Barolo & Italian wine question

[CtznCane]

For the most part I'm a California wine lover, mostly an ex-French wine drinker, who also adores German wines. When it comes to Italian wines I really don't have much if any knowledge other than occasionally buying a bottle of Chianti Classico a couple times of year just for random drinking around the house.

This year for our Christmas dinner we went to an Italian restaurant that I enjoy and ordered a bottle of Barolo. It was a 2000 Costa Di Bussia Barolo. We enjoyed this wine enough to go seek out bottle of it at our local BevMo. At the restaurant the bottle was $52 while at BevMo it was $29 and was still the lowest priced Barolo. OUrbottle at the restaurant had was a beautiful rich garnet color. The nose danced with different nuances and floral tones of roses and violet. Body wise we found it to be very light yet still elegant and with nice smoothe finish. Needless to say we were impressed enough to go buy another bottle and start thinking about buying other Barolo's. I know Barolo is primarily nebbiola and to this point the only other nebbiola I've bought was at Viansa which was decent but nothing special. In terms of Barolo's which ones are reccomended? Which ones are good values? What should one look for in a Barolo?

[Brad Ballinger]

I'm going to point you to two threads that chronicle a trip Chris James took to Piedmont. It will give you a flavor of how the Piemontese feel about Barolo and some of the debate about what it should be.

Fun With Piedmont Producers (1)

Fun With Piedmont Producers (2)

Craig Camp had also written some Barolo columns for The Daily Gullet, but I'm not able to bring those up. I'll see if they are archived somewhere, and edit this reply to include links to those.

Some general comments:

Good Barolo can be had for under $30, but it takes a lot of effort and you have to kiss a lot of frogs. Most of the good stuff will cost you over $50. Barbaresco (also from Piedmont, also made from nebbiolo) is aged for one year less than Barolo, and can be just as good for a few dollars less. Gattinara (also from Piedmont, also made from nebbiolo) can also be quite good, costs less, and ages just as long.

The main topic that surfaces in Barolo discussions is old v. new style, or traditionalism v. modernism. Some people appreciate great wines made in either style. Others are loyal to one over the other. So to recommend a specific producer to you would probably depend on your preference of style. The best recommendation I can make is to seek out a Barolo/Barbaresco tasting that will feature traditionalist and modernist producers' wines.

[Craig Camp]

Thirty dollar Barolo is probably an oxymoron these days. The entry level has probably become $45 for good quality (not greatness) on a reliable basis. Anything below this mark probably comes from over-cropped vineyards of questionable character. There are notable exceptions like the Fontanafredda Barolo Serralunga (year in and out the most consistent bargain in Barolo) and Marchesi di Barolo, Barolo. I would not include the wine you tasted in my list of recommended value Baroli.

There are good reasons that Barolo is expensive as nebbiolo in a find Langhe vineyard is among the most expensive vines to farm in the world. Vietti reports logging about 900 work-hours per acre and all of that work is done by hand. Beyond that yields are very low, less than half of famed Napa Valley cabernet vineyards and then it takes almost five years before they can actually sell it. All if this means great Barolo is an expensive pleasure.

We always seem to forget Barbaresco when Barolo comes up and this is a mistake. With slightly less fame and a year less aging, Barbaresco is usually a better buy than Barolo and offers many of the same pleasures. The wines of the Produttori dei Barbaresco remain the finest values in classic nebbiolo produced.

Here are links to some of my other comments about Barolo:

Barolo Wars

Barolo Royalty: Marcarini

The Perfect Vintage

Edited January 3, 2006 by Craig Camp (log)

[Bill Miller]

Several years ago I purchased a Gattinara for around $30---excellent. The vendor referred to it as "poor man's Barolo". Imagine a poor man (or a lot of people I know) spending that much on any wine. I have about 10 bottles of Barolo going back to '96--every bottle is a thrill. I have a small cellar and that's all I can justify.

Edited January 3, 2006 by Bill Miller (log)

[russ parsons]

i'm a big barolo fan who has been priced out of the market. i did the same thing several years ago. picked up a bunch of '78 gattinara from travaglini at about $12 a bottle (probably $30 inflation-adjusted). the gattinara was a very, very tough wine that took years, maybe decades to come around. i opened the last bottle a couple of years ago and while i wouldn't say it was exactly barolo-like, it had softened into a very nice wine.

[jayt90]

There are three wines made from nebbiolo that should be lower priced than barolo: Barbaresco, Gattinarra, and Ghemme. There are gems made in each and they are worth looking for. But an unscrupuous merchant will try to put Barbera into the fray.

[carswell]

There are three wines made from nebbiolo that should be lower priced than barolo:  Barbaresco, Gattinarra, and Ghemme.

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Not to mention Roero, Carema and Valtellina (including the four Valtellina superiore subdenominations of Grumello, Inferno, Vagella and Sassella).

[Brad Ballinger]

Not to mention Roero, Carema and Valtellina (including the four Valtellina superiore subdenominations of Grumello, Inferno, Vagella and Sassella).

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I totally forgot about Valtellina -- which one can get for pennies on the dollar compared to Barolo. Valtellina is in Lombardy (not Piedmont). There the grape is called chiavennasca instead of nebbiolo. A producer to look for is Rainoldi. I was able to purchase a 1998 Rainoldi Prugnolo Valtellina Superiore for $18 a couple of years ago.

What you'll also find in Valtellina is Sfursat, which is made in the same style as Amarone but using chiavennasca grapes instead of corvina grapes.

[bushey]

carswell, mention away! I've a lot to learn about these Italian wines, primarliy this: what types of food go best with these wines. We've picked up a few Barolo and Barbaresco in our travels, and I'm stymied about what to make that would complement them well.

[carswell]

what types of food go best with these wines.

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Truffles, especially with mature wines, as in risotto or pasta with Parmesan and white truffle shavings. Wild mushrooms, especially porcini, either by themselves, in risotto or pasta or as a flavouring agent in stews. Game (pappardelle with hare sauce is classic). Pan-roasted quail, partridge and guinea hen. Kid stewed in red wine. Beef, venison or horse al Barolo. Veal or lamb kidneys, grilled or sautéed with mustard sauce. Parmesan and fontina cheese. Even beef or venison, roasted, pot-roasted or stewed, especially if you use northern Italian herbs, spices and aromatics. You might want to keep an eye on the A Year of Italian Cooking thread, as Kevin72 has announced he's extending it by a month in order to focus on Piedmont.

[Bill Miller]

carswell, mention away! I've a lot to learn about these Italian wines, primarliy this: what types of food go best with these wines. We've picked up a few Barolo and Barbaresco in our travels, and I'm stymied about what to make that would complement them well.

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Veal or lamb osso buco, rich beef or venison stews, steak a pouve (sp), duck.

[JohnL]

I have found that you can't go wrong with the dishes that come from the area in question.

The local folks seem to pair up food with the local wines (or is it the other way round?) with the best results!

I believe it is out of print-- but Matt Kramer's "A Passion for Piedmont" is a great book with many wonderful recipes from the Piedmont with lots of good wine info and perspective. kramer has a real love for the region and has spent a lot of time there--not to speak of his not inconsiderable perspective on wine in general.

also

The best book on Italian wine at the moment is "Vino Italiano" by Joe Bastianich and David Lynch (just out in paperback)--it covers all of Italy (not just the Piedmont) but it also covers food pairing (courtesy of his mom Lydia Bastianich) and is loaded with wonderful consumer friendly information.

By the way--I second Brad's advice to try both "New" and "0ld style" Barolo (don't forget Barbaresco--which is also Nebbiolo but usually matures earlier).

I happen to love both styles!

right now the barolos of Marcarini are reasonably priced for the quality--around fifty to sixty bucks (you might even find em for forty or so).

[Craig Camp]

I have found that you can't go wrong with the dishes that come from the area in question.

The local folks seem to pair up food with the local wines (or is it the other way round?) with the best results!

I believe it is out of print-- but Matt Kramer's "A Passion for Piedmont" is a great book with many wonderful recipes from the Piedmont with lots of good wine info and perspective. kramer has  a real love for the region and has spent a lot of time there--not to speak of his not inconsiderable perspective on wine in general.

also

The best book on Italian wine at the moment is "Vino Italiano" by Joe Bastianich and David Lynch (just out in paperback)--it covers all of Italy (not just the Piedmont) but it also covers food pairing (courtesy of his mom Lydia Bastianich) and is loaded with wonderful consumer friendly information.

By the way--I second Brad's advice to try both "New" and "0ld style" Barolo (don't forget Barbaresco--which is also Nebbiolo but usually matures earlier).

I happen to love both styles!

right now the barolos of Marcarini are reasonably priced for the quality--around fifty to sixty bucks (you might even find em for forty or so).

←

Marcarini is not "reasonably priced for the quality" - if quality alone set the price they would cost more than Sperss. Manuel Marchetti is to be admired for his commitment to keeping his prices down - especially considering the spectacular quality of his wines. Unfortunately, most never understand how profound these wines are.

[JohnL]

I have found that you can't go wrong with the dishes that come from the area in question.

The local folks seem to pair up food with the local wines (or is it the other way round?) with the best results!

I believe it is out of print-- but Matt Kramer's "A Passion for Piedmont" is a great book with many wonderful recipes from the Piedmont with lots of good wine info and perspective. kramer has  a real love for the region and has spent a lot of time there--not to speak of his not inconsiderable perspective on wine in general.

also

The best book on Italian wine at the moment is "Vino Italiano" by Joe Bastianich and David Lynch (just out in paperback)--it covers all of Italy (not just the Piedmont) but it also covers food pairing (courtesy of his mom Lydia Bastianich) and is loaded with wonderful consumer friendly information.

By the way--I second Brad's advice to try both "New" and "0ld style" Barolo (don't forget Barbaresco--which is also Nebbiolo but usually matures earlier).

I happen to love both styles!

right now the barolos of Marcarini are reasonably priced for the quality--around fifty to sixty bucks (you might even find em for forty or so).

←

Marcarini is not "reasonably priced for the quality" - if quality alone set the price they would cost more than Sperss. Manuel Marchetti is to be admired for his commitment to keeping his prices down - especially considering the spectacular quality of his wines. Unfortunately, most never understand how profound these wines are.

←

yes, you make a good point re: Marcarini. That is kinda what I meant--for the money they sell for these are veritable bargains and compete well in quality with Barolos that do cost much much more.

They are, simply put, outstanding examples of Barolo regardless of price.

[Bill Miller]

I have found that you can't go wrong with the dishes that come from the area in question.

The local folks seem to pair up food with the local wines (or is it the other way round?) with the best results!

I believe it is out of print-- but Matt Kramer's "A Passion for Piedmont" is a great book with many wonderful recipes from the Piedmont with lots of good wine info and perspective. kramer has  a real love for the region and has spent a lot of time there--not to speak of his not inconsiderable perspective on wine in general.

also

The best book on Italian wine at the moment is "Vino Italiano" by Joe Bastianich and David Lynch (just out in paperback)--it covers all of Italy (not just the Piedmont) but it also covers food pairing (courtesy of his mom Lydia Bastianich) and is loaded with wonderful consumer friendly information.

By the way--I second Brad's advice to try both "New" and "0ld style" Barolo (don't forget Barbaresco--which is also Nebbiolo but usually matures earlier).

I happen to love both styles!

right now the barolos of Marcarini are reasonably priced for the quality--around fifty to sixty bucks (you might even find em for forty or so).

←

Marcarini is not "reasonably priced for the quality" - if quality alone set the price they would cost more than Sperss. Manuel Marchetti is to be admired for his commitment to keeping his prices down - especially considering the spectacular quality of his wines. Unfortunately, most never understand how profound these wines are.

←

I have some '01 Marcarini on order--I plan to cellar it. How long do you think I should hold?

[Brad Ballinger]

I have some '01 Marcarini on order--I plan to cellar it.  How long do you think I should hold?

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How much longer do you plan to live?

[Craig Camp]

Manuel suggests waiting about 8 years before enjoyment, although it will obviously improve and keep for many decades.

[JohnL]

I have some '01 Marcarini on order--I plan to cellar it.  How long do you think I should hold?

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How much longer do you plan to live?

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Ahh the great conundrum!

The time to start collecting old style Barolos is when one is in their twenties and early thirties.

many of these wines are at their peak after fifteen to twwnty years in cellar.

Problem is--how many twenty five year olds have the resources?--a good cellar and lots of money.

Perhaps one of the greatest wines I have ever had was the 1970 Conterno Monfortino--at around age twenty five (the wine not me)!

Recent vintages of Monfortino go for two hundred bucks a bottle and optimistic as I am --I realistically do not see myself being able to enjoy wine at the age (mine) of ninety five or older!

so

I am learning to enjoy my old style Barolos with less development (the wine not me) and getting over my "fear of tannins."

I am also greatly appreciative of the newer styled wines from barolo as well as barbaresco!

If only at twenty five --i knew then what i know now (and had the money).

[JohnL]

Manuel suggests waiting about 8 years before enjoyment, although it will obviously improve and keep for many decades.

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I didn't know this. Thanks.

Actually I have enjoyed the wines at around ten years of age.--if there is such a thing--these are sort of "mid term" agers.

I have found old style Barolo in its youth to be impenetrable and totally unyielding but so glorious when mature.

[raxelita]

what types of food go best with these wines.

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Truffles, especially with mature wines, as in risotto or pasta with Parmesan and white truffle shavings. Wild mushrooms, especially porcini, either by themselves, in risotto or pasta or as a flavouring agent in stews. Game (pappardelle with hare sauce is classic). Pan-roasted quail, partridge and guinea hen. Kid stewed in red wine. Beef, venison or horse al Barolo. Veal or lamb kidneys, grilled or sautéed with mustard sauce. Parmesan and fontina cheese. Even beef or venison, roasted, pot-roasted or stewed, especially if you use northern Italian herbs, spices and aromatics. You might want to keep an eye on the A Year of Italian Cooking thread, as Kevin72 has announced he's extending it by a month in order to focus on Piedmont.

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Pork chops or Pork Belly and Barbaresco make me want to cry they're so good together.

Edited January 7, 2006 by raxelita (log)

[CtznCane]

Tonight, among other wines, we had the other bottle of Barolo (the Costa di Bussia) which wasn't that highly regarded here, but which we found pleasant once again. Not nearly as nice as the Cab we had (2000 Simi LandSlide Vineyard) but very pleasant. The real difficulty is that at the price range of Barolo's it is an expensive taste to play around with.

When it comes to Cabs or Zins or Pinot Noirs and a fair amout of other wines, we've tasted enough wines that (while I still don't enjoy doing it) if we spend 50, 60, or even 100 or more for a wine (and no we don't do it often) we typically have a comfort level with our decision. Spending 50+ though on something we've enjoyed but are not that familiar with becomes a little dicey. Not that it isn't worth it, but the comfort level is just not there.

The one wine I"m interested in trying more of now though is the Barbersesco's which look to be a more affordable alternative. I must admit though (as I finish the bottle which had one glass left) if I find a mediocre one to be quite pleasant, how delighted I'll probably be when I bite the bulllet and buy one of the better Barolol's.

[Craig Camp]

Tonight, among other wines, we had the other bottle of Barolo (the Costa di Bussia) which wasn't that highly regarded here, but which we found pleasant once again.  Not nearly as nice as the Cab we had (2000 Simi  LandSlide Vineyard) but very pleasant.  The real difficulty is that at the price range of Barolo's it is an expensive taste to play around with. 

  When it comes to Cabs or Zins or Pinot Noirs and a fair amout of other wines, we've tasted enough wines that (while I still don't enjoy doing it) if we spend 50, 60, or even 100 or more for a wine (and no we don't do it often) we typically have a comfort level with our decision.  Spending 50+ though on something we've enjoyed but are not that familiar with becomes a little dicey.  Not that it isn't worth it, but the comfort level is just not there.

    The one wine I"m interested in trying more of now though is the Barbersesco's which look to be a more affordable alternative.  I must admit though (as I finish the bottle which had one glass left) if I find a mediocre one to be quite pleasant, how delighted I'll probably be when I bite the bulllet and buy one of the better Barolol's.

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I have to admit that "pleasant" is not what I am going for when I go for Barolo. I am looking for excitement and precision. I want a wine with a cutting edge that makes my palate come alive. "Pleasant" may be acceptable for Simi Cabernet and Nebbiolo d'Alba and most of the wines that are available on a daily basis. However, Barolo is not one of those wines with only 8,000,000 bottles produced a year for the entire planet. A "pleasant" Barolo is a failure - and almost certainly a very bad value.

Edited January 11, 2006 by Craig Camp (log)

[Bill Miller]

When I realized my age relative to Barolo's prime age for consumption and added to that the fact there will be little or no quality Barolo in the '02 harvest, I called and increased my order of '01 Marcarini. I feel safe now.

[Pontormo]

carswell, mention away! I've a lot to learn about these Italian wines, primarliy this: what types of food go best with these wines. We've picked up a few Barolo and Barbaresco in our travels, and I'm stymied about what to make that would complement them well.

←

In the interest of more interaction between complementary threads from different areas of eGullet, I would like to extend an invitation to join us down at the regional forum for Italy & Italian Cooking.

In 2006, we are continuing in the spirit of a blog that Kevin72 began as a New Year's resolution last year in which he cooked specialties of some of Italy's regions, an effort that is being extended to the end of this month.

This year, we are joining in. At the moment, the topic is in fact Piemonte.

Please share your expertise and cook along with us.

[Peter Conway]

I am a big fan of Italina wines and have not found a Barolo I like for under $50.00 and the ones I realy like for over $70.00. So I don't drint them that often. Italian Red's can be very expensive compared to the rest of the world today.

One Barolo that got a 92 from WS, for whatever it's worth, and is fairly reasonable is Damilano Barolo. 30 bucks here in NJ. When I tested it alone I thought it was very nice. When tasted after the $$$ models it really lacked luster.

Another Italian wine that my California friends often like is Nero D' Avelo from Sicily. A good one to try is Firriato Chiaramonte Nero D'avola.

Enjoy.