Soup Dumplings (Xiao Long Bao) --Cook-Off 26

[Pam R]

Nonetheless, I will plow on with my chicken version!

I have cousins living in Beijing - they don't eat pork and have been having some problems in restaurants.

But I will not let that deter me! Next week - Chicken Soup Dumplings (I hope).

[Pan]

Will they be happy with my kosher version? 

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Sadly, no. I have had beef xiaolongbao before and rather disliked them.[...]

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Are those made by Muslims? Speaking of which, Pam, your relatives should be patronizing halal Muslim establishments in Beijing, of which there are more than a few.

[miladyinsanity]

Will they be happy with my kosher version? 

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Sadly, no. I have had beef xiaolongbao before and rather disliked them.[...]

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Are those made by Muslims? Speaking of which, Pam, your relatives should be patronizing halal Muslim establishments in Beijing, of which there are more than a few.

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Not necessarily, I don't think. I've seen them here in restaurants specializing in xiaolongbao and accompanying dishes.

Re: wrappers. I don't think the wrapper has eggs in them. Maybe we should mosey on to the China forum and ask Ah Leung?

Pam, if it's not too late, the minced meat is supposed to be raw.

[Pam R]

Michael - good suggestion - though shellfish is still an issue.

May, not too late at all.

I did make chicken stock though. It's cooling (and hopefully firming up) in the fridge now. I forgot the dumpling wrappers at work though - so I can't get any further today. Stock tasted good though (threw in some green onion, ginger, garlic and soy).

[JasonZ]

If you are able to perfect this dish -- which is no easy feat -- do you realize how many Chinese people you will have beating down your door?

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Will they be happy with my kosher version?

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Absolutely ... while the Chinese don't follow the same definition of "vegetarian" as Jews (see Eileen Fei-Lo's Chinese Chicken Cookbook, in which she reminsces about her grandmother, a devout Buddhist -- Buddhism apparently considers oysters as permissible in their vegetarian cuisine ...), they will certainly appreciate an unusual taste and will add it as a dish to a broader menu of items.

In addition, those of us who follow a vegetarian cuisine, whether based on ethical or religious grounds, will definitely appreciate another wonderful addition to what we can enjoy.

Finally, remember that the typical Chinese meal is much more based on vegetables and rice (and much less on meat, whether land or sea based) than ours is -- we focus on the meat in quantity, while classic Chinese uses the meat as a highlight with other products.

One of the sad things about the rapidly increasing wealth of China today is that it is accompanied by Western-like changes in the proportion of meat protein they consume and is now making China the most rapidly growing country for the diseases of the developed West ... heart disease, diabetes, obesity, and cancer ...

To stay on thread, I'm going to try to create a Hunan-Sichuan style dumpling. Since Hunan has a classical soup (Hot and Sour) and Sichuan has a classical dish that could serve as a filling (Mapo Dofu), and there are vegetarian versions of both (Fuschia Dunlop in Land of Plenty gives the classic version of Mapo Dofu, but suggests replacing the pork with mushrooms for a veg version; and I have used the strong mushroom broth recipe from Deborah Madison's Vegetarian Soups in place of chicken stock), I think I can create a "Strange Taste" Hunan Sichuan soup dumpling ... will give you updates on progress ...

[JasonZ]

Re: wrappers. I don't think the wrapper has eggs in them. Maybe we should mosey on to the China forum and ask Ah Leung?

Pam, if it's not too late, the minced meat is supposed to be raw.

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Ah Leung is one of my most respected mentors on the China Forum -- I've sent him a pm, so let's see what advice he can provide. I recall seeing his illustrated recipe for dumplings, but not one for soup dumplings. In the dumpling thread, there have been some amazing illustrations for folding, especially pleated dumplings ... I'll see if I can find the particular posting -- I know soup dumplings are not pleated and in fact it probably wouldn't hold the soup very well, but it is an astounding post ...

Edited October 22, 2006 by JasonZ (log)

[JasonZ]

From a previous dumpling thread:

Vegetarian Fillling

[hzrt8w]

Hi everybody! I don't usually follow most threads in the Cooking forum because I didn't have enough spare time. Thank you to JasonZ who pointed out this interesting discussion.

I want to make some comments here:

So, can I just use packaged dumpling wrappers?  Or do I need to make them myself (if so, recipes?)  Is it a rice flour wrapper or regular flour?

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To make the wrapper for XiaoLongBao, the best is to roll your own wrapper. Packaged wrappers would not do justice. They will be very hard to pleat. Fresh dough is much softer and stickier, and is much easier to pleat. Also, package wrappers are typically not elastic enough.

The dough is very basic: just high gluten flour and water.

Pam, I'm off to the library either this evening or tomorrow to look for cookbooks with recipes.  A quick perusal on line indicates that the dough calls for high gluten flour, which I can't seem to find.

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High gluten flour can be found in Asian grocery stores. I bought mine in 99 Ranch market and similar ones. The All Purpose flour may not have the glutinous characteristic desired to make the elastic skin. One fear is the wrapper will break during steaming (which will be no good for XiaoLongBao).

Is there a difference between 'dumpling' and 'bun' here?  When I see bun I'm thinking of the steamed egg buns I get at dim sum - which is obviously different from a dumpling... 

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Dumpling is usually wrapped with flour dough (or wheat starch dough in Cantonese dim sum), some with eggs added, some without. Buns are usually steamed bread. The dough usually either has yeast or baking soda added to generate tiny bubbles to make them soft and fluffy.

i've seen both methods: cube of gelatinized stock covered with the filling OR diced gelatinized stock mixed in with the filling.  i like the idea of it being a more homogenized mixture.  also, the recipes i've seen are mostly chicken (feet) stock based but use pork skin to gelatinize the mixture.  so i don't see it being blasphemous to use pure chicken stock if you have a particularly rich batch.

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Chicken feet will make the soup more jelly-like. If you don't want to use chicken feet, you may also use some packaged "gelatin". I usually pick them up in Asian grocery stores but I think you can also find it in regular grocery markets too. By itself, the taste is bland. It is good to jell up the soup you have prepared even in room temperature. But the soup will return to liquid when steamed - inside the wrapper, which is the key to making XiaoLongBao.

Sadly, no. I have had beef xiaolongbao before and rather disliked them. I think most Chinese (except those from the frigid northern and western parts of the country) strongly prefer pork over beef. For the Chinese, pork is much more loved than it is in America and even most parts of Europe. The term rou, meaning meat, refers by default to pork. For example, you would refer to pork dumplings as simply rou, but if they were beef you would specifically specify that they are niu rou (cattle meat).

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The term rou referring to pork specifically goes back to the rural China in the old ages. Oxes are raised to plow the land and not as food. The most common animals raised in farms strictly as food were pigs and chicken. Therefore rou, though literally just means "meat", has an implied meaning of pork unless specifically called-out by other adjectives.

XiaoLongBao, like most dim sum items, will not travel well. The best is to eat them right off the steamer while the soup inside is hot and juicy. Even if you wait more than only 15 minutes to eat, the soup inside begins to jell up again and is not as desirable.

By the way, the "long" in XiaoLongBao doesn't mean "dragon". It has a literal meaning of "the bamboo steamer". So the translation is "dumpling in the little bamboo steamer". I know where the confusion comes from, thinking that "long" means "dragon". They sound the same (in both Mandarin and Cantonese). But they are two different words. The "long" as in "the bamboo steamer" is a different word than the "long" as in "dragon". The former word "long" has the "bamboo" radical on the top. But most Chinese in the Mainland take the lazy route and skip that part.

Edited October 23, 2006 by hzrt8w (log)

[hzrt8w]

The following weblink has very detailed illustration on how to rough the dough and pleat the soup dumpling. The narration is in Chinese but you can learn a lot by just looking at the pictures.

They showed 3 methods of making the gelatins:

1. Use pork rind

2. Use chicken feet

3. Use chicken wings

Xiao Long Bao Tutorial

[OnigiriFB]

I <3 Ah Leung! I still want to try my hand at this one. Might not be til next week though.

[Pam R]

Hi everybody! 

Welcome to the cook-off

Packaged wrappers would not do justice. 

I completely hear you - but I'm just going to try it the first time.. I promise!

Chicken feet will make the soup more jelly-like.  If you don't want to use chicken feet, you may also use some packaged "gelatin". 

I can't get kosher chicken feet - and gelatin is out. But I went ahead with the chicken wings (about 9 wings and one carcass).

Soup after everything was added, and then after it simmered away for a couple of hours:

And finally, strained and chilled:

Like jiggly chicken jello.

So - I'll mix some of this with.. some ground (?) chicken and scallions? Anything else?

(Ah Leung - the link didn't work for me )

[hzrt8w]

Hi everybody! 

Welcome to the cook-off

Oh, no... does posting comments on this thread implicate me as a participant?

That chicken-feet jelly looks beautiful, Pam!

So - I'll mix some of this with.. some ground (?) chicken and scallions?  Anything else?

(Ah Leung - the link didn't work for me  )

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Ginger. Definitely mix in grated ginger with your ground chicken meat.

The link works fine for me. Perhaps try to type that in yourself:

http://eatingchinese.org/xlbtutor/xlbtutor.html

Edited October 23, 2006 by hzrt8w (log)

[Pam R]

Now it works. How strange. It's great though!

(Oddly, the only websites that have been working for me tonight are eGullet.... do you think that says something?)

I'm going to go through the tutorial - thanks!

[snowangel]

Pam, what are you going to use for wrappers?

[Pam R]

These!

Well, not the green ones. If you scroll down and click on dumpling wrappers - I'm using those. I know I know. I should make them. I'm waiting for you (Susan) to show me how to make the wrappers (and I sell these, so I can just grab a package tomorrow).

[snowangel]

Since Pam has raised the bar for me, can someone provide a rough translation for the dough recipe? What kind of flour? High gluten, all-purpose, or bread flour? Soup dumplings are on the docket here for later this week, once the kids are back in school (holiday here).

[Kent Wang]

This is a beautiful sight. By how much did you reduce the stock?

[hzrt8w]

Well, not the green ones.  If you scroll down and click on dumpling wrappers - I'm using those.  I know I know.  I should make them.   I'm waiting for you (Susan) to show me how to make the wrappers    (and I sell these, so I can just grab a package tomorrow).

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Keep in mind that those wrappers are meant for wrapping Shanghai wontons. I think you would likely run into difficulties trying to curve them up and close out the top when pleating.

Edited October 23, 2006 by hzrt8w (log)

[hzrt8w]

Since Pam has raised the bar for me, can someone provide a rough translation for the dough recipe? What kind of flour?  High gluten, all-purpose, or bread flour?  Soup dumplings are on the docket here for later this week, once the kids are back in school (holiday here).

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Here is a quick translation of this first page (dough making):

http://eatingchinese.org/xlbtutor/drill01.jpg

Corresponding to the narration on the numbered pictures:

Use medium gluten flour. No yeast. Use water to mix the flour and repeatedly knead with cold water to make the dough. The key is to make a wrapper that is thick at the center and thin along the rims.

1. Use medium gluten flour 250cc. Pour in to a mixing bowl. Add 120cc off old water into the center (form a small depression).

2. Use chopsticks to mix the flour.

3. Use 5 fingers, from the outside to the inside, start kneading. If necessary, add a bit more water.

4. Keep folding and kneading.

5. Make the dough into a ball shape.

6. Leave the dough in the container, cover with a sheet of plastic wrap or a piece of wet cloth. Leave for about 10 minutes.

[Pam R]

At the beginning of the day I really was thinking that I might try making the wrappers myself. It's been such a long day that I've given up on it. I think I have enough soup to do two batches though - so I'm still going to go ahead with the frozen wrappers.

Ah Leung - we're going to have to accept the fact that these aren't going to be pretty. They may not resemble soup dumplings at all. Just as long as they're dumplings, and have soup in them, I'll be happy. The next batch can be used to make 'good' ones (I have high hopes).

[snowangel]

Ah Leung, this might be a good opportunity for you to tell us about the different kinds of wrappers. I am finding all sorts of recipes for wrappers, and heaven knows, my local Asian market has about six kinds of them (at least). There are ones that are thinner, ones that are thicker, etc., etc.

Which wrappers do you use for what? I'm pretty much set on making my own, because although I have good luck pleating potstickers with premade (and purchased in the frozen area), when I make sui mai, I have no luck, and I think it would be easier to get the nice tight top not (or waist, in the case of sui mai) is the dough was fresh made and more pliable.

[hzrt8w]

Ah Leung, this might be a good opportunity for you to tell us about the different kinds of wrappers.  I am finding all sorts of recipes for wrappers, and heaven knows, my local Asian market has about six kinds of them (at least).  There are ones that are thinner, ones that are thicker, etc., etc.

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Susan: I sympathize. It is easy to get confused in choosing wrappers.

They come in:

1. Different shapes: square or round/oval

2. Different colors: white or yellow

3. Different thickness: very thick to very thin

Different wrappers are made (designed) to be used for different dumplings.

The yellow color is from adding eggs when making the dough. It seems that only Cantonese like the yellow wrappers. Other regions in China typically use the white ones (no egg).

Cantonese wonton: we use yellow, square, thin ones. Some use white, square, thin ones.

Potstickers: use round/oval, white ones. Could be thick or thin. I personally like thin ones

Shanghainese (or northern Chinese) wontons: use round/ovel, white ones. Thin is better.

Cantonese dim sum (e.g. siu mai): use yellow, square, thin ones. But they are different from wonton wrappers.

Don't be confused with the egg roll wrappers, which are typically big in size (4 to 6 sqare inches) instead of 3 square inches.

Back to the question of which kind of wrapper for Xian Long Bao. Well the best is to roll your own dough. If you must use a packaged wrapper, choose the white, round/oval, thick ones. Those are closest to the dough that you would make or need.

I wasn't thinking in the line of prettiness. I worry that the packaged wrapper may (1) be hard to close out at the top (you do need to have a tiny little hole at the top to let the steam come out, (2) may break on the side during steaming.

Well... good luck ladies and gents! I can't wait to see some pictures of your practice. I am just a theoretical cook, you know...

Edited October 24, 2006 by hzrt8w (log)

[Pam R]

Not that I ever doubted you Ah Leung, really, but the wrappers sucked. The filling was good though.

I realized my problem last night was that I shouldn't be planning these experiments for weeknights. So I put the rest of my chicken jello in the fridge and will try again on the weekend. (When I got home at 6:45 last night I was too hungry, tired and cranky to really give it my all.)

ETA: I should point out that the dumplings closed, held together and kept everything in. They were just a little small, didn't hold enough filling and looked nothing like they should. They were the 'hong kong' wrappers - yellow with egg. The cooked dumplings seemed too pasta-like and not dumpling-like.

Edited October 24, 2006 by Pam R (log)

[hzrt8w]

Not that I ever doubted you Ah Leung, really, but the wrappers sucked.    The filling was good though. 

[...]

ETA: I should point out that the dumplings closed, held together and kept everything in.  They were just a little small, didn't hold enough filling and looked nothing like they should.  They were the 'hong kong' wrappers - yellow with egg.  The cooked dumplings seemed too pasta-like and not dumpling-like.

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Sounds like the best is to roll your own wrapper dough.

Edited October 24, 2006 by hzrt8w (log)

[snowangel]

Brrr! It's way cold outside here, so it was naturally time to get some stuff going on the stove. I went through the freezer, and had some odd bits of pork, fatty and boney, and a package of belly skin, so on the deck, chilling (freezing rapidly?) I have sometime that when chilled resembles Jello Jigglers.

So, I'm winging it here, other than using a Barbara Tropp recipe for skins. Better check the topics that I noted above once again!

I'm thinking Friday for this project. The kids are going to think this is a real novelty. Peter is already telling his friends that his mom is going to make "sorta a ravioli thing with soup in it!"