High-Gluten Flour, and the Role of Gluten in Bread Structure

[doronin]

I feel somewhat confused on the importance of gluten for artisan bread (I'm interested of that "large-holes" kind of bread).

Classic approach is to have a flour with 11-13% of gluten, and knead the dough thoroughly until full gluten development.

Another approach (see Baguette demo, etc.) is to use actually low gluten flour (9%), mix (as opposite to knead) the dough, and do 1-2 stretch-n-turns.

Both methods are pretty much mutually exclusive, though different people manage to produce good bread with both of them.

So, where's the truth lays - do we need enough well developed gluten to have that chewy irregular structure artisan bread?

How on Earth a great bread can possibly be produced by either method?

Edited March 27, 2006 by doronin (log)

[McDuff]

There's a line by jackal10 somewhere in a thread about the large holes thing, saying that it takes either long fermentation to fully hydrate the flour, or full gluten development.

I've been baking the Pain Rustique from Jeffrey Hamelman's book, which is a variation on a theme by Prof Raymond Calvel, his rustic bread from The Taste of Bread, and I've nailed it every time, and sell every loaf I make. And it has plenty of big holes.

It's basically a 12-16 hour poolish, then a 2 minute mix with a 25 minute autolyse, a 2 minute mix after the salt and yeast go in, two folds, a brief rest, dividing, a brief proof, and get this, 3 1/2 hours after you start, except for the poolish, you got bread coming out of the oven.

I don't think full development is the way to go. Long slow preferments, wet doughs, turning the dough, all this seems to work better.

[alanamoana]

to add to what mcduff has already said: full development of gluten in the mixer, according to jeffrey hamelman, oxidizes the dough and reduces flavor. the "folding" method during bulk fermentation that he recommends should be enough to further develop the gluten without destroying flavor. this should work with any dough including large hole, ciabatta type doughs.

[qrn]

< It's basically a 12-16 hour poolish, then a 2 minute mix with a 25 minute <autolyse, a 2 minute mix after the salt and yeast go in

Are you adding yeast at the final mix in addition to the yeast in the poosish???

The poolish I use seems to have more than enough to blow the loaves up if I get em to close..Just curious, and still learning..

Bud

[McDuff]

< It's basically a 12-16 hour poolish, then a 2 minute mix with a 25 minute <autolyse, a 2 minute mix after the salt and yeast go in

Are you adding yeast at the final mix in addition to the yeast in the poosish???

  The poolish I use seems to have more than enough to blow the loaves up if I get em to close..Just curious, and still learning..

Bud

←

.2% yeast goes into the poolish and 1.3% into the final dough for a total of 1.5%. Hamelman has a curious, to me anyway, form of expressing dough formulas. He gives percentages for the starter, the overall formula, but not for the dough portion of the formula. So I'm guessing that when the pain rustique calls for .2% in the poolish, you have to subtract that from the 1.5% total in the overall formula.

I've been making 10.01 lbs of poolish and it takes .053 oz of yeast or a scant 1/2 tsp. The dough takes .7 oz. I don't think this is a huge amount of yeast for 20.02 lbs of dough. The poolish alone would probably raise the dough, but the advantage to me is that I can have hot bread on the sales floor at 9:30 am without having to go to work at 2 am. I've got a picture of the stuff at work that I'll post thursday afternoon.

[doronin]

Guys, the question I was trying to ask was more about flour gluten content, and then the required kneading depending on that gluten content.

Some say: we need "bread" flour to get a decent bread. Jackal's method uses 9% protein flour, and get very nice baguettes.

My concern is how these two fact can live together? It seem to mean that protein content is not necessarily important for bread making? It sound ridiculous even to myself, but how otherwise can I explain the above?

Edited March 29, 2006 by doronin (log)

[danlepard]

If I can re-phrase your question, and make it two:

Do you need to use flour with a very high gluten content to have that chewy irregular structure in some artisan bread?

No - certainly there are bakers working traditionally in France and Italy (bread more often seen in markets that in retail bakeries), using local flour with a lowish gluten content. The baguette demo here:

http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showtopic=73591

uses very fast mixing that causes a oxidation that (to cut a very, very long complicated story short) makes most of the gliadin and glutenin bond - effectively making softer flour stronger. There are other chemical interactions at work in Jack's recipe that effect gluten development too.

Do you need to extensively develop the dough in order to have that chewy irregular structure in some artisan bread?

Yes - but time and temperature are important factors too, as the structure is created by fermenting organisms and the subsequent gasses held as bubbles by the gluten. The gassing and division rate of these organisms (bacteria and yeast) will be affected by temperature, available natural sugars and time - extend this process without totally exhausting the available sugars (this leads to a very pale loaf) and that will give the best result.

So I would say that it is always best to think of dough development as a process that begins when water is added and ends on baking, and that mixing is just one part of that process and itself subject to factors that affect the dough development.

b x

Dan

[miladyinsanity]

Guys, the question I was trying to ask was more about flour gluten content, and then the required kneading depending on that gluten content.

Some say: we need "bread" flour to get a decent bread. Jackal's method uses 9% protein flour, and get very nice baguettes.

My concern is how these two fact can live together? It seem to mean that protein content is not necessarily important for bread making? It sound ridiculous even to myself, but how otherwise can I explain the above?

←

It might help to think of it in terms of how much gluten is developed against time.

So in theory, if you use a 13% rather than a 9% flour, all other things being equal, it'll take less time to develop the same amount of gluten with the 13% than with the 9%.

I'm not an expert, that's me interpreting what I've read so far on bread.

[doronin]

The baguette demo here http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showtopic=73591 uses very fast mixing that causes a oxidation that (to cut a very, very long complicated story short) makes most of the gliadin and glutenin bond - effectively making softer flour stronger. There are other chemical interactions at work in Jack's recipe that effect gluten development too.

←

The arising guess is that aforementioned 9% flour would not work that well without very fast mixing, how correct is it?

Jack also mentioned there that 9% flour made better texture and actually larger holes then 11%, because weaker gluten allowed cells to merge.

Here I see another hopefully seeming contradiction: we need strong gluten to keep gases inside the loaf, but we need weak gluten to allow cells to merge. Classics say: weak gluten usually ends up with no rise, leave alone open crumb. There must be another factor that makes all the difference in case of low gluten: good rise with merged cells, or just no rise. And I'm not talking about dry dough...

Edited March 29, 2006 by doronin (log)

[jackal10]

As Dan says, its a complex story, and dough is a complicated system.

On the one hand reactions are going on to develop the gluten into thin cross-linked structures, while at the same time other reactions and enzymes, such as protease's are weakening the structure.

Crumb texture comes from a whole series of factors, of which the amount of gluten is just one. Others include hydration, and most importantly the mechanical work and gas nuclei present after mixing.

I only have anecdotal rather than scientific evidence.

In my subjective view more gluten allows you to work with a higher hydrated dough, which usually, but not necessarily means bigger holes. However that gluten has to go somewhere, so you get either a finer grained crumb or thicker cell walls. Effectively it means the loaf might rises higher than a lower gluten loaf, but with finer cell texture.

I've found that with all other variables the same, as far as I can make them, lower gluten gives bigger holes. Crudely you might think that the weaker gluten allows cells to coalesce easier, but according to Sluimer, there is very little coalescing of the individual gas cells in normal dough, or rather if the conditions are suitable for cells to coalesce, then they all do and the bread degases and deflates, such as when dough is overproved and collapses.

I suspect that weaker gluten lets fewer gas nuclei are form when in mixing for some reason. Its rather like trying to whip up a froth with too little detergent in the water. Adding more detergent doesn't give you bigger bubbles.

Thus for coarse texture, again crudely, you want weak gluten that will not support the micro bubble gas nuclei formation, either with the gluten underdeveloped during mixing (short mix, then stretch and fold), or mixed so far that the gluten is beginning to break down again (I think it recovers and cross links during the bench time). Stretching and folding, like laminating pastry, also introduces structure and some big bubbles.

Edited March 29, 2006 by jackal10 (log)

[McDuff]

This is the white leaven loaf from The Handmade Loaf, made with King Arthur Special for bread machines, and made exactly according to Dan's formula and method. How much bigger do you want the holes? The flour is around 12% protein, and the bread takes almost 10 hours to make before you can start to eat it. So you've got both things going on..higher gluten and lots of time. It takes minimal mixing, but multiple short kneading intervals.

[jackal10]

That is a fine looking loaf McDuff. Note the thinness of he cell walls

[doronin]

If McDuff could produce that marvelous bread with relatively high gluten flour, and Jack with low gluten flour, then the holey-ness doesn't really depend on protein percentage.

Here comes the gold question: what determines the dough to rise with finer grained crumb, or with open crumb like that?

What breaks the pattern of high loaf with finer grained crumb?

[rob7]

The bagel topic got me specifically thinking about this.....if a recipe calls for high gluten flour and I have regular bread flour and a box of wheat gluten, can I add the wheat gluten into the bread flour to make high gluten flour.

If this can be done, is there a formula to determine how much gluten to add to get to a certain protein content?

If this can be done, are there any disadvantages to doing this as opposed to finding a high gluten flour.

I ask because the only way I am able to get high gluten flour is mail order. But, I can get bread flour and gluten.

Edited January 2, 2008 by rob7 (log)

[andiesenji]

I use vital wheat gluten, usually Bob's Red Mill or Arrowhead, because they are readily available, whenever I bake with whole wheat flour, with doughs containing a significant amount of grains, seeds, bran, especially flaxseed meal, etc.

Also, any doughs that contain cinnamon, which can make the dough a bit "stodgy" - not exactly heavy, but with denser portions.

Here is a good reference site to give you the amounts to use.

I also add it to the flour when I prepare "bubble" bread, monkey bread or similar pull-apart types to keep the lower layers from being too compressed.

Edited January 2, 2008 by andiesenji (log)

[Darcie B]

My limited experience with this is that adding vital wheat gluten does not work, specifically in bagel recipes. I tried it when I was out of high gluten flour, and my bagels were dense and horrible. I used 2 tablespoons of VWG to 1 cup of flour. I didn't test any other levels since the initial results were so disappointing.

[Baggy]

Adding wheat gluten can work OK, but you probably need to start with a reasonable strength flour. The main problem is mixing it completely into the flour. Once the water hits the gluten, it can form into a lump and is unlikely to mix fully (typically added at 1-2% of flour weight). Best to mix the gluten with the flour and then double sift.

andiesenji – when you’re baking with cinnamon you could try increasing the amount of yeast that you add. Cinnamon slows the rate at which yeast works, so an extra amount makes a huge difference without needing to add gluten (which damps down the flavours). As a fist guess, you might try increasing the yeast by 25%.

[Baggy]

I’ve been having some problems with my bread over the past few days. Standard recipe but the loaves collapse during baking. Having tried changing every ingredient, I eventually remembered that wheat quality is extremely poor this year, so I added 0.2% by weight of flour of ascorbic acid. Problem solved. It reminded me of your question about flour for bagels.

Although I haven’t tried it, adding ascorbic acid (Vitamin C) could be a better alternative to gluten to improve your flour for bagels. Should be easily available in the health food store (preferably without lemon flavour).

[rob7]

Thanks for the suggestion Baggy. I sucked it up and ended up ordering some high gluten flour online.

[origamicrane]

Hello all

my first post in the baking and pastry section i believe.

I had a look using search but not found exactly what i wanted.

I have due to an ordering mistake got 8kg of gluten flour/powder.

I've been looking for recipes to use up this flour.

I had a google and it seems i can just make bread with this, does anyone know if i can just substitute gluten flour for normal flour? or will i need to modify the recipe?

I believe my gluten flour is 90% gluten.

thanks in advance

Edited February 9, 2008 by origamicrane (log)

[qrn]

Hello all

my first post in the baking and pastry section i believe.

I had a look using search but not found exactly what i wanted.

I have due to an ordering mistake got 8kg of gluten flour/powder. 

I've been looking for recipes to use up this flour. 

I had a google and it seems i can just make bread with this, does anyone know if i can just substitute gluten flour for normal flour? or will i need to modify the recipe?

I believe my gluten flour is 90% gluten.

thanks in advance

←

Not sure of UK but "High gluten here is probably 15% gluten. I use it for pizza dough, and bread, Its just a bit higher % than "bread "flour.

Bud

[origamicrane]

hi

yep that was my mistake i was meant to order hight gluten (strong) flour

but i actually ordered gluten flour/powder.

Don't want to waste it so wondering if i can just substitute it for normal flour in a bread / dough recipe? either that our i can cut it with plain flour.

thank for the advice

[saucée]

You can make seitan out of it, but that wouldn't be baking. As for baking, cutting other flours with it might be a way to use it but that might take a while.

[alanamoana]

you can probably use it (small percentages at a time) in your weaker flour to make high gluten flour. don't try to use it alone to make bread...you'll end up with rubber balls.

[djyee100]

If you have what I think you do, this is gluten flour that you can add to regular bread flour to give the loaf a better rise. It's commonly added to dough for a breadmaking machine. However (according to a friend who uses it in his breadmaking machine), too much gluten flour will cause gassy indigestion, so be cautious with it.

Here's one recipe I found in a Google search. I've never used 90% gluten flour myself. http://down---to---earth.blogspot.com/2007...-beginners.html