Classic Cocktails Too Bitter?

[Sneakeater]

In an exchange on the New York board with M.X.Hassett, I complained that several of the cocktails at the Manhattan restaurant 5 Ninth struck me as being too bitter.

Thinking about it, I realize that all these cocktails were "classic" cocktails based on old recipes.

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but my incomplete and possibly misinformed knowledge of cocktail history leads me to wonder whether, a hundred or so years ago, people simply liked cocktails to be more bitter than we like them now. If I understand correctly (here's the "little knowledge" part -- unfortunately very little), bitters played a big part in the early days of cocktails, and were a much more common -- and desired -- ingredient then than now.

So my first question is, could this thesis be correct?

My second question is, if it is, why does this not bother me when I order "classic" cocktails at other New York watering holes, like Pegu Club or the Flatiron Lounge? Do they adjust old recipes to accomodate the contemporary palate?

Or am I just making this up out of whole cloth?

Edited March 29, 2006 by Sneakeater (log)

[cdh]

These drinks had lime juice in them? If so it may be differences in the kinds of limes that are available. Lime juice can sometimes be quite bitter.

[Sneakeater]

At least one did. Probably two.

Thanks. That's really interesting.

[cdh]

This is something I've wondered about before... what we get as lemons and limes are the product of lots of modern botanical science aimed at getting pretty transportable fruits... I doubt what the authors of the classics had to use much resembled what we get today.

I wonder if there are any records that could shed some light on the flavor profile of old-timey lemons and limes. Were they as acidic... was there more or less essential oil in the zest, etc.

Anybody have access to a food chemistry archive with analysis of pH of juices, or efficiency of oil pressings? That would be a good place to start.

[Blanche Davidian]

I think "classic" cockatails have a great deal less sweetness than what the average American is used to in their beverage. I blame the soda-fication of our culture for the intolerance to bitterness on the palate.

I introduced a friend to gimlets made with Rose's Lime and she was disappointed and repulsed when she ordered the drink from a classy bar that made it with fresh lime juice. (I thought it was different, but fine.) She couldn't stand the drink without that jolt of sweetness to balance the sour and the bitter.

[Sneakeater]

Just to try to regain some small bit of credibility, this was especially striking because I usually drink bitter drinks: Manhattans, Saranacs, amaros after dinner. But I thought the drinks in question were off the charts.

[eje]

Just to try to regain some small bit of credibility, this was especially striking because I usually drink bitter drinks:  Manhattans, Saranacs, amaros after dinner.  But I thought the drinks in question were off the charts.

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Did you see the bartender making them?

Sounds like he or she might be using bitters a little too enthusiastically.

A little is good, the right amount is great; but, too much can be worse than none, even for bitters loving folks.

Idle question: Do they make their own bitters?

[mbanu]

With citrus based drinks, the culprit is sometimes an electric juicer. With electrics, it's easy to overjuice the fruit and extract the bitter juice from the pith area of the fruit.

[Sneakeater]

Did you see the bartender making them?

Sounds like he or she might be using bitters a little too enthusiastically.

A little is good, the right amount is great; but, too much can be worse than none, even for bitters loving folks.

Idle question:  Do they make their own bitters?

←

No and no.

As a factual point, this occurred over three different visits on three different days of the week. I doubt it was even the same bartender.

Edited March 29, 2006 by Sneakeater (log)

[Dave the Cook]

Can we get clarification of "classic cocktails based on old recipes"? How old is old? Nineteenth-century-Jerry-Thomas-old, or mid-20th?

[eje]

They look pretty Wondrichful to me!

5 Ninth Cocktail Menu

[Sneakeater]

The cocktail menu on their website is WAY abbreviated compared to the multi-page tome you get at the restaurant. None of the cocktails I'm talking about is on the website menu.

I get the feeling these are turn-of-the-century old rather than mid-20th.

[Dave the Cook]

They look pretty Wondrichful to me!

5 Ninth Cocktail Menu

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They certainly do. I've made most of those in the first two columns -- if I recall correctly, almost all of them are in Killer Cocktails -- and I wouldn't classify any of them as bitter. (In fact, I have a friend who occasionally complains of Wondrich's latent sweet tooth.) Personally, I find them all to be pretty well balanced -- enough so that even a heavy hand on the juicer shouldn't throw them too far out of whack. So if they're using Wondrich's recipes (and based on the publicity, I assume they are), I'm puzzled.

The cocktail menu on their website is WAY abbreviated compared to the multi-page tome you get at the restaurant.  None of the cocktails I'm talking about is on the website menu.

I get the feeling these are turn-of-the-century old rather than mid-20th.

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Then I'll advance my woefully under-researched theory that it's not the recipes or the bartenders, it's the ingredients -- not just the citrus, but the base liquor itself. (Gin is just one example of a product that's become drier over time.) If you make a cocktail today from an old recipe, you're not really making the same cocktail. An analogy: if you throw a pork loin in the oven and roast it the way your Mom did 35 years ago, you'll wonder why you can't do it the way she did; you might wonder why you ever liked roast pork loin in the first place. You have to adjust for changes in the ingredients -- or adjust your palate. Edited March 29, 2006 by Dave the Cook (log)

[Splificator]

They look pretty Wondrichful to me!

5 Ninth Cocktail Menu

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I did indeed do the menu you see on the website and even did followup for a while--training new bartenders on the list, replacing drinks, etc. But I'm overdue for a tune-up visit. If they've got a multi-page tome now, that makes me scratch my head.

If the Pompadour is indeed the drink you had, that tells me that chd correctly identified the culprit, since the Pompadour has no bitters in it; it's probably somebody forgot to discard yesterday's lime juice (when its old, it gets bitter). Usually, they're on top of that sort of thing.

On the other hand, if you had an Improved Gin Cocktail and THAT was too bitter, then eje's on the money: overenthusiastic bittering.

In general, the drinks are very old-school, with provenances ranging from the 1860s to the 1920s (to the 2000s, for the ones I invented, although those are definitely modled on old-school drinks). Less sweet and much stronger than the typical fare.

I'll be in there in a couple of days and investigate farther.

[Sneakeater]

Thanks to all.

I'm pretty certain one was a Pompadour. The Improved Gin Cocktail sounds like something I'd order, so maybe that was another.

I want to be clear that I'm not "accusing" the barstaff at 5 Ninth of anything. I'm more trying to explore my own reactions and the reasons for them. Mr. Wondrich might be correct that it's just that the old recipes are less sweet and stronger than what I'm used to.

But that brings me back to one of my initial questions: why don't I feel that way about the old-school cocktails I've had elsewhere (add AOC Bedford to the list)? Do they change the recipes more?

Edited March 29, 2006 by Sneakeater (log)

[Sneakeater]

Then I'll advance my woefully under-researched theory that it's not the recipes or the bartenders, it's the ingredients -- not just the citrus, but the base liquor itself. (Gin is just one example of a product that's become drier over time.) If you make a cocktail today from an old recipe, you're not really making the same cocktail. An analogy: if you throw a pork loin in the oven and roast it the way your Mom did 35 years ago, you'll wonder why you can't do it the way she did; you might wonder why you ever liked roast pork loin in the first place. You have to adjust for changes in the ingredients -- or adjust your palate.

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This is really interesting.

Thanks again.

[eje]

I did indeed do the menu you see on the website...

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Thought the cocktails looked awfully familiar.

Wish you (and Katie) would consult at more restaurants. On my recent trip to Boston and Providence, despite the presence of many fine bottles behind the bar, most featured almost nothing but very sweet sounding vodka cocktails on their menus.

[Splificator]

I want to be clear that I'm not "accusing" the barstaff at 5 Ninth of anything.  I'm more trying to explore my own reactions and the reasons for them.  Mr. Wondrich might be correct that it's just that the old recipes are less sweet and stronger than what I'm used to.

But that brings me back to one of my initial questions:  why don't I feel that way about the old-school cocktails I've had elsewhere (add AOC Bedford to the list)?  Do they change the recipes more?

I don't know how the other places you mention get their classics ready for service; I can just speak for myself. Most old recipes I write up or put on cocktail lists are slightly adapted: first I try them straight out of the box and then I tweak proportions, brands and sweetness until I get them tasting right--for me, that is. In general, I don't have much of a sweet tooth for drinks (at least, I didn't think so until I read above about Dave S's friend; ouch). I'm not a fanatic about it, though, like David Embury, whose drinks generally seem undersweetened to me. I like what I call a minimal necessary sweetness--just enough to blunt the edge of the citrus, not so much that the drink gets that candied texture that comes before syrupy and oversweet.

[Sneakeater]

Without wanting to sound too gloppy about this, it's really sort of an honor -- as well as something of tremendous value -- to be able to discuss this stuff with you.

Thanks.

(Now, please forget I said that.)

[Sneakeater]

Just to try to regain some small bit of credibility, this was especially striking because I usually drink bitter drinks:  Manhattans, Saranacs, amaros after dinner.  But I thought the drinks in question were off the charts.

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Omigod, I said "Saranacs" instead of Sazeracs. I don't DESERVE any credibility. I shouldn't show my virtual face in this forum again!

[Splificator]

Omigod, I said "Saranacs" instead of Sazeracs.

Hey, we knew what you meant--and thanks for the kind words; they mean a lot!

[Dave the Cook]

Omigod, I said "Saranacs" instead of Sazeracs.  I don't DESERVE any credibility.  I shouldn't show my virtual face in this forum again!

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Don't feel bad. I read "Sazerac." But you could redeem yourself by inventing a Saranac.

I've been thinking about this bitter thing -- not so much the cocktails you had at 5 Ninth, but the general idea of it. And since I've made Dave feel bad, I'll nominate his version of the classic daiquiri as a case study. He calls for:

2 ounces white Cuban-style run

1/2 ounce lime juice

1/2 t sugar

He adds a note: "if this is absolutely, positively too dry for you, add more (sugar) -- but cautiously."

I was sure this was going to be almost undrinkable and that I would have to disappoint the author. But in cooking, I have the rule that I always follow a recipe verbatim the first time I make it. So, with lips puckering in apprehension, I shook it up and poured it out. It was a revelation. The bitterness of the lime brings out the roundness of the rum, and there's just enough sugar to keep the sourness from taking over the drink, but not enough to mask the rum. You can taste everything, but nothing dominates.

Compare this with Gary Regan's version:

2 ounces rum

1 ounce lime juice

1/2 ounce simple syrup

To me (please, Gary, don't tell me I'm now hurting your feelings!), this is not nearly as satisfying. It's sweeter (three times as much sugar: 1/2 T vs. 1/2 t) and more sour (twice as much lime juice in proportion to the base spirit), and the undertone of bitterness that gives Wondrich's version elegance isn't there. It's a good cocktail, but it doesn't have the balance that Wondrich's does.

[Sneakeater]

Don't feel bad. I read "Sazerac." But you could redeem yourself by inventing a Saranac.

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From my last experience hiking around there, it would have to consist mainly of mud.

Edited April 1, 2006 by Sneakeater (log)

[crabbjay]

With citrus based drinks, the culprit is sometimes an electric juicer. With electrics, it's easy to overjuice the fruit and extract the bitter juice from the pith area of the fruit.

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I totally agree. I was quite dissapointed when we purchased a rather expensive electric juicer for a bar I used to work at. Quite bitter lime and lemon juices, but in particular the lime juice. Up until that point, we had used the little hand-held juciers, squeezing juice on the spot per cocktail. The juice extracted from these little hand-helds was great, but it was often hard to extract just the right amount. Sometimes, based on the size of the fruit, half a lemon would yield almost an ounce of juice, when all that was needed for that particular cocktail in the making was 1/2 an ounce. In addition, when the bar got busy, it became a logistical problem using the hand-helds. The solution was to get an electric juicer, and squeeze lemon, lime, orange, and grapefruit before each shift, store them in glass bottles with a speedpourer, and then keep them in the frig right next to the well/workstation. This method sped things up considerably, and it was quick and accurate to pour juices out of a bottle with a speedpourer on it. You could measure 1/4 oz, 1/2, oz, 3/4 oz, etc, quite easily, accurately, and rather quickly. Measurements were more consistent and the ease-of-use issue proved useful on those busy nights.

But, after taste-testing the lemon and lime juices off an on over the course of a couple of months, and comparing the taste with juices extracted from our hand-helds, it became quite apparent that the juice extracted from our electric juicer produced a more "bitter" juice...it just tasted "off". Not horrible, just off, and not as crisp as the juice from the hand-helds.

I'd be curious to know of all your experiences with juices as well. I've asked before, but never received a response in regards to some of the better cocktail establishements around, and how they extract their juices for use in cocktails (like Pegu Club, Dylan Prime, etc, etc).

-J.C.-

[Snowy is dead]

I squeeze juice beforehand with the handhelds, put them into little squeeze bottles in the ice. Maybe about 10 onces a shift. comes out better than electric.

Edit: I work in a very small restaurant; 31 seats including the bar...

Edited April 2, 2006 by Snowy is dead (log)