"Refined Sugar" - feeding it to kids

[markk]

Refined sugar has played a part in a number of threads recently. I have a story to share and question to ask that I don’t think belongs in any of those threads.

I know some people who care for their grandchildren (and some great-nephews and nieces) during the day while the parents work - it's like communal babysitting, in that the other grandparents come over to socialize while they all care for the kids, ages 3 - 10 more or less.

At some point, the kids stop running around, and lump out in front of the tv to watch their shows, or videotapes, and occupy themselves quietly for several hours.

The grandparents always have a gigantic bowl of what I consider to be 'crappy' candy - mini Chunky bars, Hershey's Kisses, etc. on the hallway table. Somebody goes and checks on the kids approximately every 20 minutes, which is good. But on the way, they pass the candy bowl, and take out candies, unwrap them, and then without distracting the kids, who are absorbed in their show, put them in their mouths just like you'd feed a sugar cube to a horse.

This always upsets me. Why would you do that to kids?? (One of the kids has since developed a serious sugar addiction with many bad consequences, as in he'll sneak away at home, eat a large bag or two of candy, and get sick on a daily basis.) I mean, it's not even as if the kids were asking you for candy! I'm wondering what folks think about this - not just those of you who are against refined sugar, but those of you who are in favor of it as well.

[Lonnie]

At some point, the kids stop running around, and lump out in front of the tv to watch their shows, or videotapes, and occupy themselves quietly for several hours.

The grandparents always have a gigantic bowl of what I consider to be 'crappy' candy - mini Chunky bars, Hershey's Kisses, etc. on the hallway table.  Somebody goes and checks on the kids approximately every 20 minutes, which is good.  But on the way, they pass the candy bowl, and take out candies, unwrap them, and then without distracting the kids, who are absorbed in their show, put them in their mouths just like you'd feed a sugar cube to a horse.

This always upsets me.  Why would you do that to kids??  (One of the kids has since developed a serious sugar addiction with many bad consequences, as in he'll sneak away at home, eat a large bag or two of candy, and get sick on a daily basis.) I mean, it's not even as if the kids were asking you for candy!    I'm wondering what folks think about this - not just those of  you who are against refined sugar, but those of you who are in favor of it as well.

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If I were monarch of the world, these people would be put behind bars. (That's only one reason why they won't let me be monarch.) In my opinion, feeding kids this addictive substance is as bad as smoking around them. Don't these people know YET that there's an epidemic of childhood diabetes on? It's one thing to not take responsibility for your own health, but to create addictions in children amounts to abuse, in my not-so-humble opinion. And it's not just diabetes they're dooming these kids to. There's ample evidence that refined carbs contribute to the epidemic of depression we're having in this country, too.

Why are those kids spending "hours" zoning out in front of screens, anyway? Why aren't they up and doing stuff with their hands and/or their imaginations? Ohhh... don't get me going!

Lonnie

[annecros]

I'm wondering what folks think about this - not just those of  you who are against refined sugar, but those of you who are in favor of it as well.

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Well, I can safely say I am neutral on the subject of refined sugar.

The behaviour you are describing is unacceptable, and the parents should step in and resolve it even if they have to pay someone to watch the kids.

[markk]

Why are those kids spending "hours" zoning out in front of screens, anyway?  Why aren't they up and doing stuff with their hands and/or their imaginations?  Ohhh... don't get me going!

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Trying to stay within eG guidelines: quick answer, very sadly that's not within the grandparents generation's possibilities, horrible (and OT) as it is. But I thought the sugar part was relevant to eG and am hoping that sugar detractors and supporters will weigh in on this.

[annecros]

Why are those kids spending "hours" zoning out in front of screens, anyway?  Why aren't they up and doing stuff with their hands and/or their imaginations?  Ohhh... don't get me going!

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Trying to stay within eG guidelines: quick answer, very sadly that's not within the grandparents generation's possibilities, horrible (and OT) as it is. But I thought the sugar part was relevant to eG and am hoping that sugar detractors and supporters will weigh in on this.

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Are you asking for people who support the use of refined sugar to weigh in on the issue of neglect? I don't think the sugar issue can be isolated from the behaviour you are describing.

Wiser minds, I am sure, will weigh in on the topicality.

[markk]

Why are those kids spending "hours" zoning out in front of screens, anyway?  Why aren't they up and doing stuff with their hands and/or their imaginations?  Ohhh... don't get me going!

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Trying to stay within eG guidelines: quick answer, very sadly that's not within the grandparents generation's possibilities, horrible (and OT) as it is. But I thought the sugar part was relevant to eG and am hoping that sugar detractors and supporters will weigh in on this.

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Are you asking for people who support the use of refined sugar to weigh in on the issue of neglect? I don't think the sugar issue can be isolated from the behaviour you are describing.

Wiser minds, I am sure, will weigh in on the topicality.

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Well, I was trying to be fair, and generous (very unusual for me, for sure ); there are many food cultures around the world who drink incredibly sugar-sweetened coffee to start the day, and with astoundingly sweet, gooey, sugary desserts, and they're from one of them, so I don't think they are thinking of it as neglect, and I'm positive that they don't have any idea of the current thinking (amoung us anti-sugars) about its cons. I wondered if any sugar lovers would say that they're not against eating really sugary things such as really sweet desserts, but that they thought that this behavior with kids was wrong for any reason. And I wondered if other people maybe thought I was nuts on this one.

[Lonnie]

Well, I was trying to be fair, and generous (very unusual for me, for sure ); there are many food cultures around the world who drink incredibly sugar-sweetened coffee to start the day, and with astoundingly sweet, gooey, sugary desserts, and they're from one of them, so I don't think they are thinking of it as neglect, and I'm positive that they don't have any idea of the current thinking (amoung us anti-sugars) about its cons....

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Sugar and culture... interesting topic. If I'm not mistaken, where you see tons of sugar being used is in regions that produce or formerly produced sugar cane. I'm thinking mostly the Caribbean. It's one thing if you're eating sugar in an otherwise sane diet of, say, beans, rice, corn, fresh vegetables, fresh fruits, fresh-caught fish, and only moderate amounts of meat. But when you transplant that tendency to eat tons of sugar into a junk food society, where people are so much more likely eat fast "food" or packaged "food" that is devoid of the fiber and hundreds of micro-nutrients found in real food... you're asking for a health disaster. Rate Of Latinos With Diabetes Almost Double Those Of Non-Latino Whites, USA

In this country, you have to be educated, one way or another (family, school) in order to know how to avoid yielding to marketing and eat well instead. You have to go out of your way to know where to find whole food. In some other parts of the world, whole food is still all around you, easy to get at, and it's what everyone is eating. But the number of places unaffected by the marketing of junk food is shrinking. This article is very revealing: Even the French are fighting obesity

Lonnie

[annecros]

Well, I was trying to be fair, and generous (very unusual for me, for sure ); there are many food cultures around the world who drink incredibly sugar-sweetened coffee to start the day, and with astoundingly sweet, gooey, sugary desserts, and they're from one of them, so I don't think they are thinking of it as neglect, and I'm positive that they don't have any idea of the current thinking (amoung us anti-sugars) about its cons.  I wondered if any sugar lovers would say that they're not against eating really sugary things such as really sweet desserts, but that they thought that this behavior with kids was wrong for any reason.  And I wondered if other people maybe thought I was nuts on this one.

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Well, I suppose "abuse" would be a better term than neglect, as neglect implies inaction. Are you saying it is due to ignorance? Maybe you could help them out Mark.

There's nothing wrong with astoundingly sweet, gooey, sugary desserts every once in a while. Hey, ya gotta live a little sometime between the cradle and the grave. What you are describing is something entirely different.

I can't imagine what they are thinking, if anything. I did give my kids an indescriminate week the week after Halloween every year, but they almost never finished all the candy they had poached, and none have a sweet tooth now in adulthood. Son is slightly overweight, but muscle bound on a large frame as well, and with some health issues that have nothing to do with sugar intake.

[markk]

Are you saying it is due to ignorance? Maybe you could help them out Mark.

It's due to ingorance, generation gaps, a severe language barrier, and with them having grown up with sweets (possibly not the refined sugar we have today, though this would not be able to be explained to them and would be deemed irrelevant anyway) there's no absolutely no means, or hope of communication, trust me on this. Their kids, the parents of the kids getting horse-fed the sugar, will absolutely, positively not criticize their parents, nor will they tolerate any criticism of them (that was made perfectly clear to me), so that's really that, btw.

[Lonnie]

Are you saying it is due to ignorance? Maybe you could help them out Mark.

It's due to ingorance, generation gaps, a severe language barrier, and with them having grown up with sweets (possibly not the refined sugar we have today, though this would not be able to be explained to them and would be deemed irrelevant anyway) there's no absolutely no means, or hope of communication, trust me on this. Their kids, the parents of the kids getting horse-fed the sugar, will absolutely, positively not criticize their parents, nor will they tolerate any criticism of them (that was made perfectly clear to me), so that's really that, btw.

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Sometimes people will respond to authority figures, especially in their own language, when they won't respect the ideas of anyone in the family. Assuming the other language is Spanish, something like these might be of use:

Las verdades sobre el azúcar

MSDS Recomienda A La Población A Mantener Sanos Habitos Alimenticios

Still, old habits are hard to break. How long has our own government been telling us to eat healthy foods? In the face of relentless marketing, there's just no way.

Lonnie

[Fat Guy]

How much candy per day are the kids being fed? Are we talking about three small pieces, or thirty? If it's just a few pieces of candy, it hardly seems like abuse. I'd be more concerned that they're watching several hours of TV.

[markk]

It's way closer to thirty than it is to three (and it is gallons of Coke and Sprite all day and with meals). If it were just three, even I wouldn't object. It is sad that they watch so much tv, especially at the cost of people engaging them in activities and reading to them (I used to stop by regularly and do that), but that's the way it is. In one sense, since nobody caring for them all day every day speaks English, it's their only exposure to the language, though.

And Lonnie, I can tell you that the subject is closed. It's not Spanish, but it wouldn't matter if somebody of great authority told it to them in their native language. These are old-fashioned, stubborn people, suspicious of any new-fangled discoveries that tell them their old ways may be wrong. "I eat sugar (substitute: do this, eat that) when I am younger, and look, I turn out great!", accompanied by a fist thumping on the chest, is always the response.

I have a lot of dents in my head (and a dented wall) from this.

Edited February 23, 2007 by markk (log)

[K8memphis]

Well see it all depends on how you're looking at it.

If I was the kid I'd be more than fine with it.

Hell, if someone fed me chocolate I could even watch the golf channel without complaining.. too much.

PS. Hershey's has the Easter color Kisses out now

Edited February 23, 2007 by K8memphis (log)

[Pan]

[...]with them having grown up with sweets (possibly not the refined sugar we have today[...]

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They weren't refining sugar yet in those days?

[Fat Guy]

Okay, so the objection here is to quantity. Reasonable people can agree that it's okay to give some candy to kids. Even my pediatrician, who strenuously advocates organic milk and eggs, is fine with candy as a treat and a reward.

Then the question becomes the acceptable quantity. It sounds like these caregivers are off the charts. Still, I wouldn't necessarily call this abuse -- indeed, I think it's a bizarre sign of the times that anybody would imply that it's abusive to give candy to children. The whole diabetes epidemic issue, while often repeated as fact, is very much still under review, and hardly justifies withholding sugar from all children.

[markk]

[...]with them having grown up with sweets (possibly not the refined sugar we have today[...]

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They weren't refining sugar yet in those days?

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The grandparents grew up in remote, isolated villages, and mostly ate what they grew and caught, and I was under the impression, possibly entirely incorrectly (I'm happy to admit that) that refined sugar in those cases may have been a luxury, though they obviously had honey from somewhere. I'm not an expert in any of that stuff. These people still live close to the land (and need to feel that they do) and grow a lot of what they eat, and make their own wine, and yet they will use processed foods in a way that makes no sense if you hear their reasons for eating the way they do, and which would probably scare the daylights out of them if they could read the ingredients labels and knew what those things were. But cheap candy and soda somehow are fine. Maybe sugar was a luxury to them, and now that they live somewhere that it's ubiquitous, they use it as much as they can, even.

[K8memphis]

I've mentioned before that I had Chef-boy on a special diet as a child and it's a huge pia. They can't ever be normal.

I think the time to be real careful is with baby food & stuff. My baby formula was made with corn syrup and while I'm a genuine sugar junkie I didn't turn out too bad overall. I clean up fairly well.

I knew this one lady who had literally dozens of baby bottles all lined up across the backsplash and alll along the counter single file. She filled them with koolaid and fed the little kid spaghettios. He was this little human blob laying flat on his back in his crib with this 'no one is home' look in his eyes. His teeth were shot. Really it was spooky and sad and that bordered on abuse.

Too much candy becomes it's own problem when the kids get all crabby & stuff. I mean giving the kids candy is a blessing to the ones giving it to them as you describe them. So long as the kids can be mobile when they're not stoned on tv, it's ok.

And enough good things cannot be said about that respectful honor that's being awarded to the grandparents. It will get passed on and this means light years more than anything else. Lovely family. Yeah, the sugar's not any good for the kids but it is a symbol of I want you to have more than I had. Rite of passage. It's very sweet in so many ways.

[markk]

Okay, so the objection here is to quantity. Reasonable people can agree that it's okay to give some candy to kids. Even my pediatrician, who strenuously advocates organic milk and eggs, is fine with candy as a treat and a reward.

Then the question becomes the acceptable quantity. It sounds like these caregivers are off the charts. Still, I wouldn't necessarily call this abuse -- indeed, I think it's a bizarre sign of the times that anybody would imply that it's abusive to give candy to children. The whole diabetes epidemic issue, while often repeated as fact, is very much still under review, and hardly justifies withholding sugar from all children.

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Right. I never called it abuse. Or neglect. What I said was that I found it upsetting.

I'll always remember being in a small store where a young kid was so wound up, he was jumping up and down and twirling in circles. The mother looked down at him and scolded, "If you don't stop that, no more soda for you!"

There's one level on which I sometimes feel that if kids don't crave sugar, and don't ask for it, it's kind of silly to give it to them. I mean, if they like it and it works as a reward, and they don't find the bags of it and o.d. on it when you're not looking and don't become sugar junkies, there's no harm. But if a kid doesn't crave it, why indclude it in his diet?

I had a friend who fed her son as many Dunkin Donuts as he cared to eat for breakfast, and I also always thought this was a strange way to start the day.

Edited February 23, 2007 by markk (log)

[annecros]

Okay, so the objection here is to quantity. Reasonable people can agree that it's okay to give some candy to kids. Even my pediatrician, who strenuously advocates organic milk and eggs, is fine with candy as a treat and a reward.

Then the question becomes the acceptable quantity. It sounds like these caregivers are off the charts. Still, I wouldn't necessarily call this abuse -- indeed, I think it's a bizarre sign of the times that anybody would imply that it's abusive to give candy to children. The whole diabetes epidemic issue, while often repeated as fact, is very much still under review, and hardly justifies withholding sugar from all children.

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Heh.

As a parent, I would consider it abusive to me to have to pick up the kids after a day at work and deal with them after the sugar intake and no outgo in calories. I think you have a kid or two. You do know what the sugar high does to them, I am sure. Not pretty for anybody.

Mark has obviously given up on the situation, and poses a delimma that even those who advocate a moderated use of sugar find objectionable - I guess he understands now though that those who would not deny a kid a candy aren't exactly advocating shoveling M&M's down their throats either.

I do want to note that Mark stated that one child was getting physically ill on a daily basis. Binging and purging on sugar. Yeah, that's a bad place for that child to be, emotionally number one, and physically number two.

K8Memphis, I know a 7 year old, daughter of my step-daughter's friend, who was raised in much the manner you speak of, koolaid bottles. Put to bed with them. Rotten teeth are painful, even for a small child. And that 7 year old is now being medicated because she is "ADHD" and has behavioural problems, etc. Now, I am not going to argue for a second that the koolaid in the bottles was this child's problem. But I do think that a parent who is so self indulgent that they can't bring themselves to teach a child a reasond amount of self discipline - has a huge problem. It is not the Grandparent's responsibility. It is the parent's responsibility. I am normally not an anti-sugar advocate, people have all the right in the world to make their own decisions, but I am prochild.

Edited February 23, 2007 by annecros (log)

[Chris Amirault]

Different kids -- and adults -- react to different foods in different ways. Sugar, caffeine, chocolate: definitive lines cannot be drawn here. Furthermore, raising the specter of diabetes and obesity seems a way to justify moral outrage with quasi-scientific research.

Indeed, I'm not sure that there are very many options for respondents to this topic besides expressing moral outrage or requesting some measure of restraint. As someone who deals with actual violence against children in my work, I'm in the latter camp, and I'd urge us to keep an eye on how we use terms like "abuse" when it comes to Hershey's Kisses.

[SushiCat]

I don't want to presume here, but overall I find this quite astonishing. Would you all be any less outraged if the kids were getting apple pieces popped into their mouths? What seems WRONG to me is just putting a piece of food in someone's mouth while they are (supposedly) otherwise occupied!

I'm not against sugar, I believe moderation is key. Having the candy available is one thing, but unwrapping it and popping it into their mouths, in my mind is teaching very bad eating habits. As a society that has created so many quick to consume calories devoid of nutrition, I think that there is a responsibility on all of us to try to remember and teach/remind others that we eat when hungry. To feed someone while they are distracted is odd and wrong.

I'm stopping here as I don't want to get off on a tangent or on a non eG approved tangent at least!

[JeanneCake]

Who keeps filling up the stupid candy bowl?!

The grandparents feel they are being criticized; the parents are getting free day-care (it's a pay me now or pay me later situation - the pay later will be higher dental bills and medical expenses - the pay me now is paying for an un-related care giver) so I can't imagine this situation will change any time soon. If the parents don't care, there's not much that can be done about it. I feel badly for the kids.

An older generation of child care-givers can be a tough crowd - just think about the re-education process with the "back to sleep" campaign to cut down the incidence of SIDS - this is similiar because they're using the same "we did it to you, and you're ok" rationale. Regardless of what we think, these kids are still going to be force fed junk. I'm surprized they have any appetite for their regular meals after hours of candy snacks!

[markk]

Who keeps filling up the stupid candy bowl?!

Why, grandma and grandpa do. When grandpa isn't planting vegetables (which he farms without pesticides or chemicals) or making his own wine, he's out chasing the sales on the cheapest jumbo bags of candy at the CVS.

As K8memphis so touchingly pointed out, "Yeah, the sugar's not any good for the kids but it is a symbol of I want you to have more than I had." Since they don't know, and can't imagine that it's bad for them in such quantities, I'm sure that's what they're thinking.

[annecros]

Who keeps filling up the stupid candy bowl?!

Why, grandma and grandpa do. When grandpa isn't planting vegetables (which he farms without pesticides or chemicals) or making his own wine, he's out chasing the sales on the cheapest jumbo bags of candy at the CVS.

As K8memphis so touchingly pointed out, "Yeah, the sugar's not any good for the kids but it is a symbol of I want you to have more than I had." Since they don't know, and can't imagine that it's bad for them in such quantities, I'm sure that's what they're thinking.

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So grandma and grandpa are comforting the child when he or she becomes physically ill? The physical illness is what put me over the edge a bit, and should be clueing somebody in that is in a caregiver position that something is wrong with the child's diet. There are people out there supporting a foie gras ban who think it is cruel to stuff geese.

Now, I have had my say, as a supporter of responsible sugar use, and will back out of the discussion.

[Fat Guy]

I think you have a kid or two. You do know what the sugar high does to them, I am sure.

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As far as I know, there has never been any proof of a sugar-hyperactivity connection. Plenty of parents believe it exists, but scientific studies don't support the conclusion:

Any parent that has ever witnessed the aftermath of a child's birthday party has probably blamed sugar for the mayhem that followed the cake and ice cream. But the fact is that sugar may actually be an innocent victim of guilt by association.

Experts say the notion that sugar causes children to become hyperactive is by far the most popular example of how people believe food can affect behavior, especially among young children.

However, despite years of debate and research on the relationship between food and behavior, no major studies have been able to provide any clear scientific evidence to back up those claims.

http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art...rticlekey=52516