How Important is an In-House Pasty Chef?

[docsconz]

Moderator's Note:

This is a very interesting topic, but it can be a very emotional one to. Please refrain from personal attacks and address the issues directly.

[Vadouvan]

An elephant? You think too much of yourself. Nobody will answer since the question has no general relevance to the topic.

Please, in your next post, drop some names for us. We are very impressed with you.

Posts like these are why I emphasise a familiarity with humanities and perhaps liberal arts before going to cooking school so people can understand basic grammar analogies.

When someone says "the elephant on the coffee table", it refer's to an obvious high profile situation relevant to the conversation at hand.

In this case as DOCSCONZ finally answered above, all these people whining about how restaurants cannot survive without pastry chefs dont realise that Achatz at Alinea seems to be doing exactly that and still manages to be among the top 3 well regarded restaurants in the country.

The "elephant" refers to a large figure you cannot ignore based on it's proximity (this conversation)

The elephant is larger than life in the context of the analogy (in this case Achatz's visisbilty in the world of American Chefs)

Grant Achatz is "the elephant on the coffee table"

For further clarification, it would be like having a presidential debate next week without Hillary Clinton or John McCain present"

A political observer would say "how could you ignore "the elephants on the coffee table".

Kabish ?

The analogy does not refer to the person who makes the analogy (me).

All you respond with is calling me a name dropper simply because it illustrates that the points you are making are invalid. I am not even angry or take it personally, it just shows the iceblock of logic you are standing on top of in the middle of the sahara is crumbling.

Maybe that's an easier analogy...

Edited April 3, 2007 by Vadouvan (log)

[adegiulio]

An elephant? You think too much of yourself. Nobody will answer since the question has no general relevance to the topic.

Please, in your next post, drop some names for us. We are very impressed with you.

Posts like these are why I emphasise a familiarity with humanities and perhaps liberal arts before going to cooking school so people can understand basic grammar analogies.

When someone says "the elephant on the coffee table", it refer's to an obvious high profile situation relevant to the conversation at hand.

In this case as DOCSCONZ finally answered above, all these people whining about how restaurants cannot survive without pastry chefs dont realise that Achatz at Alinea seems to be doing exactly that and still manages to be among the top 3 well regarded restaurants in the country.

The "elephant" refers to a large figure you cannot ignore based on it's proximity (this conversation)

The elephant is larger than life in the context of the analogy (in this case Achatz's visisbilty in the world of American Chefs)

Grant Achatz is "the elephant on the coffee table"

For further clarification, it would be like having a presidential debate next week without Hillary Clinton or John McCain present"

A political observer would say "how could you ignore "the elephants on the coffee table".

Kabish ?

The analogy does not refer to the person who makes the analogy (me).

All you respond with is calling me a name dropper simply because it illustrates that the points you are making are invalid. I am not even angry or take it personally, it just shows the iceblock of logic you are standing on top of in the middle of the sahara is crumbling.

Maybe that's an easier analogy...

←

Simply because you missed my point doesn't mean I missed the analogy. Nobody is whining that restaurants cant survive without pastry chefs. People are only reacting to your broad statement that since a few highly acclaimed restaurants work without pastry chefs, that restaurants all over the country will dump their pastry chefs. It is your logic that needs some firming.

And, I happily stand by my assertion that you are a name dropper. Just look back at your posts in case you forgot.

[Vadouvan]

And, I happily stand by my assertion that you are a name dropper. Just look back at your posts in case you forgot.

Wow it's getting hotter in the sahara.

Thankfully e-gullet is a built in court stenographer.....

Now looking back upthread.

I asked your Your buddy... TB86

Outside of the obvious high profile, actually talented specific few who ALL reside or work in NYC like Mason, Stupak,Rouxel,Iuzzini et al, your statement is not true.

Would you give me an example of ONE restaurant in America that the primary draw is the pastry chef besides the implosion of Varietal ?

To which the senor replied...

hmmm lets see, sherry yard at spago, michelle meyers at boule and sona, elizabeth falkner at citizen cake, franscois payard at payard, jaques torres at his own place, jeez lets see richard leach at park ave, goldfarb at r4d, mindy segal at hot chocolate, dude you want me to keep going,,,,, and if you would calm down a bit and re read what i wrote,,, did i say primary draw, i think not,,,my friend i did say a major draw lets go on some more, remy funfrock w ritz now, richard ruskell,, at montage,, hsu en min,,, wonyee tom,,, michele richard,,, forget he is a pastry chef???

all those guys are high profile, you can only think of that small group, kinda sad, dont seem to be to well educated in the buisness,

how about pierre herme, ever heard of that guy?

must be some one else that everyone goes to see

Then I gave a point by point reply.....

Pierre Herme does not have a restaurant, he has a pattiserie.

Francois Payard whom I have cooked with on 2 occasions and is very talented isnt a great example.

Payard on Lex is a very good pastry shop but besides the desserts, there was a strong component of people going there for Phillippe Bertineau's bistro cooking which was fabulous at the time.

Jaques Torres has a chocolate factory and yes when he was at Boulud's, people werent saying lets go to Daniel and spend goobs of cash so we can eat Torres's deserts.

As to the rest of the people, yes i am aware of who hey are but the average member of the general public couldnt give two craps who they are, People go to restaurants to eat.

The Sona team is well known amnd are praised more because they have a story as opposed to the fact that they are catually doing anything nationally rave worthy.

Will goldfarb is like charlie parker, Keats and a pastry chef rolled into one and operating on a much higher plane of intelligence that the average person.

What seperates intelligent "pastry" chefs, Kitchens and leaders from the usual restaurant acrimony and jockeying for position is the will to work together and find your place while supporting the goals of the team.

Many of those in the food world have complete tunnel vision because they have xero exposure to other creative or liberal arts. In order for you to understand my points, I suggest you sir go out and buy the miles davis album "Kind of Blue" and listen to the collaboration betweem Miles, Coltrane, Cannnball Adderly,Jimmy Cobb and Paul Chambers.

It is singularly the best illustration of how 5 people can synergistically achieve higher goals.

Isnt that what a kitchen is about rather than walking around with bullshit titles on your jackets ?

Edited to add: next time you are in Paris, Herme is excellent but he isnt the cats ass, go check out Laduree, that place easily makes anything in NY look like pastry made in a federal prison's vocational kitchen

http://www.laduree.fr/

Upon which to further explain the relationship between food and desserts in a restaurant by saying.....

Gilt under Paul Liebrandt was fabulous, I was lucky enough to have two great meals there.

All the desserts were terrible both times.

This is why it is in the interest of chefs to care about dessert programs.

CRU on the other hand, the food was boring, Goldfarbs desserts were fun for me but conceptually outside the scope of understanding of Frank Bruni.

Will eventually found his footing at R4D and both he and Bobbbeee make good stuff

It goes both ways.

Per Se, the food was mostly good, the egregious supplement prices were absurd, the desserts ranged from prose-enhaced 2.5 on the richter scale to little silly post dinner creme brulees.

JGV columbus circle had good food and iuzinni's deserts were great.

WD50 had a dinner that was a culinary interpretation of listening to Miles davis Bitches Brew.

You either liked it or you didnt get it.

Masons dessert on the other hand was like listening Arvo part's music, you approach with dubious suspicion but you leave with a smile

Chikalicious was interesting.

Cant wait to taste P-ong.

Buddakan meatpacking is just plain absurd dessert wise.

So by basically using supporting examples of names or restaurants and the respective chefs, (something you see on 75% of restaurant related e-gullet threads)....that makes me a name dropper.

Name dropping is ususally attched to the lemmings who ask for Mcnally at Morandi and Balthazar when they dont have reservations.

if you consider Using names of chefs on e-gullet in complex detailed conversations in which the name of the chef is completely relevant...........to be Name dropping, then you should be posting on Regina Scramblings Gasrtopoda.com

http://gastropoda.com/index.html

Analogy wise, ultimately you should be standing on wet sand right now.

Edited April 3, 2007 by Vadouvan (log)

[philadining]

I think this is a fascinating topic, but I suspect it's getting a bit off-track because some of the statements on all sides are being taken a bit too literally.

I'm quite sure vadouvan doesn't believe that there will be NO pastry chefs in ANY restaurants (outside of his original exemptions.) I think it's called hyperbole (learned no doubt at the foot of Doug Pirhanna, he knew all the tricks...)(oops, name-dropping!) and as we've seen here, it's a very effective rhetorical technique.

All I can say is I've had some rocking desserts lately that have all been coming from what would have previously been considered the hot kitchen....

[Vadouvan]

I think this is a fascinating topic, but I suspect it's getting a bit off-track because some of the statements on all sides are being taken a bit too literally.

I'm quite sure vadouvan doesn't believe that there will be NO pastry chefs in ANY restaurants (outside of his original exemptions.) I think it's called hyperbole (learned no doubt at the foot of Doug Pirhanna, he knew all the tricks...)(oops, name-dropping!) and as we've seen here, it's a very effective rhetorical technique.

All I can say is I've had some rocking desserts lately that have all been coming from what would have previously been considered the hot kitchen....

I am out Phil.

It's like yelling in a playground during recess.

This is why the post adolescent attitude of I know more than you do even though I have no idea who you are ruins the forum.

Invariably the same community that makes money off of people they consider the "bridge and tunnel crowd" seems to suffer from tunnel vision.

Peace-out.

Edited April 3, 2007 by Vadouvan (log)

[tb86]

yeah like i said i never made the claim that pastry chefs are the primary draw for a restaurant,,,,,,, re read it maybe,, ok obviously you dont think pastry chefs are necassary at all levels of restaurants, and yes there are a few high end places that dont currently have a pastry chef,,,, i highly doubt that the cooks at alinea are taking over the department , more likley there is a pastry sous that was well trained by alex that is running the show,, i doubt that alinea will go on forever with out a pastry chef.

Yes some level restaurants can operate sans pastry chef, thats fine, but if you work in a 2,3,4 star nyc restaurant you should have a pastry chef, i kinda think that this is a service that is owed to the customer whom may be spending hundreds of dollars for a meal, a sommelier isnt needed but at a certian caliber restaurant it should be expected that someone w expertice is on staff,

Thats fine if you dont want or feel you need to have a pastry chef, maybe it works in your place, but it wont in mine, my owners expect a certian level of performance that i can provide to them, im pretty sure you may be competent at what you do, but your kinda getting carried away,,

i know enough to know that id be a fool to claim to know everything about pastry, and im kinda sure ive spent a lil bit more time in pastry kitchens than you have,

[docsconz]

To a significant extent I think the issue being discussed here depends on the kind of food being prepared in a given restaurant. More traditional restaurants have less overlap between savory and dessert items and the better ones will likely still have pastry chefs for the foreseeable future. Where I think the line gets fuzzy are with more modern restaurants. The distinctions between savory and sweet are already fizzy in places like Alinea, WD-50 and elsewhere as savory chefs try their hands with sweeter elements and techniques borrowed from the pastry lexicon and pastry chefs do the reverse. Sam Mason is a classic example of the latter. He has made a name for himself by incorporating traditionally savory ingredients into his desserts and he is now about to embark on a restaurant at which he will be doing savory courses in addition to desserts. As Vadouvan said, it goes both ways. Pastry chefs will not become extinct (I certainly hope not), but I do think that we will continue to see more overlap of roles within the kitchen. Unless one really prefers a traditional style I think it would be wise whether a savory or sweet focus, to maintain some familiarity with both areas.

[phaelon56]

That's inherently the problem, limited thinking. I dont know what cooking school you went to but last time I checked averyone in the culinary program is taught the basics of pastry and just as soon as the graduate thats it, no more interest.

←

There are certainly exceptions to that but admittedly - they are in a small minority. Friends of mine have a son who is currently doing a year in the pastry chef program at CIA. But he stayed on to do that after finishing the standard curriculum first.

He's running circles around most of his classmates on many projects because so many of them are there JUST for the pastry program. They lack the much deeper background in cooking fundamentals that he has already acquired by virtue of his interest, aptitude and education.

But that's the point - he stayed on for an extra year because he has a thirst for as comprehensive a knowledge base and set of skills as he can acquire before jumping out into the real world.

Question: Is it possible that the most successful pastry chefs and the highest percentage of successful ones have a prior background that encompasses far more than just pastry work? That they evolved into it after first experiencing other parts of the working culinary world?

I'm curious because I've gotten the impression (perhaps erroneously) that a fairly high percentage of people who attend only a pastry program but have not gone through a standard culinary program (e.g. CIA or Johnson and Wales) end up either not working in their "chosen field" for any significant period of time.

[alanamoana]

I think the answers to some of the questions and ideas posited in this thread rely on a "chicken or egg" understanding of restaurant dynamics, restaurant critique, culinary school, public perception and so many other things that are intangible.

I'm a pastry chef and although I do have a liberal arts background, it is difficult for me to formulate a coherent thought regarding the role of pastry chefs in the present or future because I try too hard to be objective about it and as we can see from this 'discussion' it is anything but.

Excuse my ramblings as I try to explain my intro sentence:

Pastry chefs often run their own departments in a restaurant. However, even in the most egalitarian work environment, the executive chef is their boss...period. I don't really care what the relationship is and what the pay scale is, they will always have to answer to some extent to the executive chef about what is on the menu. Whether they do it formally: "What do you think of this new dessert, Chef?" or whether it is informal "Hey pastry chef, I think you should try something with (insert ingredient) on your new dessert menu."

Then, there are the restaurants who can't afford to hire a pastry chef with experience so they either promote the garde manger person to make desserts or they hire a fresh graduate of culinary school to run a pastry program. This undermines culinary school educations a little because we all know that you don't graduate and become a chef in one fell swoop...a little experience should come first, right?

Then, there are the restaurant critics who don't bother to find out if a restaurant has a pastry chef or not...barely talks about the desserts and if they do mention a dessert, certainly don't do it critically. The restaurant critic has some power to initiate the PR ball rolling for some pastry chefs' careers. If a restaurant has a pastry chef, mention their name. If the restaurant doesn't have a pastry chef, make it known that they don't have a pastry chef. Mention the desserts, period! Give the pastry chef, if there is one, something to work towards. Too often this last impression of a restaurant is completely ignored in reviews.

I can't argue with phaelon's query as to whether having more experience makes for better pastry chefs (hot side experience). I think his example taken out of context can be misleading as you have to judge a student's motivation. This person chose to pay for an additional year in school to get a better understanding of all aspects of food. This is what Vadouvan has been trying to explain as well. Those of you who call yourselves CHEFS but can't be bothered to have a decent understanding of every aspect of the kitchen...for shame. I can't agree more. But, phaelon, because this person already had a culinary background didn't guarantee that he would run circles around the pastry students...it was probably more based on his desire to learn, that he was able to run circles around other students. It was probably the case that this person ran circles around his culinary peers because he was just more determined to get more out of his education. As a pastry chef, I try to make sure I keep an eye on what's going on in the kitchen. I always help out when and where I can, be it savory or sweet. I'm butchering fish and watching stocks and helping prep...it is because I have a desire to learn. This is important for anyone in any field. Otherwise, you just stagnate.

edited to add hypothetical situation: I could argue that after completing culinary school for baking and pastry, I could have stayed on for another year to do the culinary program and I would have run circles around the culinary students. I know my work ethic...I know that I had experience in restaurants before attending culinary school and that already being comfortable in that environment would have made it easy to outdo the other students whether I had any culinary (hot side) experience or not. So you can take that example for what it is worth...without any malice

I could go on and on, but this is a distillation of what I just wrote above:

1) basic pastry education at culinary school

2) too quick of a promotion to 'pastry chef'

3) no recognition by peers or industry that what you're doing is important or even specialized

4) burnout

5) quitting the field

6) savory chef with basic education takes over

7) nobody notices as savory chef can make passable creme brulee or clear fruit soup with alginate spheres or (insert savory/sweet dessert-not-pastry name here)

8) nobody wants to take pastry program at culinary school because there's no 'payoff'

9) mid-range restaurants no longer have pastry chefs

10) another emotionally charged thread started on eGullet about the necessity of pastry chefs

11) start over on line one

chicken or egg?

I agree with a lot of points on both sides, but I can't let myself lose sight of the fact that everyone's perception is going to be colored by where they work and at what level...what you have invested in the 'life' so to speak. I agree that being a pastry chef as we know it is going to be more and more limited...but I don't think this is NEWS, I think it is a fact of the business and has been happening as long as there have been restaurants. I think we should embrace the well- known pastry chefs that have already been listed (whether I like their desserts or not) because having high profile peers at all makes it likely that we (pastry chefs in general) can push to be recognized as well.

So let the emotion come into play when you're creating desserts and pushing to get your voice heard on your menu and in the press. That is where it is most worthwhile. Walk the walk...don't cry and pout and point fingers on the internet. Get back in the kitchen and give someone a reason to pay you well and realize you're indispensable and become a mentor to new pastry people so we don't end up without jobs

Edited April 3, 2007 by alanamoana (log)

[phaelon56]

edited to add hypothetical situation: I could argue that after completing culinary school for baking and pastry, I could have stayed on for another year to do the culinary program and I would have run circles around the culinary students. I know my work ethic...I know that I had experience in restaurants before attending culinary school and that already being comfortable in that environment would have made it easy to outdo the other students whether I had any culinary (hot side) experience or not. So you can take that example for what it is worth...without any malice 

No malice perceived. Obviously I am speaking from my very limited experience and with a statistical sampling of exactly two (I have a childhood friend who went through thje same curricular path as the young man I spoke of upthread but she burned out on pastry work after two years... went to Hotel and Restaurant Admin school and left the front end of biz to go to work for a food conglomerate.

I am curious however. I'm guessing based on some of your statements that you are doing / learning /acquring skills on the "hot side". Now that you're out in the field with experience.... would you pursue the path to where you're at any differently than by the way in which you have already arrived there? (assuming that you could go back and follow a path again from an earlier juncture).

[Vadouvan]

Pastry chefs often run their own departments in a restaurant. However, even in the most egalitarian work environment, the executive chef is their boss...period. I don't really care what the relationship is and what the pay scale is, they will always have to answer to some extent to the executive chef about what is on the menu. Whether they do it formally: "What do you think of this new dessert, Chef?" or whether it is informal "Hey pastry chef, I think you should try something with (insert ingredient) on your new dessert menu."

Your post was excellent Alanamoana....

No disagreements but I just have to note that.....

The chef cannot unilaterally fire the pastry chef in any of Stephen Starr's restaurants.

They do not have the authority to do so.

They are compartmentalized departments.

I worked for them for a little over a year.

[phlox]

Yes, the line between dessert and main course, etc, is being blurred, but when I think about how much work our pastry kitchen does, the idea of expecting the hot kitchen to do all of that in addition to their normal workload seems insane. At the restaurant where I work we make all of our own breads, ice creams, sauces and chocolates, in addition to the regular dessert menu and the dessert courses for the tasting menu, which changes almost every day. It's a lot of work, and it's a different kind of work (more can and has to be done ahead of time, for instance), so it makes sense to have a separate team dealing with it.

[alanamoana]

Pastry chefs often run their own departments in a restaurant. However, even in the most egalitarian work environment, the executive chef is their boss...period. I don't really care what the relationship is and what the pay scale is, they will always have to answer to some extent to the executive chef about what is on the menu. Whether they do it formally: "What do you think of this new dessert, Chef?" or whether it is informal "Hey pastry chef, I think you should try something with (insert ingredient) on your new dessert menu."

Your post was excellent Alanamoana....

No disagreements but I just have to note that.....

The chef cannot unilaterally fire the pastry chef in any of Stephen Starr's restaurants.

They do not have the authority to do so.

They are compartmentalized departments.

I worked for them for a little over a year.

←

good to know! i've never been fired, but you never know

[alanamoana]

edited to add hypothetical situation: I could argue that after completing culinary school for baking and pastry, I could have stayed on for another year to do the culinary program and I would have run circles around the culinary students. I know my work ethic...I know that I had experience in restaurants before attending culinary school and that already being comfortable in that environment would have made it easy to outdo the other students whether I had any culinary (hot side) experience or not. So you can take that example for what it is worth...without any malice 

No malice perceived. Obviously I am speaking from my very limited experinece and with a statistical sampling of exactly 2 (I have a ch8ildhood friendn who went through thje same curricular path as the young man I spoke of upthread but she burned out on pastry work after two years... went to Hotel and Restaurant Admin school and left the front end of biz to go to work for a food conglomerate.

I am curious however. I'm guessing based on some of your statements that you are doing / learning /acquring skills on the "hot side". Now that you're out in the field with experience.... would you pursue the path to where you're at any differently than by the way in which you have already arrived there? (assuming that you could go back and follow a path again from an earlier juncture).

←

phaelon56, it is probably a bit off topic, but I understand your curiosity. Here's my experience:

1) curious about entering restaurant world

2) got a job for no pay just to get experience before deciding to attend culinary school

3) they threw me in pastry (I've found this to be typical...pastry tends to be neglected and therefore if there is someone that they don't know what to do with, they'll send them to hang out in pastry)

4) I liked it!

5) started to get paid, moved to the 'warm' side (not hot side because I was making food for the cafe, not the sit down part of the restaurant)

6) became a barrista in the cafe for a while

7) moved to San Francisco to attend culinary school (stayed working for the same restaurant chain in SF as a barrista while in culinary school)

8) graduated in pastry, got a good job in SF (moonlighting as catering person on the side...savory stuff and pastry stuff)

9) got promoted to pastry sous chef TOO SOON

10) got next job as pastry chef of a new restaurant (again, TOO SOON, but learned a lot about savory cooking at this restaurant)

11) moved to New York to take a job as pastry sous (stepped away from too much responsibility) with my first boss from SF (she had moved to NY)

12) two or three more pastry chef and pastry sous chef jobs later, I moved back to the San Francisco Bay area and now I'm teaching baking and pastry.

13) the entire time I was employed in restaurants, I can say that I knew the savory menu almost as well as the pastry menu and would always help where I could on the 'other side'. I've never lost my curiosity for learning as much as I could...but that's my personality.

Teaching is a whole new thing and harder in some ways than working in restaurants. I've done some subbing for other chefs in savory classes as I'm only part time. I usually sub for things like Asian cuisine (since I'm half Chinese and have been cooking Chinese food my whole life). I certainly help out the savory students when it comes time for their final exam (offering them menu help, plating advice, flavor stuff, whatever). Oh, I teach baking and pastry to the 'Culinary Arts' students (this means 'hot side' people). So I know what exposure most hot side people get. It ain't much, it's fast and most of them barely grasp the basics. School is what you put into it and most of these people aren't going far (their choice). They're looking for a job at Google because they work Monday through Friday (mostly 9-5), get great benefits with decent pay and that's all they aspire to. That's fine. I hope and work for the one or two students that look beyond that and hope that I can help them get where they want to be.

I did burn out a bit and I fit what seems to be a typical 'female' situation: I got married and wanted a life - no kids yet - but was tired of working ALL THE TIME. Now I have better hours and better pay, I'm still a pastry chef.

Sometimes I give myself the old "Those who can't DO, teach" talk down. But then I think about the hours (read: blood, sweat, tears) and pay in restaurants and I'm okay with my decisions. Besides, here in Silicon Valley, there really aren't a lot of restaurants that would pay a pastry chef. I get to hang out with some good chefs here at school and do what Vadouvan suggests...I keep learning. I watch what the other classes are making I ask questions of the chef. The learning NEVER STOPS. I don't think I'd change the way I got to where I am.

So, you can see that I see this particular topic from MANY different viewpoints. I see the people entering the biz on one end and I've been there and been spit out on the other end. I'm removed enough to be objective about it and as I said, I really do understand all sides. But I'll reiterate: this is nothing new to the biz. As long as you're good at what you do, there will be a place for you as a pastry chef. You can make a difference regardless of where you're coming from, but it takes your energy, not someone else's.

Edited April 4, 2007 by alanamoana (log)

[alanamoana]

Yes, the line between dessert and main course, etc, is being blurred, but when I think about how much work our pastry kitchen does, the idea of expecting the hot kitchen to do all of that in addition to their normal workload seems insane.  At the restaurant where I work we make all of our own breads, ice creams, sauces and chocolates, in addition to the regular dessert menu and the dessert courses for the tasting menu, which changes almost every day.  It's a lot of work, and it's a different kind of work (more can and has to be done ahead of time, for instance), so it makes sense to have a separate team dealing with it.

←

add to that the high number of chefs who really don't know anything about pastry who always add things on to the pastry prep list. "oh, can you bust out a few extra sheet pans of crackers for tonight?", "I'd love to make a savory sorbet to go with such-and-such, can you help me out with it?" or "I'm trying to make a savory tuile/cookie/garnish/whatever for this dish but can't get it to work, can you come up with a recipe for me...while you're at it, why don't you make them for me every night for service?!"

sound familiar?

[Darcie B]

My perspective is from someone who is not in the industry, but as a customer (I did work as a cook in a small restaurant but am by no means a chef). The customer doesn't care who is called what in the back, he only wants to eat a good meal and doesn't want to know about the hierarchy. So whatever works for a particular restaurant that satisfies the customer is paramount. Maybe it's a "team" environment, maybe its a more formal, traditional hierarchy, whatever works for the level of food, size of restaurant, etc.

I liken this to the "cross-training" concept in many offices. We are doing that here to some extent but have found that it makes many jacks-of-all-trades that still can't effectively move from one position to another. We found that having someone able to fill in is nice, but you can't expect people to learn every aspect of another's job, even if the duties are similar. It just isn't realistic, and the work product suffers as a result. I think the same could be said about restaurants. Sure there is some blurring of the lines, but having specialists will probably result in a better end product. I think joint brainstorming would be beneficial, but still, let each person work on what he/she does best and you'll have more success.

Maybe renaming pastry chefs and calling them "end-of-meal specialists" would be helpful?

[ChefJohnny]

This is quite a great topic! Many interesting posts and rebuttals from many different points of view. I think I may have one that has not been touched upon, that is also a very valid point to the whole "full time in house pastry" discussion.

After leaving The French Laundry with a Sous Chef to open up El Dorado Kitchen in Sonoma, we had no "pastry chef," nor a real pastry "department." Granted, the 5 of us who left TFL were well and professionally trained, so collectively, we could have built a pastry department. But, with the task of opening a new restaurant, the proper time and effort would not have been put forth, and inevitably, the quality would have been up to our standards.

So, we in turn hired a "pastry consultant," who was very well known in the Napa/Sonoma area. Long story short, the desserts "blah" compared to our food (with 6 ex-TFL chefs you come to expect quite a bit.) A few months later, we FINALLY, um, "stole" the current pastry chef from TFL. He is simply a genius. He completely turned around pastry department and turned into something amazing. Finally, our menu was flowing like water.

Now to my point. In a kitchen full of more-than-eager young chefs full of enthusiasm and who want to learn everything they can, having a pastry chef gave us a chance to learn "that side of the line." Im a 4 year grad of J&W so I had a fairly basic knowledge of pastry, but now, I am fully capapble switching sides when need be and feel totally confident in my abilities and my food.

Having Octovio as our Pastry Chef was invaluable to not only our success as a restaurant, but to my growth as a chef. And not only myself, but to the other chef de parties, as well as the sous chefs and Executive Chef.

So, look beyond the food and the bottom line, and to the people who cook your food and work tirelessly, for you.

-Chef Johnny

[icecreamparty]

you can always call us at room 4 dessert

and well carry the station to you

ppy

[Timh]

I guess I'm one of the rarities in that I, as a head chef, also have a strong background in pastry. In both of my apprenticeships(Japan, France) I spent considerable time in pastry, as did all of the other cooks. In all of the restaurants I've worked in the exec. or head chef had strong pastry skills, why wouldn't they? If they don't have pastry experience then they are only a 3/4 chef. I teach all of my cooks the pastry work in their cycling thru the stations to help them become complete cooks, and it helps me round out my staffing and schedualing. Nothing is new under the sun in pastry work and the current "avant garde" pastry is but a fad, and still it all comes back to the fundamentals of basic pastry, regardless of the most modern contraption used.

To the gentleman opening the restaurant, think about a chef with strong pasry skills who can teach one of the sous to help run the department.

[Nathan]

How many people really care about dessert?

I sure as heck don't.

[rich]

How many people really care about dessert?

I sure as heck don't.

←

Don't tell that to Will Goldfarb.

[Sneakeater]

I care.

[Nathan]

heh...I've said that to Will....he doesn't care. I don't think he has a sweet tooth either. I go to Room4Dessert all the time. I just don't eat dessert.

I've never had dessert at Esca...are they any good?

[rich]

heh...I've said that to Will....he doesn't care.  I don't think he has a sweet tooth either.  I go to Room4Dessert all the time.  I just don't eat dessert.

I've never had dessert at Esca...are they any good?

←

I was just teasing you Nathan. We're very similar when it comes to dessert. If I have anything after a meal it's a cheese selection. And when I go to R4D, I order the cheese as well.

Edited April 18, 2007 by rich (log)