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Old Tom Gin

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Tonight I had a notion that the BT Jerry Thomas Decanter Bitters might be a nice combo.

Pineapple plus the clove flavors of the Jerry Thomas bitters. Oh, my, yes, please. Makes me want to make another batch of pineapple infused gin/Campari/Maraschino for The Riviera.

I wonder how Old Tom would be in that. Perhaps the other flavor are too strong for the gin to come through?


Edited by EvergreenDan (log)

Kindred Cocktails | Craft + Collect + Concoct + Categorize + Community

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For the Hayman's, it would probably be too much, but the Ransom is heady stuff. It's a whole different animal.


Edited by 12BottleBar (log)

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For those in the Boston area, I found Ransom Old Tom at the liquor store in the Porter Sq plaza, Somerville. They guy said that it had just some in yesterday. They also had 3 good Mezcals, include the one that's $40-ish.


Kindred Cocktails | Craft + Collect + Concoct + Categorize + Community

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Thanks KD and Chris for the heads up on the Variations on a Theme recipe. I just made one with the last of my Hayman's, and it's a fantastic drink. I did make one adjustment, though - instead of orange bitters, I used some homemade sour cherry bitters, and they worked beautifully.

And now that I'm out of Hayman's, I have every excuse to pick up a bottle of Ransom's for comparison. You know, for science.


"Martinis should always be stirred, not shaken, so that the molecules lie sensuously one on top of the other." - W. Somerset Maugham

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Does anyone have a rough idea of what the sugar levels in these Old Tom's is (Hayman's and Ransom mostly)?

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Neither Hayman's nor Ransom are notably sweet Gins.

I think I remember Eric Seed telling me when they were researching Gin sugar content they discovered some allegedly "Dry" Gins which had higher sugar content than Hayman's.

And I think bostonapothecary did some testing on Ransom and couldn't find a detectable amount of sugar.

I think the assertion that Old-Tom was necessarily a sweetened Gin is a simplification.

The best way to look at Old-Tom is as Gin produced in England, initially to mimic the Genever Style, which, as time went by, evolved into something nearly indistinguishable from London Dry Gin.

Interestingly, in his older books Cocktail Bill Boothby asserts that there were "Cordial" Old Tom Gins, and admonishes mixers that when using "Cordial Old-Tom" they should be careful to add no more sweetener to drinks. I think one style of Old Tom was essentially a Juniper liqueur.


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Erik Ellestad

If the ocean was whiskey and I was a duck...

Bernal Heights, SF, CA

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Does anyone have a rough idea of what the sugar levels in these Old Tom's is (Hayman's and Ransom mostly)?

i tried to test the ransom for sugar and think that it might have 30 g/l or less. i can't be confident because that is near the margin of error for the testing method (narrow range hydrometer and a couple charts)

i think the sugar is in there just to aid with first impressions. the old toms supposedly have more dissolved aroma (dry extract) than london drys. the aromas are very aggressive, so if the sugar was not there, you might be more likely to not "get it".. and not believe it would be so much fun to mix.

when i mix it i do not factor in its sugar content to my recipes.


abstract expressionist beverage compounder

creator of acquired tastes

bostonapothecary.com

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As far as I know the Ransom has no added sugar at all. When I was advising Tad Seestedt on its creation, I advised him that some sugar was needed for authenticity, but he just couldn't bring himself to put it in there. That said, it does have some sugars absorbed from the barrel, so there's that.


aka David Wondrich

There are, according to recent statistics, 147 female bartenders in the United States. In the United Kingdom the barmaid is a feature of the wayside inn, and is a young woman of intelligence and rare sagacity. --The Syracuse Standard, 1895

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As far as I know the Ransom has no added sugar at all. When I was advising Tad Seestedt on its creation, I advised him that some sugar was needed for authenticity, but he just couldn't bring himself to put it in there. That said, it does have some sugars absorbed from the barrel, so there's that.

cool. i though the color might have come from a few grams of raw sugar in conjunction with a barrel. apparently not.

is it correct to say that the ransom old tom has more dissolved aroma than a typical london dry? what is your aesthetic definition of an "old tom"?

i wonder if there was an economic angle to old toms creation. were there botanicals significantly cheaper than juniper yet aesthetically similar (olfactory dryness) that they put in the gins? if these these cheaper to produce formulas came out sharper in aroma than juniper, maybe a little gustatory sweetness was needed to tame them. most botanicals that create olfactory sweetness (citrus peel) are probably expensive and therefore not in budget botanical formulas.


abstract expressionist beverage compounder

creator of acquired tastes

bostonapothecary.com

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If Hayman's and Ransom are so different, I wonder what it is that they actually do have in common. I've never had either, and I think I can get Hayman's but after reading the older posts in this thread, I'm more curious to try Ransom.

What we need is a scale or a wheel to show the relative flavor relationships of London dry gin, American/Modern gin, Old Tom Gins, Plymouth Gin, various genevers, and stand-out products such as Genevieve, Smalls Gin, Martin Miller's, Damrak Amsterdam Gin, etc.


Mike

"The mixing of whiskey, bitters, and sugar represents a turning point, as decisive for American drinking habits as the discovery of three-point perspective was for Renaissance painting." -- William Grimes

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What we need is a scale or a wheel to show the relative flavor relationships of London dry gin, American/Modern gin, Old Tom Gins, Plymouth Gin, various genevers, and stand-out products such as Genevieve, Smalls Gin, Martin Miller's, Damrak Amsterdam Gin, etc.

http://www.fineexpressions.co.uk/news/2007-Nov/single_malt_flavour_map1.html

I have something like this for each spirit category however it's not something I'd want to share at the moment as it wouldn't make sense to anyone but me, a bit rough around the edges to say the least. If I was to spend a bit of time I could knock something up to cover the gin/genever category.


Edited by evo-lution (log)

Evo-lution - Consultancy, Training and Events

Dr. Adam Elmegirab's Bitters - Bitters

The Jerry Thomas Project - Tipplings and musings

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http://www.fineexpressions.co.uk/news/2007-Nov/single_malt_flavour_map1.html

I have something like this for each spirit category however it's not something I'd want to share at the moment as it wouldn't make sense to anyone but me, a bit rough around the edges to say the least. If I was to spend a bit of time I could knock something up to cover the gin/genever category.

Thanks. Yeah, I've seen the ones for Scotch, so that was kind of what I had in mind. I think if someone created one for gin that would be very useful, at least as a guide for when you're trying to figure out where some of these gins and gin species fit into the scheme of things.


Mike

"The mixing of whiskey, bitters, and sugar represents a turning point, as decisive for American drinking habits as the discovery of three-point perspective was for Renaissance painting." -- William Grimes

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http://www.fineexpressions.co.uk/news/2007-Nov/single_malt_flavour_map1.html

I have something like this for each spirit category however it's not something I'd want to share at the moment as it wouldn't make sense to anyone but me, a bit rough around the edges to say the least. If I was to spend a bit of time I could knock something up to cover the gin/genever category.

Thanks. Yeah, I've seen the ones for Scotch, so that was kind of what I had in mind. I think if someone created one for gin that would be very useful, at least as a guide for when you're trying to figure out where some of these gins and gin species fit into the scheme of things.

i think eric asimov's recent article in his "the pour" column is relevant here.

he tries to come up with a binary analogy to describe wines at the minimum. a few words to give the gist... i can't say he really nailed it in the article, but the idea is really worth while and i've tried to use it in the past.

he is basically seeking an analogy that is as effective as "warm" & "cool" colors (a cross sensory comparison of vision to thermoception)

simple analogies lend themselves to spirits really well because compared to wine, gustation is simplified. so we are near only dealing with alcohol content and aroma instead of the additional soup of acids, sugars, tannins, etc.

if we can classify all aromas in terms of gustation (a cross sensory analogy), when you think of gin, just think of the distribution of aromas that increase the perception of sweetness and those that decrease it.

the tension between these two categories (the anti-sweet aromas could be subdivided but we are not going to) contributes to the emotional content of the gin. emotional content being the spectrum of repulsion to elation. every one interprets this emotional content their own way largely based on all the acquire tastes (dissonance) they have metabolized.

you could even use a point scale like 10 points "dry", 3 point "sweet" which might be something like tanqueray. beafeter might be like 8 to 3. bols genever 6 to 6. barely dry american gins which might be 5 to 4 (the only acquired taste in these american gins is the alcohol... boring!).

you could follow up with an extra analogy for the spectrum of the sweet aromas because malt "sweetness" is very different to citrus peel. maybe something like "light" or "heavy". malt would have a heavy, sweet aroma.


Edited by bostonapothecary (log)

abstract expressionist beverage compounder

creator of acquired tastes

bostonapothecary.com

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Hmm, my 1/2 full bottle of Hayman's OTG went a bit cloudy. It was perfectly clear when new. Any ideas why? Weather has gotten cold/heat has come on, maybe that has something to do with it?

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After Tanqueray, Anchor Distilling has announced that they were going to release an Old Tom gin. I am very curious about this, although I am perfectly happy with the Tanqueray already.

 

Isn't the Tanq Old Tom one of their "limited release" bottles? May not be around forever I suppose. Would be good to have a couple of newer options that become always available. But as long as I have Ransom to make my Martinez I don't worry much about it!

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