Cake rise

[Dave Hatfield]

At the risk of being labelled heretic on this forum I'd like to raise a cooking question and solicit advice from it's knowledgeable members.

Yesterday I attempted to make a carrot cake. This was to be sold at a charitable vide grenier in our village. Naturally, as it was an American dish made by am American I wanted it to be as good as possible so as to not look bad to our French neighbours.

Although by no means a disaster the cake did not rise nearly as high as I would have expected it to. It did rise, but each of the layers was somewhere between 1/2 & 1 inch flatter than I thought it should have been. (taste was fine, but it was denser than it should have been.)

I don't make a lot of cakes, but I have noticed that whenever I do they don't rise to their full 'potential' I also note that French cakes in general don't seem to be as high or light as American ones.

I used French cake flour & added both baking powered & baking soda (this was the passover carrot cake recipe on recipe Gullet) and followed the recipe faithfully.

Any ideas? Does anybody else have the same problem?

Secondary question: I'm running out of both baking powder & baking soda and I don't see either of them in the local hypermarket. Where can I find them?

[Felice]

Dave, I think the flour was your problem but hopefully Ptipois will give us more information. Most people recommend using '65' type flour and there is a great thread HERE which discusses where to find various ingredients. At the begining you will find a link to David Leibowitz's blog which has great information.

[Ptipois]

I never use "cake" flour but, as often as I can, organic 65-type flour, which raises beautifully with the help of baking powder, or baking soda, or just whipped egg whites. There is something evil about French cake flour, I don't know why, but it should be rechristened "flattening agent".

[Ptipois]

As for the secondary question, the answer is easy: baking powder is called "levure chimique" and is bought in small pink paper sachets just about everywhere. Dave, I can't believe you didn't know.

As for baking soda, which is less of an everyday ingredient in French kitchens as it is in US kitchens (and I wonder why), ask for "bicarbonate de soude" in any pharmacie. Though small boxes of baking soda are increasingly easy to find in "grandes surfaces" like Champion, Carrefour or Leclerc, right next to the salt.

[sharonb]

This is a great topic, because I too recently made a cake (a chocolate stout cake). It called for baking powder (an American recipe) and I used the same amount of levure chimique. The cake was incredibly dense and flat. This made me wonder about quantities of baking powder/levure chimique. Are the substances comparable or truly the same thing?

Edited June 3, 2007 by sharonb (log)

[Dave Hatfield]

Dave, I can't believe you didn't know. 

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Ptipois, you have yet to discover the depths of my ignorance.

Thanks for the help. Will search out & try type 65 flour.

Dave

[K8memphis]

What kind of pink paper is this? The baking powder may have lost it's oomph before you even get a chance. Baking powder is real sensitive to moisture even like humidity. I mean my stuff comes in little metal cans sealed with a tight fitting plastic lid and I have to replace it twice yearly or so because the moisture can seep into it anyway. Pink paper sounds like a possible culprit to me.

[John Talbott]

At the risk of provoking my wonderful friend and colleague Pti's scorn: we schlep our Arm & Hammer Baking Soda and Baking powder over. I do believe there are several threads out there running on substitutions such as bacon, mayonaisse, flour & cream, etc.

[Ptipois]

What kind of pink paper is this? The baking powder may have lost it's oomph before you even get a chance. Baking powder is real sensitive to moisture even like humidity. I mean my stuff comes in little metal cans sealed with a tight fitting plastic lid and I have to replace it twice yearly or so because the moisture can seep into it anyway. Pink paper sounds like a possible culprit to me.

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You may take a closer look on this page.

Each package contains seven small paper bags, each one holding one dose (a bit less than 1 tbs) of the mixture (sodium bicarbonate, sodium pyrophospate, wheat flour). You should probably contact the Alsa company, they have been selling the stuff in paper bags for decades and still haven't noticed anything.

[Ptipois]

This is a great topic, because I too recently made a cake (a chocolate stout cake). It called for baking powder (an American recipe) and I used the same amount of levure chimique. The cake was incredibly dense and flat. This made me wonder about quantities of baking powder/levure chimique. Are the substances comparable or truly the same thing?

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I have been asking myself the same question. I do not think the substances are identical. I think US baking powder is a mix of sodium bicarbonate + ammonium bicarbonate and perhaps other things too, whereas my previous post will show you the ingredients of levure chimique. It is also called "levure alsacienne" and at first was commercialized by the Alsa brand (former "L'Alsacienne" biscuit and baking company). I also noticed that French levure chimique has a strong taste (you cannot use much of it) while US baking powder is more discrete. I haven't found the raising properties of levure chimique to be astounding anyway. I add a little bicarbonate to help the process.

[Ptipois]

At the risk of provoking my wonderful friend and colleague Pti's scorn: we schlep our Arm & Hammer Baking Soda and Baking powder over.  I do believe there are several threads out there running on substitutions such as bacon, mayonaisse, flour & cream, etc.

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Baking soda you may find everywhere now, while I think it's a good idea to schlep baking powder from overseas. Raising agents don't make up for heavy luggage anyway.

[K8memphis]

At the risk of provoking my wonderful friend and colleague Pti's scorn: we schlep our Arm & Hammer Baking Soda and Baking powder over.  I do believe there are several threads out there running on substitutions such as bacon, mayonaisse, flour & cream, etc.

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Baking soda you may find everywhere now, while I think it's a good idea to schlep baking powder from overseas. Raising agents don't make up for heavy luggage anyway.

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No but explaining white powder to customs & etc can get dicey.

[John Talbott]

Baking soda you may find everywhere now, while I think it's a good idea to schlep baking powder from overseas. Raising agents don't make up for heavy luggage anyway. 

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No but explaining white powder to customs & etc can get dicey.

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Funny, my little red can of Rumford never got a second glance.

[K8memphis]

Baking soda you may find everywhere now, while I think it's a good idea to schlep baking powder from overseas. Raising agents don't make up for heavy luggage anyway. 

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No but explaining white powder to customs & etc can get dicey.

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Funny, my little red can of Rumford never got a second glance.

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That was a joke, my friend.

[Dave Hatfield]

Here's an update.

I was in Cahors today and went to the monster Carrefour there.

No problem in finding bio type 65 flour.

No problem finding Bicarbonate. It was in the herbs & spices section right in the middle of all of the fancy salts.

levure chimique or levure alsacienne were nowhere to be found. I asked a couple of French housewives who were in the flour section with no luck & I asked somebody who worked in the store (that ended up with a small convocation of staff), but still no results.

So, where do they hide it?

[Ptipois]

So, where do they hide it?

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Levure chimique is never in the flour section but always in the baking ingredients section, together with the slivered almonds, vanilla extract, birthday candles, marzipan, dried bakers' yeast, etc.

It is conditioned in paper sachets the exact same size as the ones that contain vanilla sugar, the only way you can tell them apart is what's printed on the package.

(Edit: while you're looking for baking soda in the salts section, do grab a box of fleur de sel from Algarve, it is excellent stuff. Only Carrefour carries it.)

Edited June 5, 2007 by Ptipois (log)

[Dave Hatfield]

So, where do they hide it?

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Levure chimique is never in the flour section but always in the baking ingredients section, together with the slivered almonds, vanilla extract, birthday candles, marzipan, dried bakers' yeast, etc.

It is conditioned in paper sachets the exact same size as the ones that contain vanilla sugar, the only way you can tell them apart is what's printed on the package.

(Edit: while you're looking for baking soda in the salts section, do grab a box of fleur de sel from Algarve, it is excellent stuff. Only Carrefour carries it.)

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Thanks, I'll try there & let everyone know when (if) I succeed.

Agree about the fleur de sel.

[Dave Hatfield]

I made another carrot cake yesterday.

This time I used type 65 flour,Levure chimique and fresh bicarbonate from Carrefour.

It still didn't rise! Or to be more accurate it didn't rise as much as I thought it should. In fact it rose about the same amount as my first effort.

Maybe the problem is that the recipe calls for 8" pie pans & I only have 9" ?? I increased the recipe to compensate, but no luck.

Think I'll either double the recipe or buy some smaller cake pans next time.

The good news is that it tasted delicious and was devoured by our French friends. So I guess if I'm true to my food philosophy I shouldn't worry about the appearance and just be happy that the aroma & taste were right.

Still, I'd like to make a high rise cake soar off the plate!

[Ptipois]

Pardon my inexperience, but isn't a carrot cake supposed to rise only a little? In my experience is it a rather moist, dense cake. The grated carrots sort of hold it down with their little arms.

Personally I'm ready to forgive anything to a carrot cake if it has good cream cheese frosting on top.

[bleudauvergne]

Dave, put up your recipe and we'll tell you what went wrong with it.

[Dave Hatfield]

Ptipois, your cake making experience is no doubt superior to mine. I have this mental image of two layer carrot cake that's about 4 inches high. Mine came out at half that. Its more than possible that I'm tilting at windmills in this quest.

I do score on the frosting though. I used fromage frais as I don't know where to get a Philly cream cheese locally. I drained it well before using & it made a dynamite frosting.

Blue, the recipe is from our very own RecipeGullet. Here's the link:

Recipe

I'd love to find that I'm doing something so fundamentally stupid that a simple fix will make me soar.

Thanks to both of you.

[rooftop1000]

Dave up in the first post you mention French cake flour...the recipe calls for Matzah cake meal. Are cake meal and flour interchangeable at all?

T

[Ptipois]

I do score on the frosting though. I used fromage frais as I don't know where to get a Philly cream cheese locally. I drained it well before using & it made a dynamite frosting.

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Oh, that's easy. Use some Kiri.

[Dave Hatfield]

Dave up in the first post you mention French cake flour...the recipe calls for Matzah cake meal. Are cake meal and flour interchangeable at all?

T

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You got me; I haven't got a clue.

Maybe somebody knows & can enlighten.

[Abra]

Dude, that's a flourless cake recipe! You need to use one that's designed for flour, like this one. All that said, carrot cake will always be dense because of the carrots, oil, and any added fruit. It's not supposed to be light and fluffy.