Got Nooks? Arches? Holes?

[Chris Amirault]

We are starting to noodle with the idea of renovating our kitchen, and while I have about four dozen questions, the primary design issue at the moment involves the following. In an ideal world, we'd like to obliterate the wall between our kitchen and dining room, so that we could open up those two busy spaces and allow me to interact with people while I cook. Unfortunately, there is a chimney and heating duct smack dab in the middle of the wall.

As a result, we believe that we will be able to open up a space that is 4 1/2 to 6 feet wide, and it would be Our contractor friend has indicated that this space is simply too small to provide anything that will feel remotely "open." We're not quite giving up, though, and I thought I'd ask you for help.

Do you have any spaces between your kitchen and dining room -- or, frankly, between any two rooms -- that are only about this wide? How do they work (or not)? What function do they provide, and what can't they provide? I've thought about lazy susans, dumb waiters, sculpted arches, and so on, but it's very hard for me to visualize anything. I'd thus especially be grateful for any photos you might be willing to share.

[Smithy]

I don't have such a space now, so can't provide any photos. I looked seriously once at buying a house that had a space, maybe 6 feet wide, maybe more like 8 feet, between the kitchen and the dining room. The divider was a counter/breakfast bar that served as a pass-through between the two rooms. Louvered bifold doors closed the space off to hide the kitchen mess. If we were to add on to our house so I could have my cherished dining room, we'd consider something like that. As I recall, cabinets were hung from the ceiling so that the space was too low to provide easy conversation between the two rooms, unless people in the dining room sat at the breakfast bar and chatted through into the kitchen.

[kiliki]

We have a pass through that's 6'5" long and 26" high. Our designer suggested a pass through rather than no wall at all because we have a very small house and we didn't want to feel like we lived in one room. If I had to do it over (and had a larger budget), I would have eliminated the whole wall and just had nice cabinetry facing both sides, but I'd do that for aesthetic reasons, not because there's anything wrong with the pass through. Anyway, it is very functional-on the bar we put food and drinks during parties or large dinners, and it's very easy to cook and interact with the people in the living/dining room. People could pull up barstools to that bar, too, if we had them (one of these days we'll get a couple). It's a world different than the old kitchen with its narrow doorway-there was no way to interact with people in the other room, so the cook (me) really got left out of the fun.

Edited January 9, 2006 by kiliki (log)

[Anna N]

I have a hard time visualizing what you are facing with that duct and chimney but I am a great believer in mirrors and wonder if strategically placed large mirrors would contribute to a feeling of openess. I am so lucky in this little house as the "Great Room" encompasses the kitchen, dining room and conversation area in one open space.

[Chris Amirault]

Thanks for the responses. kiliki, this is very interesting:

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That's 6 1/2 feet wide? Wow... it's a lot bigger than I would have expected. That's very useful. Thanks!

[BeeZee]

In a former life I was an interior designer, so I can say there are often "visual tricks" to make spaces feel more open. Mirrors are problematic in the kitchen (constant cleaning from airborne grease), but keeping all the colors really light will make it feel more open. Also, depending on your budget, if you can raise the height of the ceiling (make a coffered ceiling, with cove lighting) that's a really nice effect. If the opening is going to be really small, it can make you feel boxed in, ironically. Oh, and I like the idea of an interesting shape to the opening, like a soft arch, if it works with the overall design.

Edited January 10, 2006 by BeeZee (log)

[Chris Amirault]

If the opening is going to be really small, it can make you feel boxed in, ironically.

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This is very useful, BeeZee. I have worried about precisely your first point here: a poorly planned space can make two (not just the one) rooms feel oddly constrained. It would be as if we're trying too hard, you know? (Here's the wall that would have the hole, btw; it'd be over by the white pantry door to the left of the white shelf.)

[kiliki]

To add to Beezee's point, I should probably point out that we have 10' ceilings as well as a 6' bay window and a door with a large window on the wall (southern exposure) opposite the pass through. So, it all does feel pretty open and bright.

[memesuze]

I have a galley kitchen that originally had a door to the dining room/living room at one end. After removing the door, I had a contractor cut horizontally about 42 inches above the floor into the wall on the right side of the door. He then removed the drywall above that 42-inch line, and built me a breakfast bar into which I laid tiles. The opening as you look at it from the living room or dining room is a tad less than six feet across at the top, and 32-35 inches across from 42 inches high on down. It's really opened up the whole space from whichever direction one looks. When I get home, I'll take a picture and post it. BTW, I have standard 7-foot ceilings, the main kitchen itself is probably 8x12, and the dining room isn't big either. I also lengthened the original kitchen by creating a big pantry/refrigerator room/mud room at the other end by opening up to what was once a back porch.

I'd say go for it.

[memesuze]

having never used imageGullet, I didn't want to take the time to figure it all out. I've posted two pix of the above-mentioned kitchen in my Yahoo photo album entitled: Kitchen. These will give you a better idea of what I'm talking about. For some reason the dining room wall looking into the kitchen shows up sage-y, rather than the Provence Blue it and the other accent walls are, and the far pantry wall is a deep Hunter Red, rather than burnt orange, [Hook 'Em], but that's neither here nor there.

kitchen album

Edited January 11, 2006 by memesuze (log)

[Chris Amirault]

Thanks, memesuze. Do you really use those two stools there?

[memesuze]

yep, I often sit there for a meal, since I live alone, and when I'm standing at the stainless steel workbench I created from Metro shelving from my local AceMart restaurant supply or at the stove, folks can sit and enjoy a glass of wine and give me grief. I was fortunate to grab those two stools for $15 at a garage sale.

[BeeZee]

If the opening is going to be really small, it can make you feel boxed in, ironically.

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This is very useful, BeeZee. I have worried about precisely your first point here: a poorly planned space can make two (not just the one) rooms feel oddly constrained. It would be as if we're trying too hard, you know? (Here's the wall that would have the hole, btw; it'd be over by the white pantry door to the left of the white shelf.)

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OK, well the designer in me needs to see the whole floor plan (kitchen with the adjacent rooms) to figure out if you are better or worse off with/without the opening. I guess everyone has the vision of the "open" kitchen but sometimes the existing architecture doesn't want to cooperate

My first instinct was "no" to the opening because of the other wall jutting out and you have a doorway to the right, correct? Unless you remove that doorway and make a counter that is kind of a peninsula?