile, the KO Shun chef's knife is a regular part of my rotation. I still am a bit particular about it: it sits on its little throne above the rolling cart in the kitchen, not on the magnetic strip with the rest of the knives.

Anyone else want to fess up about their Ken Onions?

[Human Bean]

I was at my local kitchenware boutique last week to look for new / different Shuns, and the shopkeeper more-or-less insisted that I try the KO. I'd always thought it looked weird and uncomfortable, but to my surprise, it was utterly comfortable in a pinch grip and the balance was perfect.

I didn't buy it though; I don't happen to need anything like it at the moment. It seems that my cleaver will be my general purpose go-to knife forever, and I'm okay with that.

[paulraphael]

I was at a kitchen store last week wherea a Shun rep was showing off knives. He gave me an 8" Ken Onion and let me prep some veggies.

It is unquestionably the stupidist knife I've ever gotten my paws on. It's one of these designs that caters to the flawed techniques of people who haven't learned how to use something properly.

Deep belly for rocking? With the exception for cutting certain leafy herbs, this is a technique designed to compensate for knives that aren't sharp.

Big broad rounded spine? This facilitates pushing hard; also something never done by someone with a sharp knife and good technique.

"Ergonomic" handle? this facilitates holding the knife in a way prefered by people who don't know how to hold a knife.

I thought the Shun was a disaster in every category! It was not useable with any of the refined tequniques I've fought hard to learn over the years.

[Chris Amirault]

I'm not sure how a knife can be stupid, and the wide variety of styles out there would suggest that different people have different needs. There are lots of different ways, for example, for someone to hold a knife, and facilitating one over another is a design decision, not an acknowledgment of ineptitude.

In addition, as someone who has mastered most classic chef knife techniques, I can say that there are times when I appreciate the thinner, smaller blade to my larger old boys. Variety, spice of life, all that.

[manton]

I have two Shun knives, both from the Elite line: one is a 10" chefs, the other is a 3.5" paring.

The knives have managed to stay exceptionally sharp (with frequent use of the steel). After about a year, I noticed that they were finally beginning to feel dull. Inspired by a class I took at the FCI, I bought the Shun 1000/6000 waterstone. The instructors at school said that with practice you can hear and feel the right angle for sharpening the knife. They demoed it several times, and let us all try.

When I got my own stone, I was nervous about it, but it has proved to be surprisingly easy to use.

Also, FWIW, a houseguest bent the tip of my parer. I sent it back to Shun, asking that the tip be reground, and the sent me a whole new knife! They take "lifetime warranty" quite seriously, it appears.

Edited December 4, 2008 by manton (log)