• Welcome to the eG Forums, a service of the eGullet Society for Culinary Arts & Letters. The Society is a 501(c)3 not-for-profit organization dedicated to the advancement of the culinary arts. These advertising-free forums are provided free of charge through donations from Society members. Anyone may read the forums, but to post you must create an account.

  • product-image-quickten.png.a40203b506711f7664fc62024e54a584.pngDid you know that these all-volunteer forums are operated by the 501(c)3 not-for-profit Society for Culinary Arts & Letters? This holiday season, consider a tax-deductible Quick Ten Bucks to support the eG Forums and help us remain completely advertising-free. Thanks to all those who have donated so far!

Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
Miriam Kresh

What would vinegar add to bread dough?

17 posts in this topic

I was looking at the challah recipe on the back of a package of instant yeast. The yeast is dry granules that are meant to be mixed first with the flour, with liquids added after. The recipe called for 1 Tblsp. vinegar; the rest of the recipe goes like this:

1 kg. flour, mixed with 1 pkg. yeast

1/2 cup sugar

4 egg yolks (used 2 whole eggs instead)

2 tsp. salt

100 grams margarine (yech, I used a little olive oil instead)

1 Tblsp. vinegar

1 1/2 cups water (too little water; had to add about another 1/2 cup)

The challah was alright, but nothing to rave about. I prefer a lighter dough at any rate, but was left wondering what vinegar is supposed to do. A simple chemical reaction with the horrible margarine? Flavor enhancer?

Please edify me, someone.

Miriam


Miriam Kresh

blog:[blog=www.israelikitchen.com][/blog]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It could be there as a flavor enhancer. It's also the case that acetic acid wrecks gluten, which has a variety of effects.


Samuel Lloyd Kinsey

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would think it slows the yeast down from breeding too much with all the sugar around, should keep things sweeter and less yeasty. I used some lemon juice to promote glutens one time after reading Cookwise, but I forget why, and it counters what slkinsey said so it's probably wrong.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's a preserver...keeps the bread from going moldy so fast. At least that's what my mom says, and she's generally right about most things. But don't tell her I said that.


Don't try to win over the haters. You're not the jackass whisperer."

Scott Stratten

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

coquus, the acid in lemon juice is primarily citric acid. I'm not sure what effect that has on gluten. The effect of acetic acid on gluten is easily observable. Just make up a dough of flour and vinegar. You'll notice that the dough won't hold together, and you can see the gluten sheets ripping apart like an overfermented sourdough.

You may have something there with respect to yeast inhibition, though. Acetic acid (and a low pH in general) does inhibit growth and activity of bread yeast.


Samuel Lloyd Kinsey

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I played with rice vinegar a bit, adding 1/2 tsp into 800g of whole wheat flour made the dough kind of "springier". I had similar experience when added vital gluten...

Crumb texture had well defined cells with thick walls - without vinegar the same dough produced crumb with much smaller cells and crumbly texture.


Edited by doronin (log)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've made bread doughs with and without vinegar, and I concur with doronin, it makes the dough springier--same recipe, one with a tbsp of vinegar and one without.

ETA: Elastic might be a better word.


Edited by miladyinsanity (log)

May

Totally More-ish: The New and Improved Foodblog

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It seems that vinegar is for texture rather than flavor...and perhaps as a preservative, although I promise not to reveal Badiane's source to her Mom.

Thanks, folks.

Miriam


Miriam Kresh

blog:[blog=www.israelikitchen.com][/blog]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I had long thought that vinegar would retard yeast growth, and avoided it. However, recently I started adding 1 T of rice vinegar (i.e. a mild vinegar) to a loaf made with somewhat under 1 lb flour, to strengthen the sourness of bread made with yogurt whey.

The plan was to make a "quick" sour bread in the breadmaker, for extra palatability in summer. Since this is roughly double the amount of vinegar Miriam's original post mentions, it did add noticeable sourness. The sour flavor was a big hit with my elder son, who loses his appetite dramatically in hot weather.

Texture...yes, it really makes a difference - heavy bread made with rye, fine ground whole wheat flour and graham flour is normally a bit hard and heavy, but with vinegar, it's definitely springier (not really loftier, just better texture). Chewy but still soft, definitely the way forward for dark bread-machine breads for me.

It made a difference to a challah-type bread too, but not so dramatic. I've never eaten any challah except what I've baked myself, and find it a very springy bread - if that is how it is supposed to be, maybe the salt vs. vinegar/yolks/fat balance is the reason why. (And I used to include some durum semolina flour in challah, is that typical too, and would the vinegar make more of a difference with a really high-protein flour like that?).

Since then, I started reading McGee's Food and Cooking (riveting reading!) and sure enough, he mentions souring agents as tenderizing "hard" gluten structures. He doesn't go into all the detail I would like on flours, but it's still interesting reading just for the bread content.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm wondering whether the tablespoon of vinegar might be meant to be used as a wash? It's sometimes used to give the bread a dark, shiny appearance, although I've never done it myself.


Edited by devlin (log)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's an idea, and I'm keen to try it when the weather cools enough to use an oven!

With darker wholewheat or wholegrain loaves, a little vinegar is sometimes used as a "cheat's" souring agent in the dough. Wish I'd started doing it earlier...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ascorbic acid (vitamin C) in small amounts enhances yeast growth and will produce a springier dough.  It could be that vinegar is doing the same thing.

Err no. Ascorbic acid has a specific oxidising effect on an enzyme that otherwise degrades gluten present in fresh flour. Acetic acid (vinegar) would not have the same effect.

Any acid breaks down starch (not gluten) to sugars, but the amount added here would not be significant. Flavour is possible, and is sometimes added to mimic sourdough but that is not the typical flavour profile of challah. The small amount suggests adding to the eggwash

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Err no. Ascorbic acid has a specific oxidising effect on an enzyme that otherwise degrades gluten present in fresh flour. Acetic acid (vinegar) would not have the same effect.

Any acid breaks down starch (not gluten) to sugars, but the amount added here would not be significant. Flavour is possible, and is sometimes added to mimic sourdough but that is not the typical flavour profile of challah. The small amount suggests adding to the eggwash

Thanks for the clarification.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've a recipe that includes steel-cut oats and bulgar wheat that requires overnight soaking -

OR - "place oats and bulgar in a bowl and add 2 cups hot water mixed with 1/4 cup vinegar."

Soak for 30 minutes and pour off liquid - do not rinse.

I never thought about it specifically, just followed the recipe.

Perhaps the purpose in this instance is to soften these two grains more rapidly.

I haven't noticed any particular sourness in the bread but to my taste, whole grain breads are naturally sweeter anyway.


"There are, it has been said, two types of people in the world. There are those who say: this glass is half full. And then there are those who say: this glass is half empty. The world belongs, however, to those who can look at the glass and say: What's up with this glass? Excuse me? Excuse me? This is my glass? I don't think so. My glass was full! And it was a bigger glass!" Terry Pratchett

My blog:Books,Cooks,Gadgets&Gardening

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Err no. Ascorbic acid has a specific oxidising effect on an enzyme that otherwise degrades gluten present in fresh flour. Acetic acid (vinegar) would not have the same effect.

By fresh flour, do you mean flour that hasn't been aged for a couple of weeks after milling?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The great thing about barbeque is that when you get hungry 3 hours later....you can lick your fingers

Maxine

Avoid cutting yourself while slicing vegetables by getting someone else to hold them while you chop away.

"It is the government's fault, they've eaten everything."

My Webpage

garden state motorcyle association

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0

  • Similar Content

    • By nonkeyman
      How to Make Rye Sourdough Bread
      I don't know what it is about bread, but it is my favorite thing to make and eat. A freshly baked loaf of bread solves a world of problems. I was lucky enough to get to be one of the main bakers when I worked at the Herbfarm. We baked Epi, Baguettes, Rolls, Pretzels and so much more.
       

      Rye Sourdough Wood Oven Baked Bread
       
      My fondest memory when I worked there was our field trip to the Bread Lab(wait something this cool came out of WSU, of course!) here in Washington. They grow thousands of varieties of wheat and have some pretty cool equipment to test gluten levels, protein, genetics and so on. I nerded out so hard.
       
      What came out of that trip was this bread. Now I can't recall the exact flour we got from them, but using a basic bread and rye will do the trick. We used to get a special flour for our 100 mile menu. This was where we were limited to only serving food from 100 miles away. So finding a wheat farm that made actual hulled wheat in 100 miles was a miracle. The year before...the thing we made, was closer to hard tack.
       
      Now if you don't have a starter, I recommend starting one! It is a great investment!
       
      Rye Sourdough
      1000 g flour (60% Bread Flour, 40% Rye)
      25 g salt
       
      75 g of honey/molasses
      200 g of Rye starter 
      650 g of water, cold
      Equipment
      Baker Scale (or other gram scale)
      Bench Cutter
      Bread Razor (you could also use one of those straight razors)
       
      Start by taking the cold water, yeast and Honey and mix together and let sit for 10-15 minutes
       
      I know, some of you just freaked out, cold water? Won't that kill the yeast.
       
      Nope, the yeast just needs to re hydrate. I prefer using cold water to slow the yeast down. That way the lactobacillus in the starter has  a good amount of time to start making lactic acid, and really get to flavor town!
       
      While that is sitting, I mix the flour and the salt together(How many times I have forgotten to salt the bread).
       
      Now mix the two products with a kneading hook for 3-5 minutes, only until thoroughly mixed but not yet at the window pane stage of kneading.
       
       
      Instead, place into a bowl and set a timer for one hour. Then when that hour is up, push the dough down and fold all the corners in
       
      Repeat this step 2-3 more times, pending on the outside temperature.
       
      If you happen to have those cool bowls to shape round loafs! Awesome, use them. I would break the boules into 3 balls of about 333 grams
       
      If not then just put the dough in the fridge and do the steps below the next day.
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
      Once you have bouled the bread, can put it into the fridge and let it sit over night
       
      Again, this lets the bacteria, really get to work(misconception is the yeast adds the sour flavor, nope, think yogurt!)
       
      Now on the next day, heat up whatever form of oven you plan to use. We used a brick oven but if you just have a normal oven, that is fine. Crank it to 450 degrees Fahrenheit.
       
      If you have not bouled your bread yet, go back and watch the video and break the dough down into three balls of abut 333 grams. Then place the balls on a lightly greased sheet pan. Let sit for about 45 minutes to 1 hour.

      If you have used the fancy bowls then turn the the bread out on a lightly greased sheet pan, without the bowl and let temper for 15-30 minutes.
       
       
      If your oven is steam injected, build up a good blast of steam.
       
      If not, throw in a few ice cubes and close the door or put a bath of hot water inside.
       
      The steam is what creates the sexy crust!
       
      Let it build up for a few minutes!
       
      Right before you put the bread into the oven use a bread razor to slice the top of the bread.
       
      Place the dough balls into the oven and douse with another blast of steam or ice and close the oven.
       
      Let them bake for 13 minutes at 450 degrees. Then turn the loaves and bake for another 10 minutes.
       
      Remove when the crust is as dark as you want and the internal temperature exceeds 190 degrees Fahrenheit.
       
      Now pull out and make sure to let cool off of the sheet pan with room to breath underneath. You don't want your crust steaming!
       
      Now here is the hardest part, wait at least 20 minutes before getting into the bread. Also, cutting into bread to early really seems to come out poorly. I would rip the bread until 1-2 hours has passed.
       
      Now serve it with your favorite butter, goat butter or whipped duck fat!
       
    • By Catherine T
      Hi, I have just discovered and registered on this site. My main cooking and baking concern is that I have been diagnosed with Celiac Disease and haven't been able to eat gluten. BUT I have discovered an exception. When I have visited Continental Europe such as Spain and Russia, I have been able to eat their bread and have had no negative repercussions. Then when I try eating bread in Great Britain and North America I have become sick. My research on the Web has not provided any explanations although I believe the EU has banned GMO grains. I was recently gifted panetonne from a Toronto restaurant called Sud Forno that uses Italian flour and I was able to safely eat it. Another bakery called Forno Cultura advertises that it uses European flour. So I am going to approach them to see if I can buy their flour in bulk. I will let you know how it goes.
    • By borgr
      I want to leave my sourdough (itself, not baked loaves of sourdough bread) for a while (going abroad) but I do not want it to die, can I leave it in the freezer? do you have other ideas?
    • By hazardnc
      Having no local Arabic bakery, I have long hoped to learn to make good khoubz at home. Every time I try, however, my bread is too stiff and tough. I have been successfully making other breads using The Bread Baker's Apprentice, and now wonder if my bread woule benefit from an overnight ferment in the refrigerator.
      FoodMan (and anyone) can you help me?
    • By FrogPrincesse
      San Diego has a small number of artisanal bread bakeries. Bread & Cie has been my favorite for years, and their breads are now available in many supermarkets, which is very convenient. But it's nice to have some variety. So I was excited to spot a new bakery this weekend in Linda Vista. It's called Pacific Time and it is also a sandwich place with a small market with things like small-batch preserves, local beers, a cheese counter, charcuterie platters, and wine. It's located within a recently renovated strip mall that also hosts Brew Mart & Ballast Point.
       
      The bread I bought was a French-type rustic boule, dark, a bit reminiscent of Poilane but less dense. The crust could have been a little more crispy (it felt like the bread had sat around a little bit and softened in the paper bag), but the flavor was wonderful.
       

       

       
      Here is the bread:
       
       
       
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.