Why don't Jews eat Jewish?

[savethedeli]

Why is it that Jewish food tends to be reserved almost strictly for the holidays? Why has it basically been reduced to brisket, matzo ball soup, gefilte fish, and kugel?

There are thousands of recipes and variations on Jewish cooking, from nearly every corner of the globe, to suit almost any taste. Not all of it is fat or heavy or bland (as the reputation goes). So why is it such a rare appearance on Jewish tables and how can it be revitalized?

Talmudic questions need modern answers.

[Nathan]

because most of it is a subset of regional cuisines.

i.e. see the justly famous Jewish cuisine of Rome...it is seen as a particular subset of the cooking of Lazio...

[CaliPoutine]

I make Jewish food all the time, not just on a holiday. I just made some kasha and bows a few days ago. I make kugel a lot too. I even made hamantashen for my grandpa long after Purim!!

To me, Jewish food is comfort food. It reminds me of my childhood. When I dont feel like eating or cooking a big dinner, I'll make my "old reliable". egg noodles with cottage cheese( and lots of fresh cracker pepper).

Here is some kugel I made in May 05

And some soup I made when the weather turned cold in Oct 05

Edited May 29, 2007 by CaliPoutine (log)

[savethedeli]

because most of it is a subset of regional cuisines.

i.e. see the justly famous Jewish cuisine of Rome...it is seen as a particular subset of the cooking of Lazio...

←

I completely agree, but the variations created by dietary restrictions created a stye and taste all its own. Pastrami may have come from Turkish preservation and Romanian cured pork, but the brisket and navel stuff is a world apart.

Why aren't there Jewish restaurants in NY,LA, Montreal, Chicago that serve the food from different regions you talk about? Why aren't there Jewish chefs who focus on reinterpreting kugels or kibbeh or rice pudding?

[Nathan]

well, it would take one chef with a mastery of cuisines from throughout Europe and North Africa. that's a lot to ask for.

someone with a deep knowledge of Italian food is going to do a lot better with the Jewish cooking of Rome than someone steeped in German-Jewish cooking.

[Carrot Top]

Why aren't there Jewish restaurants in NY,LA, Montreal, Chicago that serve the food from different regions you talk about?  Why aren't there Jewish chefs who focus on reinterpreting kugels or kibbeh or rice pudding?

←

It's a good question, overall, but I have one for you in return.

Is it possible that a gentile chef could do this?

............................

I read here about something similar happening with bagels - though not with the focus on reinterpretation but rather on the maintenance of tradition even though the tradition was not of the cook's native culture.

I ordered a dozen minis and six regular bagels. I tore off a piece of each as I left the shop, and two bites later I knew that the Thongkriengs, the Thai family that owns Absolute, are still at the top of their game. I had written about them in the New York Times a few years before, when I discovered that many Thai bagel bakers were carrying on old-world boil and baking bagelmaking traditions.

................................

I'd be very happy to have a good deli nearby, as you know. I can not imagine why we don't have one, and I'm going to have to start talking to people around here to try to figure it out. There *is* a small Jewish population and an active student group.

I can see what Nathan is saying though, too. The draw and charm of the sort of Jewish cookery as described in Edda Servi Machlin's "The Classic Cuisine of the Italian Jews" might appeal to a wider audience. For what reason, I don't know. Maybe it's a style thing. *

*"Style" of course, meaning something that is a created image. The image is based upon perception, and perception is created within the defining of the inherent style. Then the question arises: If you alter something's "style" to make it fit into a different perception, is it then the same thing it was?

If you know what I mean. ( )

Edited May 29, 2007 by Carrot Top (log)

[slkinsey]

because most of it is a subset of regional cuisines.

i.e. see the justly famous Jewish cuisine of Rome...it is seen as a particular subset of the cooking of Lazio...

I completely agree, but the variations created by dietary restrictions created a stye and taste all its own. Pastrami may have come from Turkish preservation and Romanian cured pork, but the brisket and navel stuff is a world apart.

Why aren't there Jewish restaurants in NY, LA, Montreal, Chicago that serve the food from different regions you talk about? Why aren't there Jewish chefs who focus on reinterpreting kugels or kibbeh or rice pudding?

There are. For example, there is a NYC family that owns two Italian restaurants specializing in the Jewish cooking of Rome: Tevere, a meat restaurant, and Va Bene, a dairy restaurant.

Most likely there are several reasons there aren't lots of restaurants doing Jewish foods.

First of all, it's not always the case that the Kosher food of a city or culture is so distinctly different that it would be worth having a restaurant dedicated to this cuisine. For example, despite the proud tradition of Roman Jewish cooking, it's not so distinct from regular Roman cooking that most Americans could tell the difference. So, more likely one is likely to find a few of the well known, unique dishes scattered around on Italian restaurant menus. A good example would be artichokes fanned out and deep fried in extra virgin olive oil, otherwise known as carciofi alla giudia. For this reason, as Nathan points out, the Jewish cooking is likely to be seen simply as part of that national cuisine.

The second reason is that... well, once you can find something that would be identifiable as"distinctly Jewish" (and I would argue that kibbeh and rice pudding don't come close to passing this test) to most Americans... a lot of it is not terribly interesting. Why would anyone want to reinterpret a typical Ashkenazi kugel? How could it possibly be reinterpreted to much that anyone would pay money for it in a restaurant?

Third, unless part of the "reinterpretation" includes sticking to the rules of kashrut, how much can many of these dishes evolve before they're not so "Jewish" anymore? How much could e.g., a noodle kugel be reinterpreted before most everyone would see it as being more of a variation on "mac & cheese"? How much can gefilte fish be reinterpreted before it becomes simply a fish quenelle? So, at some point one is left with the idea of doing, e.g., Eastern European peasant cooking that adheres to Jewish dietary laws. Meh. Not that interesting. And, more to the point, it's been done... for centuries.

I would argue, by the way, that Jews do eat "Jewish food" -- or, rather, the ones who are observant do. And they eat the same kind of "Jewish food" that Jews have eaten over thousands of years, which is to say: more or less the local cooking tailored and changed a little to adhere to kashrut.

[gini]

I guess all those folks who reside state-side who keep kosher aren't cooking "Jewish" foods on a daily basis, huh?

Just to reiterate, many of the "Jewish" foods found in cuisines worldwide will be categorized as just that - Italian, Chinese, Spanish to most Americans.

Additionally, many Jews in the states don't live in Jewish communities as Jews across the pond do so there aren't many kosher restaurants needed to sustain (and profit) from said community. Look at the demise of the deli in NY - the good ones are all in Jersey now.

[scubadoo97]

Why is it that Jewish food tends to be reserved almost strictly for the holidays?

These are times to remember ones heritage and food is a big one for helping us do that. At our hoidays we are more likely to have hummus and stuffed squash and grape leaves. Some of these dishes are labor intensive and are not made a lot during the year but others I make year round.

I have to admit that I really don't know what Jewish food is. Jews have picked up the cuisine of their native countries. Sure one can categorize foods like chicken soup and kugel as Jewish foods but they really are an expression of where the majority of American Jews are from.

Edited May 29, 2007 by scubadoo97 (log)

[savethedeli]

Wow...just a few hours and very good points raised by all involved. Plus, no hysterial kosher bashing or anti-kosher bashing. Impressive.

Let me pose another, less-talmudic question:

Can traditional Jewish food (whether Ashkenazi or Sephardic or Mediterranean) be reinterpreted today? Have you seen any cool, interesting takes on it.

Example #1

Joel Robuchon in New York has a pastrami dish on the menu. It comes inspired from his friend's mother in Alsace, who is Jewish. It lays thinly sliced corned beef, folded over and around, with shavings of foie gras and chive spiked potato salad. Very interesting and delicate...not exactly Katz's or Carnegie.

any others?

Edited May 29, 2007 by savethedeli (log)

[slkinsey]

Would anyone eating that Robuchon dish think it was "reinterpreted Jewish cooking"? What's "Jewish" about it other than the pastrami? I got the impression the dish was more "New York-inspired" than "reinterpreted Jewish." I've had skate stuffed with pastrami and a mustard emulsion at Oceana. Is that "reinterpreted Jewish"?

Edited May 29, 2007 by slkinsey (log)

[cakewalk]

It lays thinly sliced corned beef, folded over and around, with shavings of foie gras and chive spiked potato salad.  Very interesting and delicate...not exactly Katz's or Carnegie.

←

And this you call Jewish? Feh.

Question: when does Jewish food become Goyish?

Answer: see above.

Seriously, I suppose the question becomes: what's Jewish about it? If the origin of a recipe is Jewish (and I'm not really 100% sure what that might mean) but the recipe has evolved to something "other," is it still Jewish food? One can order the above in a restaurant and still ask the question ... "why don't Jews eat Jewish?"

[cakewalk]

Plus, no hysterial kosher bashing or anti-kosher bashing.  Impressive.

←

Oh that sort of thing would never happen here.

[savethedeli]

It lays thinly sliced corned beef, folded over and around, with shavings of foie gras and chive spiked potato salad.  Very interesting and delicate...not exactly Katz's or Carnegie.

←

And this you call Jewish? Feh.

Question: when does Jewish food become Goyish?

Answer: see above.

Seriously, I suppose the question becomes: what's Jewish about it? If the origin of a recipe is Jewish (and I'm not really 100% sure what that might mean) but the recipe has evolved to something "other," is it still Jewish food? One can order the above in a restaurant and still ask the question ... "why don't Jews eat Jewish?"

←

Mon ami, it is quite Jewish. There's an interesting article by Steingarten about how foie gras was a Jewish creation as a result of finding alternatives to pork pate made in that region of France. So it ain't Goyish...now a Reuben sandwich, that's Goyish...a fine shmaltzy line.

From others, I'm getting a lot along the lines of "That isn't Jewish". What then should define Jewish food?

[Carrot Top]

Don't ask me, but here's a site with lots of ideas.

[slkinsey]

From others, I'm getting a lot along the lines of "That isn't Jewish".  What then should define Jewish food?

Kashrut.

I have yet to see a convincing argument that there is anything distinctively different about, e.g., traditional Ashkenazi cooking and traditional non-Jewish cooking of Eastern Europe other than the fact that the Ashkenazi cooking is kosher.

Edited May 29, 2007 by slkinsey (log)

[Nathan]

From others, I'm getting a lot along the lines of "That isn't Jewish".  What then should define Jewish food?

Kashrut.

I have yet to see a convincing argument that there is anything distinctively different about, e.g., traditional Ashkenazi cooking and traditional non-Jewish cooking of Eastern Europe other than the fact that the Ashkenazi cooking is kosher.

←

the same with Italy (the Jewish cooking of Rome is one of at least three major types of cuisine in Lazio....but all of them are Italian in sensibility with the divisions between the three centering around socio-economic status and in the Jewish case, religion).

[Fat Guy]

From others, I'm getting a lot along the lines of "That isn't Jewish".  What then should define Jewish food?

Kashrut.

I have yet to see a convincing argument that there is anything distinctively different about, e.g., traditional Ashkenazi cooking and traditional non-Jewish cooking of Eastern Europe other than the fact that the Ashkenazi cooking is kosher.

←

The kosher dietary laws primarily rule out certain dishes and variants of dishes, though -- they're not really responsible for creating a lot of dishes. Maybe some adaptations -- "green eggs and lamb" -- but not much actual creation. The only dish I can think of that has actual origins in Jewish law, besides matzoh, is cholent. Because observant Jews can't light a flame on the Sabbath, the cholent needs to be cooked on a low flame starting Friday late afternoon, for service Saturday afternoon. This leads to a stew that is, if not unique in the universe, at least pretty closely tied to the Jewish religion.

So I think the choice is between saying "there's really no such thing as Jewish food except maybe cholent, matzoh and a few kosher adaptations" and looking at a different way of defining Jewish food -- an approach that's culturally centered rather than focused on individual dishes and derivations. If you go to a traditional New York Jewish deli or dairy restaurant, you can certainly prove that pretty much everything served there derives from regional European cuisine, yet you can't find a restaurant like a traditional New York Jewish deli or dairy restaurant in Europe, unless it's in a Jewish neighborhood like the Marais in Paris. Likewise, if you look at Jewish cookbooks, it's not so much that the individual dishes are wholly Jewish. Rather, it's the collection as a whole, the sum total of all the little adaptations, traditions, etc.

[markk]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think I feel savethedeli's pain.

I love the comfort foods that I think of as "Jewish" that are probably just middle-European, and I crave them. Chopped liver. Stuffed Cabbage. Boiled beef Flanken in the pot of broth with matzoh balls and noodles. Brisket with potato latkes. Chicken Fricasse with Helzel! I think of these as Jewish because my Jewish grandmother made them when I was growing up.

Am I wrong though? Are they not really "Jewish"?

As far as the modern re-interpretation, I don't think that you have to get all "fancy" to do it. I think it's simply that a chef (probably somebody who remembers these foods from his childhood) has to set out to make them fresh and delicious again, and by that I mean for example, make a brisket without using Lipton onion soup mix. Or make boiled beef flanken as carefully as a French chef would make Pot au Feu. A lot of these dishes (and traditional dishes from other cuisines) suffer becase the people who have been making them for years make them by rote, by formula, instead of by taste. "There! I followed the recipe and made your flanken!" - without caring if it's dry, or heavy, or greasy, or interesting; well, that's what happens to a lot of cuisines as they fade away. I would like to think that the foods of my childhood are not going to disappear, even in my lifetime.

For me, I would love it if a chef would make these dishes again from scratch. I commented on the Deli thread about Rascal House in Miami - before they went donwhill, I'd go there every night for a week on vacation, and simply re-create my childhood, eating all of the dishes I mentioned in my second paragraph above.

Though I live in Jersey, I'm not in a part that's got one of these remaining Jewish delis. If I did, I'd probably eat from there several times a week.

[Fat Guy]

To address the original question, why don't Jews eat Jewish, I think there are probably a few things going on here.

First, the pattern reflects overall eating habits in North America, which have for years been trending against Russian, German, Scandinavian, classical French and other cuisines from Central, Eastern and Northern Europe. The studies on ethnic food trends refer to these cuisines as "Old-World Traditional," and they're the ones that are in decline. In the recent "Ethnic Cuisines II" study, the perceptions of these cuisines were that they're "rich, indulgent" (conflicting with the perceived desire to eat healthy), and "fairly static in terms of offerings and don't appeal to adventurous diners." By contrast, Asian and Latin cuisines are very much on the rise.

Second, Jews are largely an assimilated, affluent, urban-suburban population -- with the exception of the orthodox communities (where they do eat Jewish food) -- and are therefore going to be eating whatever is trend-forward.

Third, the knowledge and experience needed to make traditional Jewish food well has largely been lost in the past couple of generations (based on a lot of personal experience, this is even true in the orthodox community). So with the exception of a few restaurants that are still making good stuff, and a few appetizing stores that sell great product, there's just not much reason for people to like these foods. There are some great books from Joan Nathan, Mitchell Davis, et al., but books can only do so much.

Fourth (and this is the last thing on my list, though I'm sure there are other factors), some of the best Jewish foods have gone mainstream. Bagels, for example, are consumed hand over fist in every state and province in the US and Canada. The Jewish influence is felt in every deli that serves pastrami. The Hebrew National brand is well established pretty much everywhere. You go to any Costco in North America and you can find enough products to put on a full Jewish appetizing-type spread. I even occasionally see matzoh-ball soup in the most goyishe Middle American diners. This process of mainstreaming is typical, and is also well documented in the literature. For example, some cuisines that are the subject of significant mainstreaming right now are Italian, Mexican and Chinese. According to the National Restaurant Association, "the market for ethnic food has grown to such an extent that Italian, Mexican and Chinese (Cantonese) cuisines have joined the mainstream . . . . those three cuisines have become so ingrained in American culture that they are no longer considered ethnic."

[BeeZee]

To address the original question, why don't Jews eat Jewish, I think there are probably a few things going on here.

First, the pattern reflects overall eating habits in North America, which have for years been trending against Russian, German, Scandinavian, classical French and other cuisines from Central, Eastern and Northern Europe. The studies on ethnic food trends refer to these cuisines as "Old-World Traditional," and they're the ones that are in decline. In the recent "Ethnic Cuisines II" study, the perceptions of these cuisines were that they're "rich, indulgent" (conflicting with the perceived desire to eat healthy), and "fairly static in terms of offerings and don't appeal to adventurous diners." By contrast, Asian and Latin cuisines are very much on the rise.

Second, Jews are largely an assimilated, affluent, urban-suburban population -- with the exception of the orthodox communities (where they do eat Jewish food) -- and are therefore going to be eating whatever is trend-forward.

←

Fat Guy expresses something similar to what I was thinking (just more eloquently than I could have)...I was thinking it was somewhat a function of feeling that these were foods of our poor, makeshift past, things we cooked because we couldn't afford the "better" quality ingredients (ie, "peasant food"). The younger, upwardly mobile generation sees these traditional foods as part of the immigrant class, not part of the assimilated culture - an anachronism maybe? Personally, I don't enjoy most of the traditional Eastern European foods of my ancestors. Except potato latkes

[Fat Guy]

Speaking only for myself here, I do enjoy traditional Jewish foods, especially when (rarely) they're made well. But as much as I enjoy them, they'll never be more than an occasional pleasure for me. When I walk down the aisles of today's markets like Fairway (in New York) and Whole Foods (just about any city), and visit all the great farmers markets and specialty stores across North America, I want to cook and eat stuff that emphasizes fresh ingredients and bright flavors. So, sure, once in awhile I want a pastrami sandwich at Katz's, and I look forward to Jewish holiday foods several times a year, but the rest of the time I'm more interested in cooking and eating in the contemporary, international, product-oriented style.

[Carrot Top]

Can traditional Jewish food (whether Ashkenazi or Sephardic or Mediterranean) be reinterpreted today?  Have you seen any cool, interesting takes on it.

←

Maybe.

Recipe: Kona Nova

1 large bunch fresh dill, stems removed

1 1/2 cup brown sugar

1 1/2 cup kosher salt

1 3-pound salmon fillet

1 cup Lapsong souchong tea, brewed

1 1/2 tablespoons pure maple syrup.

Further directions and story here: Bagels in Paradise, Kona Nova with a Schmear.

[Fat Guy]

One interesting reinterpretation of traditional Jewish food is the annual Passover seder at the restaurant Tabla in New York. Tabla is an haute-Indian fusion restaurant, and the chef there is Floyd Cardoz, a Christian from Goa. He serves, among other things, incredible matzoh-ball soup laced with fenugreek (I haven't been to the seder, but have had the chance to taste some of the items).

[cakewalk]

Speaking of Jewish foods becoming mainstream: there's a greasy-spoon diner on 10th Ave. and 37th or 38th and every year at Passover time there's a sign in their window (hand written) that says, "we make the best matzoh-brei!" It's an absolute marvel of mainstreaming. However, since it's during Passover, I've never eaten it.