Methylcellulose in pastry: Recipes & Tips

[chefAZ]

I know Sam Mason & egullet's very own Xdrixn use Methylcellulose & Xantham to whip beers, but does anyone know if you have to hydrate the MC first and does acidity affect the stability of the foam?

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Yes, you always have to hydrate methocel. As far as acidity, it depends on the acidity level of the base you are using. Normally Methocel is ok to use over a wide range of acidity.

[mkayahara]

On a whim, I ordered some methylcellulose from L'Epicerie, but upon further reading (in this and other threads on eGullet, as well as the Ideas in Food blog), I see that there are a number of different kinds, with different viscosities and gelling temperatures. Does anyone know what kind the product from L'Epicerie is? The only mention on the bag is "E461", which seems to be the generic European E number for methylcellulose. Any tips or recipes for using this particular brand of methylcellulose would be appreciated. Thanks.

[gfjane]

I posted about this in this Cooking thread about Methocel, simply because I found it first. I've moved the post here and edited the other post to reflect that.

I often have more creative ideas than I have practical knowledge. I keep a gluten-free house, as my SO has celiac disease. While cakes are pretty easy GF, I am always looking to find new ways to dupicate the structure and texture of wheat gluten in breads.

I bought the Methocel from Ener-G - a company that specializes in "free" products, as is dairy free, gluten free, egg free, etc. Unfortunately, they didn't give me ANY information on using it, nor do I know which forumlation it is, though am guessing A, as this is the better one for breads iirc. I got some sheets from Dow, but they are geared toward a commercial kitchen. None of them helped me much to decide what to do.

There is a dearth of info on the Web about using it in baking bread, especially when using it with other gums. I thought I'd be able to use part Methocel and part xanthan or guar or even some pectin.

I have no commercial baking experience, and no food science background...I do have a scale, but it just goes to 1 gram - this makes it useless for making 1 loaf of bread, lol, in terms of the 1-3% items like yeast, Methocel, gums, etc.

So, anyone have any advice for someone who appears to have my guts than brains, lol? At least I'm willing to experiment endlessly to figure things out...just wish I didn't feel like the person at the pin the tail party who was blindfolded and twirled five times. TIA and looking forward to participating in the forum.

Edited October 21, 2007 by gfjane (log)

[FerranHomaroHestonWylieGrant]

Whats SGA150 and SG A16 in the DOW range?

[afoodie]

Hi,

some recipes for methylcellulose and for other gelling agents can be found and downloaded at http://www.khymos.org/recipe-collection.php.

[raagamuffin]

A big Hallo to my community!

I am perplexed by this garnish,on the dome,the transparent thing.

For sure,it s not isomalt and I did see the recipe somewhere.

Please help me identify this and post a recipe to make this as well.

All help highly appreciated.

[Sethro]

Its a "handkerchief". Think its like 50/50 white fondant and glucose, cooked to about 310, poured and pulled.

[chefpeon]

What do you think the curvy spaghetti type garnish is on the dessert right next to it?

[alanamoana]

What do you think the curvy spaghetti type garnish is on the dessert right next to it?

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looks like standard tuile batter (hippenmasse...sp?) with cocoa powder dusted on top. spread the batter on silpat and comb, shape while hot.

[chefpeon]

looks like standard tuile batter (hippenmasse...sp?) with cocoa powder dusted on top. spread the batter on silpat and comb, shape while hot.

Oh! I never would have guessed that! But I can do it.....I love working with tuile batter.

The handkerchief on the other hand......I'd have to practice......

[raagamuffin]

Its a "handkerchief". Think its like 50/50 white fondant and glucose, cooked to about 310, poured and pulled.

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Thanks ,Sethro!

Would try and get this right!

I was thinking on some biscuit with pectin component in it.

Would you know of any such thing!

[Sethro]

Of what, a pectin bisquit? Sure, its not going to be clear or pull-able like a handkerchief, but here's a pretty basic recipe:

400 g glucose

400 ml milk

200 g butter

400 g sugar

15 g pectin

Cook the first three together till a boil, then whisk in the sugar pectin mixture and bring back to a boil, whisking constantly.

Drop by small scoops or spread thin on silpat and bake at 375-400 until golden.

[Tri2Cook]

Hey Sethro, I think this relates enough to the original question to be ok. If not, the mods can zap it for me.

I did that basic process you described for the handkerchief when I was trying to recreate (without recipes) the Fat Duck version of chocolate delice for the pulled chocolate caramel shard they use. I caramelized sugar, added fondant and glucose, cooked it and tossed in a little unsweetened chocolate. I was just going on instinct and a general description of what they do so that may be way off. I used (fortunately I keep notes so I know for sure) 50g sugar which I caramelized then added 100g fondant and 50g glucose. I cooked it to 310 and added 25g chocolate at the end. It worked for test purposes but it was very fragile and hardened very quickly which meant some seriously fast pulling. Never mind burnt fingers, get it done now.

The picture below shows the end result. The chocolate sorbet was too soft and the cumin caramel was slightly too firm at that point in the experiment. The soft sorbet and too-firm caramel were easy to correct but getting that shard to a formula that allows a little more room to get the work done has been troublesome for me. What this long winded rambling is leading up to is the question: could you suggest a good way to work the caramelized sugar and chocolate into it or was the problem just not getting the 50/50 ratio right with base ingredients?

[Sethro]

You don't have to pull it right away. You can pour it, cool it, break it into small chunks and reheat it. I've never tried it with caramel, but I guess that would make it harder in general...

It looks nice anyhow though.

[schneich]

iam pretty sure that its a "papel" of some kind, it looks very molecular to me, i thinks its made with methylcellulose, click here and watch the "papel hibiscus" video, i made the stuff for a shooting last week and you can fold it to any shape you want, once you put it in your mouth it melts into nothing...

cheers

t.

Edited April 14, 2008 by schneich (log)

[chefpeon]

Neato Schneich!

Darn me and my lack of ability to speak other languages!

Let me see if I got the jist of this video:

1. Start with some dried hibiscus, some gelatin(?) and glycerin. (How much of each? 50/50? Is that "metil" stuff granulated gelatin or methylcellulose? Could I substitute gelatin for methylcellulose? Are both dissolved in a certain amount of water first?)

2. Bring to a boil and add dried hibiscus. Boil for 5 minutes. Then cover pot with plastic wrap. (Why? and for how long?)

3. Strain out dried hibiscus. Scale out some powdered sugar (?). 9 grams?

4. Incorporate powdered sugar with a stick blender. Refrigerate liquid at 4 celsius (39.2 F) for 12 hours.

5. Lightly coat a smooth surface (a glass sheet or marble) with some oil. Take small amount of gelatinized mixture on an offset spatula and spread REALLY thinly in strips on the glass or marble.

Let dry 24 hours.

6. Start peeling up the strips with a metal spatula, then lift the rest of the strip up with your fingers. The strip can be wrinkled or shaped as you like. Use as a garnish.

If you'd be able to fill in those blanks, I could probably do this! I just love it.

Edited April 14, 2008 by chefpeon (log)

[Tri2Cook]

I'm not Schneich and I lack the ability to speak other languages as well but...

Metil is methylcellulose. Gelatin doesn't work as a sub for methylcellulose in the things I normally use it for but I'm not familiar with this (until now, thanks Schneich!).

The reason for the plastic wrap while infusing (from other sources I've read) is that, if you put the wrap on while the liquid is still hot, it creates a natural vacuum in the container. As I'm sure you know, the plastic wrap will first balloon out, then it will be sucked back down into the container until in is concave and very tight. I have absolutely no idea beyond the word of those who recommend it that this vacuum actually helps with infusions though. I trust the sources I read about it from so I do it.

The rest will have to wait for someone else.

[chefpeon]

Thanks Tri!

I have never heard of the plastic wrap/infusing trick....I will have to try it. And if I have the time and patience, I'd like to do a side-by-side to see if that works as opposed to NOT using plastic wrap!

I suppose you leave the wrap on til the stuff gets sucked down and the liquid cools to room temp?

[schneich]

yeah, you actually need the methylcellulose. i guess you can get it through willpowder. you have to basically make a strongly flavoured "tea" and then add the metil while still hot. the metil i better soluble in a hot medium. next you emulsify with a stickblender (without creating too much foam, metil is alsi a strong foaming agent!) the metil needs to go to the fridge at about 4c for min. 12 better 24h. you will have a thick paste in the bottom of the bowl, the liquid part is tossed. now you smear a foil (normally used for chocolate work) with glycerin. now you apply a very thin film of the thick paste with a spatula, let dry at room temp, and voila! you got the paper :-)

cheers

t.

[Sethro]

I would assume the purpose for the plastic wrap is to keep the loss of product weight from evaporation...although if the liquid results are tossed that seems unnecessary...

[adey73]

tricook that is a very, very impressive version of the Duck delice, did you see it being done on his TV series Kitchen Chemistry a few years back?

[Tri2Cook]

Thanks for the kind words. I did see that episode of kitchen science. He gave a good walkthrough of it being constructed but didn't give actual recipes. If it's in his book when it comes out later this year I'll find out how close I got.

[RocketChef]

Thanks for the kind words. I did see that episode of kitchen science. He gave a good walkthrough of it being constructed but didn't give actual recipes. If it's in his book when it comes out later this year I'll find out how close I got.

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Not sure where I got this from but it was online somewhere.

Considering you created yours from the TV version it looks good..

Chocolate Delice with Cumin Caramel Sauce

(Serves 10)

h. Rlumental

For the chocolates sorbet:

16 ounces mineral water

1 ounces trimoline

5 ounces Valhrona Manjari cholocate, chopped

For the chocolate fondant:

10 1/2 ounces Valrohna chocolate, chopped

4 1/4 ounces Plugra butter

10 ounces egg whites

2 1/4 ounces water

For the base:

5 ounces hazelnuts, roasted and ground

3/4 ounce milk chocolate, melted

7 ounces pop rocks

1/2 ounce unsalted butter, softened

1/4 teaspoon ground ginger

1/4 teaspoon ground nutmeg

1/4 teaspoon ground cloves

1/4 teaspoon ground cinnamon

For the chocolate nappage:

1 3/4 ounces Valhrona Manjari chocolate

3 ounces water

1 ounce granulated sugar

1 1/2 ounces heavy cream

7 ounces dark chocolate

5 1/2 ounces whole mole

For the cinnamon and cumin caramel souce:

5 1/4 ounces heavy cream

2 1/4 cinnamon sticks, ground in a spice grinder

1/3 cup cumin seeds

8 ounces granulated sugar

1 ounce water

2 ounces unsalted butter

For the black pepper tuiles:

1/2 teaspoon whole black pepper

1/2 teaspoon white peppercorns

1/2 teaspoon allspice

2 1/2 ounces unsalted butter

5 1/4 ounces granulated sugar

2 1/2 ounces all-purpose flour

4 ounces coconut milk

For the chocolate caramel:

2 ounces granulated sugar

2 ounces glucose

1/2 tablespoon water

2 ounces unsweetened chocolate, finely chopped

For the chocolate sorbet: Mix mineral water, cocoa, trimoline, and chocolate. Bring to a boil and strain through sieve. Place over, an ice bath to chill. Freeze in an ice cream machine according to the manufacturer's instructions.

For the chocolate fondant: Combine the chocolate and butter and melt over low heat. Place the egg whites in a bowl. Pour the chocolate mixture over the egg whites and whisk until combined. Add the water; whisk to combine and strain through a sieve. Set aside, keeping warm.

For the base: In a bowl, combine all of the ingredients.

For the chocolate nappage: Combine the chocolate, water, sugar, and heavy cream. Simmer until the mixture coats the back of a spoon. In a separate saucepan, combine the remaining chocolate and the milk. Bring to a simmer and cook until the chocolate has melted. In a medium bowl, combine both chocolate mixtures and whisk until smooth. Set aside, keeping warm.

For the cinnamon and cumin caramel sauce: Heat the heavy cream, cinnamon, and cumin seeds. Remove from the heat and infuse. In a separate saucepan, add the sugar and water and bring to a caramel stage. Add the butter and whisk until well combined. Slowly add the cream mixture; remove from the heat and strain through a sieve. Set aside, keeping warm.

For the black pepper tuiles: Oven to 350 degrees. In a spice grinder, combine the whole black pepper, white peppercorns, and allspice. Grind to a fine powder and sift. In the bowl of an electric mixer fitted with the paddle attachment, beat the butter and sugar until light and lemon colored, about three minutes. Add the flour; coconut milk, and spice mixture in several stages, scraping down the sides of the bowl between each addition. Spread in a thin layer of the batter to form ten 4-inch circles on a silpat-lined sheet pan. Bake until golden brown, about 16 to 18 minutes.

For the chocolate caramel: In a saucepan, combine the sugar; glucose, and water. Bring to 320 degrees. Remove from the heat and allow the mixture to cool to 300 degrees. Add the chocolate and mix to combine. Pour the mixture onto a silpat-lined sheet pan and set aside to cool. Cover with plastic wrap and set aside for two hours. Preheat the oven to 350 degrees. Unwrap the sheet pan and place in the oven for about five minutes. Remove from the heat and transfer to a work surface. Working directly from the hot sheet pan, carefully and quickly pull the edges of the sugar into thin, wide strips. Cut off the thick ends and set aside to harden.

To assemble the delice: Place ten 9 x 3-inch strips of acetate on a parchment-lined sheet pan. Spread the chocolate onto the acetate strips and set aside until set, about twenty minutes. Place ten 3-inch ring molds on a parchment-lined sheet pan. Fill each mold with one and one-half tablespoons of the base mixture. Fill the rest of the molds to the top with the fondant. Freeze until set, about four hours. Place a prepared chocolate acetate strip around each parfait to transfer to the sides of the parfait and remove the acetate.

To serve: Place a small line of the cinnamon and cumin caramel sauce across the center of a plate. Set a delice in the center of the plate with a black pepper tuile next to it. Top the tuile with a quenelle of chocolate sorbet and a piece of the chocolate caramel. Spoon a portion of the cinnamon and cumin caramel sauce next to the delice.

[Tri2Cook]

Thanks! That is quite a bit different than the one he did on the show but sounds more likely to be something he'd have in the restaurant. I grabbed the recipe in case it disappears. I definitely appreciate it.

[avid]

yeah, you actually need the methylcellulose. i guess you can get it through willpowder. you have to basically make a strongly flavoured "tea" and then add the metil while still hot. the metil i better soluble in a hot medium. next you emulsify with a stickblender (without creating too much foam, metil is alsi a strong foaming agent!) the metil needs to go to the fridge at about 4c for min. 12 better 24h. you will have a thick paste in the bottom of the bowl, the liquid part is tossed. now you smear a foil (normally used for chocolate work) with glycerin. now you apply a very thin film of the thick paste with a spatula, let dry at room temp, and voila! you got the paper :-)

cheers

t.

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does anyone know the ratio of mcm:liquid base for this technique?