Sous Vide: Recipes, Techniques & Equipment (Part 7)

e_monster · August 23, 2010

Pedro, Elie, and e_monster, thanks for your replies. This is the torch of which you all speak, yes? And is this the butane cartridge?

That is the right torch -- you can probably find it for less. My local restaurant supply store had them for under $30. There are also quite a few other brands of butane canisters that fit the torch. If you search the archives for Iwatani, I mentioned another brand that is pretty common. 12 cans for $21 is a good price but probably overkill. I bought four cans of fuel when I got my torch about 8 months ago and I have only gone through slightly more than one can. (It gets used a few times a week). Basically, the torch needs a butane canister designed for using with portable butane stove -- they have a notch in the collar and are pretty common. The brand I use is $8 to $10 for a four pack.

nolnacs · August 23, 2010

Rice bran oil has smoke point 247°C/475°F, heat transfer is much faster than hot air or flame.
I used to exclusively use a VERY hot pan (somewhere around 700F) for searing but for many cuts of meat I find that a torch works better for developing crust without cooking the meat and even for cuts with an even surface (like rib eyes) I have switched to a torch because the result is just as good as with a pan and there is much less work involved.

Do you get less smoke when using a torch instead of a pan? I use a pan right now and the main problem is that the hood above the stove is ancient and practically useless (rental so there isn't much I can do about that), which means that the kitchen quickly fills up with smoke.

JBailey · August 23, 2010

Recently, I have been doing corn on the cob sous vide...shucked, rolled in a little melted butter, vacuumed in a chamber vacuum machine and then in the water bath at 185 degrees for 90 minutes or so. I have enjoyed the results when put immediately on the table for dinner.

With corn in season, I have a couple questions. First, if I did corn on the cob sous vide and then put the bag into a freezer, what would happen to flavor, texture and food safety? I have boiled corn and frozen it off the cob successfully. Would I have to cool off the ears of sous vide prepared corn, change bags and then freeze them? Second, has anyone had success in vacuuming fresh corn on the cob for freezing and cooking later without cooking?

All thoughts appreciated!

**nathanm** · August 23, 2010

I do corn on the cob for 30 minutes at 60C/140F. This takes the raw taste away, but the kernels are still fairly crisp. It comes out very sweet. I usually cut the kernels them off the cob and serve them separatly, but you could serve them on the cob also.

KennethT · August 23, 2010

I'm told that Rick Bayless, the TV chef and Chicago restauranteur, has a signature recipe for sous vide pork carnitas. Does anyone know how he does this and has anyone tried anything similar?

I don't know how he does his pork SV, but I've adapted his Yucatan "pig in a pit" for SV with pork shoulder and it works great. You make his achiote marinate and rub all over, then wrap with banana leaf. I put it in a stovetop smoker for about 20 minutes, and then into the bag... A long time ago (a couple of years) I did it for about 7 hours at 82C, and then did another one at 76C for 12 hours. I thought the 12 hour version was better, and both were hot enough for the banana leaf to impart some flavor. Since that time, I've done other pork shoulder (with no banana leaf) at 155F for 24 hours, and that has been best so far, but I haven't tried it with the banana leaf to see if it imparts any flavor at that temp.

e_monster · August 23, 2010

Rice bran oil has smoke point 247°C/475°F, heat transfer is much faster than hot air or flame.
I used to exclusively use a VERY hot pan (somewhere around 700F) for searing but for many cuts of meat I find that a torch works better for developing crust without cooking the meat and even for cuts with an even surface (like rib eyes) I have switched to a torch because the result is just as good as with a pan and there is much less work involved.
Do you get less smoke when using a torch instead of a pan? I use a pan right now and the main problem is that the hood above the stove is ancient and practically useless (rental so there isn't much I can do about that), which means that the kitchen quickly fills up with smoke.

Yes, there is less (much less) smoke using a torch.

nolnacs · August 23, 2010

I used to exclusively use a VERY hot pan (somewhere around 700F) for searing but for many cuts of meat I find that a torch works better for developing crust without cooking the meat and even for cuts with an even surface (like rib eyes) I have switched to a torch because the result is just as good as with a pan and there is much less work involved.
Do you get less smoke when using a torch instead of a pan? I use a pan right now and the main problem is that the hood above the stove is ancient and practically useless (rental so there isn't much I can do about that), which means that the kitchen quickly fills up with smoke.
Yes, there is less (much less) smoke using a torch.

That is fantastic - an Iwatani blowtorch is going to the top of my shopping list. I'll certainly get fewer complaints from my wife that way.

PedroG · August 23, 2010

Rice bran oil has smoke point 247°C/475°F, heat transfer is much faster than hot air or flame.
I used to exclusively use a VERY hot pan (somewhere around 700F) for searing but for many cuts of meat I find that a torch works better for developing crust without cooking the meat and even for cuts with an even surface (like rib eyes) I have switched to a torch because the result is just as good as with a pan and there is much less work involved.
Do you get less smoke when using a torch instead of a pan? I use a pan right now and the main problem is that the hood above the stove is ancient and practically useless (rental so there isn't much I can do about that), which means that the kitchen quickly fills up with smoke.
Yes, there is less (much less) smoke using a torch.

No chance, SWAMBO does not allow a blowtorch in the kitchen. For minor surface irregularities I use ample oil, and for complicated surfaces I use tongs to hold the meat in all the necessary positions. I use a special non-stick skillet that supports extremely high temperatures, so cleaning is no problem. And I do not mind overcooking the outer 2-4mm, it gives the meat a more traditional temperature and texture gradient to suite my wife's taste.

therippa · August 23, 2010

I've done pulled pork sous vide and it was absolutely delicious. For a carnitas recipe, a quick google search gave me this link - http://sleeplessfoodie.com/?p=139

OliverB · August 24, 2010

don't know if it would make sense to open a separate "review only" thread about SV, this one is getting way too big to root through?

Anyway, I'm curious to hear from those that have the FreshMealsMagic (FMM) Sous Vide 18L Kit setup. I'm not a big fan of the other all in one option, I think this setup is more flexible and personally I like the "science lab" look of it all.

Are you happy with it? Would you buy it again? It's not overly expensive and I'd guess that it creates a nice even environment with the bubbler that's part of the system.

I feel like buying something, either camera gear or this thing, so let's hear from those that have it, especially the things you don't like about it, if there are any.

Thanks!

Oliver

MartinH · August 24, 2010

On Rick Bayless' SV carnitas, this is all I have found: Rick shares his own state-of-the-carnitas concept: sous vide pork (cooked very slowly in a vacuum-sealed packet), shredded, formed into a loaf, chilled, sliced and pan-seared in a stunning modern presentation. (here) Interesting, but no details.

derekslager · August 24, 2010

On Rick Bayless' SV carnitas, this is all I have found: Rick shares his own state-of-the-carnitas concept: sous vide pork (cooked very slowly in a vacuum-sealed packet), shredded, formed into a loaf, chilled, sliced and pan-seared in a stunning modern presentation. (here) Interesting, but no details.

I happened to have this recorded, here's a brief rundown from the show.

Generously season a pork shoulder
Bag with a healthy amount of fresh rendered lard
Cook sous vide for 50 hours at 143f
Remove from bag, shred into pan
Cover with plastic wrap, layer another tray on top
Add weights, transfer to refrigerator
Once cooled/pressed, slice into cubes and brown
Serve with oaxacan black beans, roasted tomato sauce, guac, lime, pickled red onions, microarugula

Looks delicious! Some pics:

Pressed:

Searing:

Plated:

MartinH · August 24, 2010

Thanks derekslager, those pics look awesome.

PedroG · August 24, 2010

don't know if it would make sense to open a separate "review only" thread about SV, this one is getting way too big to root through?
Anyway, I'm curious to hear from those that have the FreshMealsMagic (FMM) Sous Vide 18L Kit setup. I'm not a big fan of the other all in one option, I think this setup is more flexible and personally I like the "science lab" look of it all.
Are you happy with it? Would you buy it again? It's not overly expensive and I'd guess that it creates a nice even environment with the bubbler that's part of the system.
I feel like buying something, either camera gear or this thing, so let's hear from those that have it, especially the things you don't like about it, if there are any.
Thanks!
Oliver

Hi Oliver,

I'll answer your question in the SV-machine topic in a few days when I am back home.

Regards

Pedro

RDaneel · August 24, 2010

I can give another vote for the Iwatani, but it's not going to solve everything. I did SV chicken breasts the past couple days, finished once in a hot skillet with peanut oil just smoking and once with the Iwatani. Here were the pros/cons:

Skillet

Pros: Even, golden browning of the surface in about 25-35 seconds.

Cons: My overactive smoke alarm went off once the chicken hit the pan. Cleaning the stainless steel pain required barkeeper's friend.

Iwatani:

Pros: No mess, quick, nothing to clean but a quick wash of the sheet pan on which I placed the chicken, and torches are fun.

Cons: Browning isn't even. The small protrusions on the surface of the chicken (including pepper if you used it for seasoning), burn before the main surface of the chicken browns. You do get browning, but not as nicely, and the lack of oil also means it is less golden/fried.

The Iwatani was great fun and worked well, but I think you end up with a spotty browning unless you really keep on the heat. For red meat, that's probably not a problem, where a nice mahogany brown is achievable and searing/burning of some little bits isn't as visually obvious. For chicken/duck, I think I'd rather try door number three, which is Doug Baldwin's gulcose wash and sear. I'm hoping to avoid the smoke and mess by cooking at a lower temp. I could probably even do it in a nice nonstick skillet, which would be super easy for weeknight cleanup.

Anyway, for $25, I think the Iwatani makes a great addition to the SV chef's arsenal. Plus, you can always creme brulee with it...

e_monster · August 24, 2010

As I've mentioned elsewhere in the thread, in my opinion, torches are great for beef but not really useful for poultry or pork. For poultry, the best results are hot oil (Heston Blumenthal recommends peanut oil). A good broiler in an oven that has NOT been brought up to temperature works pretty wel for poultry skin thou not as good as hot oil. (If using a broiler, don't use it if you have been cooking in the oven because then you will also overcook the meat while the skin gets crisp).

In my experience, a glucose wash does not work very well for poultry skin. I think it works best for meat (although I have never gotten the same results as I have with a torch, but I might not have been doing it quite right).

I should also point out that using the torch right with beef (which is all that I would use it for) requires a little practice. You want to keep the torch moving. With a little practice (with beef), you can get a nice even crust all over.

I can give another vote for the Iwatani, but it's not going to solve everything. I did SV chicken breasts the past couple days, finished once in a hot skillet with peanut oil just smoking and once with the Iwatani. Here were the pros/cons:
Skillet
Pros: Even, golden browning of the surface in about 25-35 seconds.
Cons: My overactive smoke alarm went off once the chicken hit the pan. Cleaning the stainless steel pain required barkeeper's friend.
Iwatani:
Pros: No mess, quick, nothing to clean but a quick wash of the sheet pan on which I placed the chicken, and torches are fun.
Cons: Browning isn't even. The small protrusions on the surface of the chicken (including pepper if you used it for seasoning), burn before the main surface of the chicken browns. You do get browning, but not as nicely, and the lack of oil also means it is less golden/fried.
The Iwatani was great fun and worked well, but I think you end up with a spotty browning unless you really keep on the heat. For red meat, that's probably not a problem, where a nice mahogany brown is achievable and searing/burning of some little bits isn't as visually obvious. For chicken/duck, I think I'd rather try door number three, which is Doug Baldwin's gulcose wash and sear. I'm hoping to avoid the smoke and mess by cooking at a lower temp. I could probably even do it in a nice nonstick skillet, which would be super easy for weeknight cleanup.
Anyway, for $25, I think the Iwatani makes a great addition to the SV chef's arsenal. Plus, you can always creme brulee with it...

RDaneel · August 24, 2010

I don't recall who asked about the new PolyScience, but I picked mine up on Friday and can share some initial thoughts.

First, the unit seems very well built, securely packaged, and "high end." It appears aimed at the enthusiast rather than the restaurant purchaser (fancy full-color box, Chef Keller's booklet, etc.), though I could see many pros using it.

Second, it appears to work just as advertised. It is very simple to set up and control, with really only a couple options. The large LCD readout is very nice, but really indicates only the set temp and actual bath temp. No Twitter feed, RSS headlines, etc. ;-)

Third, it is very compact and easy to store. It stands on its own because of the shroud, so you can just put in in a cabinet and it uses only about 9 square inches of space. Very nice.

So far, I've done only chicken (twice), but am looking forward to trying beef and duck soon. To anyone considering this unit, I recommend it. The included instructions are minimal, and the "how to" DVD is a joke (it tells you how to turn it on, that's about it), but no one buying this tool is hearing about SV cooking for the first time. Doug Baldwin's youtube videos and book, and this thread, are plenty of education in terms of the basics. I think the SVS folks were right to have Doug do the book, it's a far better and more comprehensive "user guide" than the manufacturer is ever going to write on their own.

One last note about Keller's booklet. It is brief, but full of info, and is worth the read. It covers a bit of SV history and how Keller uses - and thinks about - the technique. He expresses an interesting perspective, sometimes seen in this thread, that SV has the potential to remove some of the risk and, thus, artistry from cooking. But he concludes that this is likely progress, and that WHAT you do with an immersion circulator and the resulting food is far more important than the mere HOW of cooking with it. His recipes combine interesting sauces and other elements with the SV proteins. Can't wait to try a few. I'm not likely eating at the French Laundry any time soon, but I can try to make some of the magic at home...

RDaneel · August 24, 2010

In my experience, a glucose wash does not work very well for poultry skin. I think it works best for meat (although I have never gotten the same results as I have with a torch, but I might not have been doing it quite right).

e-monster, this doesn't surprise me. I think when Doug has used the wash (at least in his YouTube video), he is doing it with a skinless chicken breast. I imagine that works better, and is probably what I'll try...

JBailey · August 25, 2010

I use a Sous Vide Supreme and the amount of water in the tub is fixed, provided you are between the fill lines. On the other hand I also have a Sous Vide Professional. With my SVP, the book says it will work in vessels up to about 30 liters. My question is whether there is a 'minimum' quantity of water that is optimum. Once constant temperature is achieved, product should cook equally well whether I have a 10 liter or a 20 liter or a 30 liter pot. Putting aside energy considerations, should I be switching pots when I have only a couple items to prepare and use something larger when I am doing more items? Also, when does crowding begin to effect quality?

PedroG · August 26, 2010

don't know if it would make sense to open a separate "review only" thread about SV, this one is getting way too big to root through?
Anyway, I'm curious to hear from those that have the FreshMealsMagic (FMM) Sous Vide 18L Kit setup. I'm not a big fan of the other all in one option, I think this setup is more flexible and personally I like the "science lab" look of it all.
Are you happy with it? Would you buy it again? It's not overly expensive and I'd guess that it creates a nice even environment with the bubbler that's part of the system.
I feel like buying something, either camera gear or this thing, so let's hear from those that have it, especially the things you don't like about it, if there are any.
Thanks!
Oliver
Hi Oliver,
I'll answer your question in the SV-machine topic in a few days when I am back home.
Regards
Pedro

Done, see page__view__findpost__p__1757579

PedroG · August 26, 2010

I use a Sous Vide Supreme and the amount of water in the tub is fixed, provided you are between the fill lines. On the other hand I also have a Sous Vide Professional. With my SVP, the book says it will work in vessels up to about 30 liters. My question is whether there is a 'minimum' quantity of water that is optimum. Once constant temperature is achieved, product should cook equally well whether I have a 10 liter or a 20 liter or a 30 liter pot. Putting aside energy considerations, should I be switching pots when I have only a couple items to prepare and use something larger when I am doing more items? Also, when does crowding begin to effect quality?

The larger the water volume, the smaller will be the temperature dip when adding cold food. SVP with 1100W may be too weak to heat a bathtub, but with a well insulated vessel you should be able to use pots larger than 30 liters. A reasonable minimum to me seems to be around 7-9 liters.

**nathanm** · August 26, 2010

As Pedro says, the key is insulation. Most water baths have very low wattage - 1000 to 1800 - which is about like a toaster. A typical home oven is 3500 to 7500 watts. So a water bath is quite weak.

Depending on the insulation of the pot/water container there will be some watts lost. This could be large or small, depends on the level of insulation. The more insulation, the more water you can put in your bath.

THe more water there is, the lower the temperature drop when you put food in which is good. Unless you put proportionately more food in! If the ratio of water to cold food you plunk in the bath is too extreme (i.e. too little water for the food) then you get a big temperature drop and it will take a while (perhaps too long) for the temperature to recover.

I find that 7 liters is about the smallest bath that makes sense, and frankly 20 liters is much better. But no matter what the size, don't jam it too full.

percival · August 30, 2010

Hi, new to this thread and to sous vide cooking. Picked up a SousVide Magic 1500D and wanted to contribute. For anyone interested in the device, I put together a quick video demo of a typical setup.

A breakdown on costs:

SVM controller: $160

Black & Decker 4.5L rice cooker: $50

Reynolds Handi-Vac: $10

Handi-Vac bags: $0.50 per

A super cheap setup. After some experimenting, I'd suggest getting a taller rice cooker so you can vertically float multiple steaks. The thing is, the price jumps drastically up. If you're going past $150, you might as well get FreshMealsSolution's heated water aerator, which you can use in any container, albeit less efficiently.

On my first real cooking attempt, I made a 146 degree egg. Worked perfectly. On my second, I made a 7-bone chuck blade steak. 1.9 lbs., about 3/4" thick, 135 degrees Fahrenheit for 24 hours. I bought a super marbled piece and wanted to see what would happen. No marinade, no seasoning.

The meat came out of the bag smelling like prime rib. I measured about a cup of liquid that came out of the steak. I noticed right off that there was very little fat in the liquid -- a bad sign. Tried reducing it to make a gravy, but the texture and flavor were not pleasant.

The meat itself was very blotchy, as the cut of meat was uneven, with bones poking out here and there. Protein coated parts of the steak, leaving them very unpleasantly gray. I let the meat rest a little to dry off the surface, then seared it on a crazy hot All-Clad pan for 45 seconds per side. I tried 30 seconds initially but the steak was not very flat and didn't brown well. Some areas were untouched, while others were burnt. Note to self: buy a torch next.

Upon cutting, the meat was definitely medium as opposed to my goal of medium rare. During the cooking process, the SVM definitely kept the temp at 135.0. In the initial temperature rise, I noted that the temp did go briefly above 135.0, but never more than 136.0. Cutting into the steak, it released no liquid. The texture was firm, a bit chewy, as if I had grilled it. The real problem was that though the meat was heavily marbled, there were also large junks of fat scattered throughout the meat, not just along the edges, and none of the fat had rendered away, leaving grainy, chewy pieces every other bite. The taste was definitely beefy, non-metallic, though with an almost boiled odor.

I don't think 7-bone cuts would work for steak. For starters, it's just not a very pretty cut of meat. But more importantly, I believe the large islands of beef fat won't really begin to render until around 140 degrees, and by that time, your meat would be completely overcooked. Lowering the temp to 131.0 and doubling the cooking time, I don't think that would really help, either. More time would help the texture of the meat, but it wouldn't do anything about the fat. I'm worried that I might come across this same problem if I were to cook prime rib, which I often find with large islands of fat spread along the interior of cuts at times.

Other concerns I have are with the proteins coming to the surface, and the smell. Do I need to briefly brine the steaks to leech out the water soluble proteins prior to bagging? Or brush off the non-Maillard reaction proteins that have clung to the surface of the steak? And has anyone else thought about the almost boiled smell of the meat soaking in its juices? Has anyone tried debagging the meat to drain out the liquid and dissolved proteins, then rebagging to finish? I imagine I can bag with aromatics, but I'm afraid that would just change the boiled smell to boiled plus aromatics smell.

Edited August 30, 2010 by percival (log)

**nickrey** · August 30, 2010

Interesting post. What quality was the meat you used? The sous vide process will alter the properties of meat cooked long and slow. It is best with "cheaper cuts" such as brisket or cheek which are tough under normal circumstances but can be made fork tender through sous vide cooking. However, one should not mix up cheap cuts with lower quality cuts: No amount of cooking is going to turn a poor quality cut into a good piece of meat.

I personally don't use fatty boned cuts of meat, preferring instead a fat free but well exercised, and hence flavourful, piece of meat.

Again, the liquid from a lower quality cut of meat is not going to be any better than the meat itself.

As a recommendation for the sauce, take the cooking liquid and boil it briefly. Pour off and strain the clear liquid (the osmazome). Heat up your pan and create a maillard effect on the remaining residue. In essence, you are trying to replicate the bits that stick to the pan in frying. Deglaze with wine and reduce. Add some demi-glace or similarly reduced stock as well as the osmazome. Reduce to desired consistency being careful not to reduce too much if you have previously salted your meat. If this is the case, try reaching your desired taste and thicken with a real starch such a potato starch rather than flour. Strain the sauce to remove any residual meat bits. Season and whisk in a few drops of sherry vinegar before serving. If you want a richer sauce add some softened butter pieces, allowing them to melt in the residual heat rather than reheating.

Good luck with your experiments.

Edited August 30, 2010 by nickrey (log)

dougal · August 30, 2010

... During the cooking process, the SVM definitely kept the temp at 135.0. In the initial temperature rise, I noted that the temp did go briefly above 135.0, but never more than 136.0. ...

I didn't spot in your description either what you did to ensure that your bag was fully submerged and vertical, or what you might have done to ensure that what the temperature probe was measuring was typical of the water in the whole bath and thus representative of what the fully-submerged meat was experiencing.

A 2lb chunk of meat is quite big for a fairly small 4 and a bit litre/us-quart pot ...