The Sourdough Starter Topic

[Martin Fisher]

I am trying to develope some starter for sourdough bread. It didn't work the first time and I have started a new batch today. Are you saying that if I buy some grapes with a white film on them and throw the skins in my nascent starter it will help it along?

 

 

There are techniques to significantly increase your chances of creating an acceptable indigenous starter.

 

See this post.... http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/136752/sourdough-starter#post_939398

[cyalexa]

Patti, I keep a stiff rye starter on my counter in a covered jar. I make a new one weekly. When I want to bake I use a little of the rye starter to make a 50% hydration white starter.

 

I switched to a rye starter as a result of this blogpost: http://bewitchingkitchen.com/2013/08/09/sourdough-blues/

 

If you have not already done so, you may want to visit http://www.thefreshloaf.com/

[Smithy]

I'm in. I've been hesitating because the starter will be have to go untended for around 3 weeks, beginning sometime the last week of October. Tonight I decided to give it a go anyhow. If it's alive and bubbling in 2 weeks, maybe it will survive 3 weeks in a fridge without me.

Unbleached all-purpose white flour, and tap water, mixed together in a glass jar. I weighed 50g each but it's such a thick paste that I've added a touch more water to make it stirrable. It is definitely not worth a photo at present.

[heidih]

I am trying to develope some starter for sourdough bread. It didn't work the first time and I have started a new batch today. Are you saying that if I buy some grapes with a white film on them and throw the skins in my nascent starter it will help it along?

 

This belongs in the bread topic but I felt compelled to answer you - this is an article about Nancy Silverton's starter (of the famous La Brea Bakery)  http://www.food.com/recipe/nancy-silverton-s-grape-sourdough-starter-316306

[Norm Matthews]

Just remember that there are thousands of varieties of yeast.  What is indigenous to your area might or might not be the same kind on the grapes that makes good bread for La Brea Bakery.  Also there are some California red grapes that won't grow in Canada and some native American grapes that don't make good wine.

[cakewalk]

I'm in. I've been hesitating because the starter will be have to go untended for around 3 weeks, beginning sometime the last week of October. Tonight I decided to give it a go anyhow. If it's alive and bubbling in 2 weeks, maybe it will survive 3 weeks in a fridge without me.

Unbleached all-purpose white flour, and tap water, mixed together in a glass jar. I weighed 50g each but it's such a thick paste that I've added a touch more water to make it stirrable. It is definitely not worth a photo at present.

If the starter works, instead of dumping half before you feed it, freeze it before you go away. Then you can thaw it and start the feeding process again, it should be fine.

[patti_h]

This is such a great thread! Cyalexa- thank you for the links. I have read on the Fresh Loaf from time to time but I don't find the site real user friendly (to me). I really appreciate that blog post because I may have been in tears from a kitchen flop from time to time, especially when I was first married. (I even managed to explode a corningware casserole dish)!

My starter is not looking so bubbly today...I think I will refresh with rye this evening and hopefully bake tomorrow? Can anyone answer this: when in the process do you use your starter to bake- right after you feed it, or when it is due for another feeding? Or does that part not really matter?

Cakewalk- I think freezing starter instead of dumping it is a great idea. If mine gets bubbly again I'll freeze the portion I. Supposed to discard.

Mick, if you care to share any recipes, I would love them. I am not a very experienced bread baker, but I would like to be! I have been baking my family's sandwich bread for the last couple of months, other than that it was a challah here, a pain a'la ancient there..... All passable but could be much better!

[patti_h]

Cyalexa- this is probably a dumb question, but how do you make your white starter? 100% white flour, 50% water, and how much rye starter? Do you bake right after mixing it, or do you let it rest before baking with it?

[Lisa Shock]

Your best bet is to only work with organic, unbleached flour for the first two weeks. That will have yeast in it. Once it gets going, commercial flour will work just fine.

[Chelseabun]

Its not very vigorous.  Its on day four and has had two feeds.  It might be some time before I am baking with this starter.

 

[ElsieD]

Mine has started to produce small bubbles. It has had one feeding and will get another one tomorrow. Hopefully, this one will live. Chelseabun, yours looks pretty good.

Edited October 14, 2014 by ElsieD (log)

[Chelseabun]

Mine has started to produce small bubbles. It has had one feeding and will get another one tomorrow. Hopefully, this one will live. Chelseabun, yours looks pretty good.

Thanks ElsieD.  It is healthy and the aroma is ok if not a bit 'complicated'. These starters though make up to a thick paste consistancy dont you think? the bubble holes in mine seem to stay there so it looks more acive than it probably is.  I am really looking forward to baking off a loaf with this yeast. Sorry your last starter died.  I am very pleased this one is doing ok for you. What flour are you using please? mine is high protein white. Im using bottled water as our tap water i think is has a high level of chlorine

Edited October 14, 2014 by Chelseabun (log)

[cyalexa]

Cyalexa- this is probably a dumb question, but how do you make your white starter? 100% white flour, 50% water, and how much rye starter? Do you bake right after mixing it, or do you let it rest before baking with it?

 

Patti,

 

I dissolve 6g of my rye starter in 20g water, add 20g AP flour and mix well. I cover this and leave it on the counter about 18 hours then proceed to use it as "active starter" for baking.  

 

I will make a white flour starter for baking anytime other than the first 36 hours after refreshing my rye starter. I prefer to have the rye starter be several days old before I use it to make a white flour starter but don't always plan well enough in advance and have had acceptable results when it is only 36 hours old.

 

My favorite sourdough recipe is a slight modification of the Tartine basic county dough. The original should be easy to find online, I know it's on the Bewitching Kitchen blog. If you want my modifications send me a PM with your email address and I will send it as an attachment. 

[bethesdabakers]

Cyalexa - I have to admit that I am totally confused by your advice to Patti. Why, if you were making white bread, wouldn't you keep a white starter? Why would it take 18 hours to make an active starter if you added white flour to your rye starter? Why would it take 36 hours for you rye starter to become active after refreshing? This is totally contrary to my experience.

[ElsieD]

Thanks ElsieD.  It is healthy and the aroma is ok if not a bit 'complicated'. These starters though make up to a thick paste consistancy dont you think? the bubble holes in mine seem to stay there so it looks more acive than it probably is.  I am really looking forward to baking off a loaf with this yeast. Sorry your last starter died.  I am very pleased this one is doing ok for you. What flour are you using please? mine is high protein white. Im using bottled water as our tap water i think is has a high level of chlorine

Mine isn't looking all that great at the moment. I will feed it shortly and if it doesn't look like something tomorrow I will likely discard it and give up. Or for a lark, I may just add in a bit of yeast to see what happens. I use bread flour and have been using tap water. Your post has me wondering if chlorine in the water is a problem here as well. Our water quality in this city is very good but they also use chlorine. I do have some Perrier so maybe I should try a third and final batch if this one doesn't turn out and use that as the water source?

Cyalexa, I went to the blog you mentioned and while the blogger talked about starter, I could not find how she said to go about starting one.

Mick, are you out there? Any hints?

[cyalexa]

Cyalexa - I have to admit that I am totally confused by your advice to Patti. Why, if you were making white bread, wouldn't you keep a white starter? Why would it take 18 hours to make an active starter if you added white flour to your rye starter? Why would it take 36 hours for you rye starter to become active after refreshing? This is totally contrary to my experience.

I don't keep a white starter because I don't want to keep my starter in the refrigerator and I don't want to feed it every day. The stiff rye starter can live happily on the counter for a week without feeding. The 100% hydration white starter, made from a piece of my stiff rye starter, takes about 18 hours to reach its maximum activity. I don't like a heavy sourness so I only use a small amount of the rye starter to make the white starter. Perhaps that is why it takes so long to reach maximum activity. Once it is highly active, I use the white starter to make a levain, according to whatever recipe I am using. I suppose I could make the levain from the rye starter but it is very stiff and I would have to make adjustments in the levain recipe to get the proper hydration. I am math challenged and find it easier to use the rye starter to make a 100% hydration white starter, then proceed to make my levain. This method also reassures me that I am using an active starter as activity is not visible in my rye starter. I have used the rye starter to make other starters as early as 24 hours after it has been refreshed, but have better results if I wait at least 36 hours.

 

I do not profess to be an expert, I am merely reporting on what has worked for me. 

[cyalexa]

Cyalexa, I went to the blog you mentioned and while the blogger talked about starter, I could not find how she said to go about starting one.

 

 

She made her original starter according to a recipe by Dan Lepard, before she started blogging. I imagine the technique is available online but I haven't looked. The link I am providing describes how and why she switched to a rye starter. She shared some of her "Dan" starter with me and when she switched to a rye starter, I did as well.

 

http://bewitchingkitchen.com/2013/08/09/sourdough-blues/

[Chelseabun]

My white flour starter was healthy with a very good if not tangy aroma.  However, it was very (and I mean very) slow (which could be a great positive as that could lead to a great flavour). However,  was not convinced it could be vigorous enough for me to make a loaf with it. So, it has now gone (alas).

 

Is everyone using a rye starter to then make a white starter? Is no-one just making a white starter? I am sure they dont do that in San Francisco? It seems like adding an unnecessary extra step - but if it works, then i guess it is ok.  I might try it next time, as I have a bag of rye flour waiting to be used.

Edited October 15, 2014 by Chelseabun (log)

[cakewalk]

You all might be following this already, but just in case: http://www.seriouseats.com/2014/10/breadmaking-101-the-science-of-baking-bread-and-how-to-do-it-righ.html

 

Serious Eats has been running a series on bread baking, and I think it is the best things they've ever done. The link above is for today's entry, which contains links to previous sections. Highly recommended. It's not a sourdough loaf (so this may be the wrong thread), but so much of the information will be helpful in baking any loaf that I really recommend reading through his posts.

[Smithy]

Update on my starter, which is a white flour only starter: last night it was roughly double in size and showing some bubbles, but didn't have much odor other than a typical flour odor. I split it in half and added 50g each of water and flour. Look at the results!

The one on the left was fed with standard King Arthur unbleached all-purpose white flour. It smells slightly tangy and is showing some bubbling activity. The one on the right was fed with an organic unbleached AP flour. It smells very tangy and has a lot of bubbles; it's doubled in size overnight. How long do I keep going on this before I bake with it?

[bethesdabakers]

Fine looking bread, Cyalexa. And thanks for explaining your methods.

 

The point of this thread was to show how simple it is to make a starter just using flour and water, and to go on to make bread with basic resources and even in unfamiliar territory. Then to show what happens when you liberate your starter from the fridge after four weeks and have to bake for customers within a couple of days. I suppose I should have devoted more time to the thread because it is already disintegrating before my very eyes.

 

To recap, I demonstrated (with numerous boring photos) what you are likely to see in the first week or so of tempting flour and water to ferment. Nothing is very certain, a little panic sets in, but a point is reached where it either flares up or fades away. Elsie, I really think that your mixture, having shown considerable signs of activity, should be given more chance – adding commercial yeast is like starting a fire with petrol.

So, what should you do when you get to the stage (somewhere between 7-9 days) where your mixture is clearly active but immature and somewhat erratic. Don’t refrigerate it – feed it once a day at a ratio of 1:1:1 (starter: water: flour by weight) keeping the quantities manageable (1=50g?). Use some to bake a loaf – we’ll come back to that.

 

After several days of daily feeding, when it seems to be relatively stable, if you are not going to bake regularly you can store it in the fridge.

 

Assuming you do, 24 hours before you want to bake (let’s say Friday morning for mixing Saturday morning) take your starter out of the fridge and refresh enough to provide the amount you want for your dough plus some to make an ongoing starter. In the evening refresh it again, putting some aside in the fridge for future bakes.

 

If you are a frequent baker, keep the starter at room temperature and feed every couple of days. Refresh it eight hours before (or overnight) you want to mix your dough.

 

So,  here’s  a simple recipe for when you think your starter is ready to produce a loaf – be brave, you won’t know until you try. For an 800g loaf (baked weight):
 

Strong White Bread Flour  518g  100%

Water  306g  59%

Starter  137g  26.4%

Salt  8g 1.5%

 

Let’s stick with the Friday/Saturday model. You took your starter out of the fridge Friday a.m. and refreshed it. Friday evening you refreshed it again saving some for later use.

 

Saturday morning. Mix all the ingredients in a mixing bowl using your hands (you’ll never learn anything about dough unless you use your hands). Soon as the mixture comes together get it on the work surface and knead it ten times. Cover and let it rest for a few minutes. Repeat the ten kneads and rest. Repeat a third time. Oil a plastic box or similar container, roughly shape it into a ball, drop it in the box and cover so it doesn’t dry out.

 

Let the dough ferment for four hours at room temperature. If you’re feeling keen, give it a stretch at the end of the first three hours – take it out of the box stretch it as far as it will go without stressing, fold it over itself in thirds, stretch it in the opposite direction, repeat the folds, return to the box.

 

At the end of four hours, shape the dough into a ball and place, seam side up in a proving basket that has been floured with rye flour. Cover with a cloth and plastic. Use a tea towel lined colander or a bowl if you don’t have proving baskets. Leave at room temperature for three and a half hours.

 

Heat the oven to about 210C. Turn out the dough onto a rye-floured baking sheet, slash the top, bake for about 50 minutes.

 

Yes, I could add more detail and add a few refinements but fundamentally that’s all there is to making top quality bread.

 

So, before you head for big names, mixers, baking stones, dutch ovens, using steam, adding yeast, making bigas, poolish, etc., etc., just give it a try.

[cakewalk]

Ah, we are wild bunch, like overfed starter!! You might have to whip us into cold storage to retard the growth!

 

But seriously, if there's one thing I can see on this thread, it's that everyone IS giving it a try. We may go off on tangents occasionally, but we still recognize the direct route. (And very much appreciate your guidance.)

[ElsieD]

I agree with Cakewalk's sentiments and thank Mick for this topic. Without it, I would never have even attempted this. So I still have my second batch and will be patient with it. I figure as long as it has some bubbles on the surface it must still be a bit alive. Before Mick posted his latest, I was going to turf it but my husband said, why don't you give it a pinch of sugar and see what happens? So, that is what I did. I probably shouldn't have, but there you go. Later on I threw out half of it and fed it again. I did not add any yeast as I had threatened to do earlier. I shall proceed as recommend - throw out half, then feed with 50 gms. Each water and flour on a daily basis.

Nancy, did yours on the right collapse after it doubled? You have some nice bubbles going there.

Elsie

[Chelseabun]

Ah, we are wild bunch, like overfed starter!! You might have to whip us into cold storage to retard the growth!

 

But seriously, if there's one thing I can see on this thread, it's that everyone IS giving it a try. We may go off on tangents occasionally, but we still recognize the direct route. (And very much appreciate your guidance.)

 

Thats 100% correct. We gave it a go! Mine lasted over four days before being cast into the bin (in yeast terms, four days is many thousands of generations LoL). So it had a good life!

Edited October 15, 2014 by Chelseabun (log)

[cyalexa]

The point of this thread was to show how simple it is to make a starter just using flour and water, and to go on to make bread with basic resources and even in unfamiliar territory. Then to show what happens when you liberate your starter from the fridge after four weeks and have to bake for customers within a couple of days. I suppose I should have devoted more time to the thread because it is already disintegrating before my very eyes.

 Mick, please accept my sincere apology if I have contributed to the disintegration of your thread. I was only trying to participate and offer an alternative approach. I'm sure I would enjoy taking one of your classes. While I have been known to travel to a food event, across the pond may be more than I can manage. Regards, Cindy