US/FR Gastronomic Cultural Differences

[John Talbott]

A recent thread discussed an issue that I guess/think may hit on one of the many cultural differences between La France and another (our) republic -

During this 15 minute interlude no water was offered because the order

is taken w. the wine order. An attempt to get some seemed to irritate

our sullen sommelier.

I posited that this may have constituted a "cultural difference" at its origin - their and our formation, tradition and written or unwritten rules.

I suspect there are many more; for example,

- clients greeting the whole staff and/or the entire room in the provinces,

- servers telling us their names and professions,

- closing and placing the menus down as a signal that one is ready to order,

- finishing all one's food,

- wiping the plate clean with bread (a class issue I'm told),

- not clinking glasses (a class and age issue I'm told)

- not ordering a salad in a gastro place, or two starters and no main,

- not changing the order/menu (a la Jack Nicholson),

- not clearing the plates until everyone is finished,

- always commenting on the food,

- putting one's instruments of eating destruction in a 1-2 o'clock position as a signal that one has terminated (the meal not the life), and

- shaking hands and saying goodbye and 'til next time."

But there must be a million more. Yes No?

[Culinista]

As I posted in the thread you quoted, one major difference I noticed in France is that no one ever comes by periodically to ask, "Is everything OK?" Some North Americans feel neglected if this does not happen. (sometimes, they are)

Maybe too commonplace to mention is the idea that the check in France does not come unless you ask for it. Tables in better places are not turned. French people in American restaurants often get the impression they are being rushed out the door (sometimes, they are).

And of course, French waiters don't really hustle for tips since service is usually included and anything extra is totally optional. BTW, I often see tourists in Paris overtipping from ignorance rather than generosity, sometimes to the tune of 100's of euros.

In France, one never cuts lettuce. One folds it as best one can. I've also never seen a French person leave the table to go to the restroom during the meal.

In France, the entree is the first course, in the US, it is the main.

French people keep the knife in their right hands at all times, and both hands above the table at all times. Americans cut and switch. Left hands (for right-handed people, the reverse for lefthanded) are Ok under the table. Somehow, upper class Frenchwomen eat everything--even Laduree mini macarons--with knife and fork. I have never seen them touch any food with their fingers except bread. Somehow they don't leave a huge pile of crumbs. I chalk this up to secret training, like the ability to stride over cobblestones in high heels or tie a scarf.

Many times in high end French restaurants, the person the waiter presumes to be the host (always a man in my experience) gets the menu with prices, along with the wine list and eventually the check. The others do not. American waiters are generally more conscientious about not presuming who will be paying.

Coffee (or possibly an infusion) is essential after a French meal, but never with dessert. Always after. And almost never with milk, unless you must.

In America, the customer is king and can have whatever they are willing to pay for. In France, the customer is a guest and must be on good behavior.

Many French restaurants will split an order for you, often with no charge. American restaurants, if they do this, will charge.

I better stop now, but there are many, many differences, often leading to unnecessary misunderstandings. No one way of doing things is right, but it makes things easier if you are acquainted with customs.

Edited December 6, 2005 by Culinista (log)

[menton1]

One of the things I like most about a French meal is the time it takes. If you think good service is getting the next course just at the moment you take your last bite of the previous one, you will be greatly surprised. As a matter of fact, I hate this about many American restaurants. I want the meal to linger on!! 2 1/2 to 3 hours is de rigeur in France. As a matter of fact, most restaurants only do ONE seating for dinner. They don't turn the tables over. (There are exceptions to this, but they are the exception in France).

In France, the entree is the first course, in the US, it is the main.

This is more of a translation error that stuck, rather than a cultural difference. Once you get past the semantics, the "appetizers" and "main courses" are similar.

it makes things easier if you are acquainted with customs.

This is the cause of lots of friction and ill will. Many Americans who travel just don't bother changing anything, or learning anything about where they are going. This is a true "Ugly American" and perhaps these are the folks complaining that the French are rude. I've cringed many a time at loud, rude Americans in a restaurant assuming that all French people should speak English and just making fools out of themselves. Very embarrassing.

And let's not forget the "portable" credit card machines that they bring over to the table. If we had those a lot of fraud would be prevented!

[Busboy]

I never took anyone up on it, but in Provence, chefs and hosts at "nicer" several times offered to prepare special meals for my children, if they weren't happy with the menu. The dirty secret is that my kids were damn well old enough to eat what everyone else ate, and I would have been embarrassed to ask for something special for a nine- and twelve-year-old.

A nice gesture, though. And if I let my kids eat pizza at breakfast (those mobile pizza trucks at the markets) they were happy to eat like an adult at dinner.

[Lori in PA]

Many French restaurants will split an order for you, often with no charge.

Is that really so? If it is, I'm so glad. Dh and I eat lightly, but we love to eat well. I'd hear somewhere that sharing meals in France was a big no-no.

[Culinista]

Many French restaurants will split an order for you, often with no charge.

Is that really so?  If it is, I'm so glad.  Dh and I eat lightly, but we love to eat well.  I'd hear somewhere that sharing meals in France was a big no-no.

←

I should qualify: Mr. Creosote and I are not light eaters, and when we split portions, it is so that we can have at least one starter, fish course, and meat course, plus cheese and dessert. It is a no-no to eat off another's plate, which is why, if the preparation of the dish allows, restaurants will split them for you. Naturally, not all dishes work this way, and not all restaurants will do this. Most of the high-end ones will.

[John Talbott]

Great response Culinista.

This could turn into a very interesting discussion, for instance:

As I posted in the thread you quoted, one major difference I noticed in France is that no one ever comes by periodically to ask, "Is everything OK?" Some North Americans feel neglected if this does not happen. (sometimes, they are)

In the last 5 years in France I have never not been asked "Did that please You?' ""How was it?"

Maybe too commonplace to mention is the idea that the check in France does not come unless you ask for it. Tables in better places are not turned. French people in American restaurants often get the impression they are being rushed out the door (sometimes, they are).

This is your table - truly!

And of course, French waiters don't really hustle for tips since service is usually included and anything extra is totally optional. BTW, I often see tourists in Paris overtipping from ignorance rather than generosity, sometimes to the tune of 100's of euros.

Oh well, BT Barnum had a point.

In France, one never cuts lettuce. One folds it as best one can. I've also never seen a French person leave the table to go to the restroom during the meal.

Mais oui or yes but - nothing is so largely placed in front of you that you cannot manage it.

French people keep the knife in their right hands at all times, and both hands above the table at all times.

Ah hah, except for the lefties (les gauchiers - not the Commies mind you)

I have never seen them touch any food with their fingers except bread.

Mussels, oysters, crabs, shrimps?

Many times in high end French restaurants, the person the waiter presumes to be the host (always a man in my experience) gets the menu with prices, along with the wine list and eventually the check.

Not anymore.

The times they are a changing. More and more the PDG (CEO) or responsable or (horrors) Anglo boss is feminine; and the men listen to her attentively. Nice eh?

[jackal10]

This is too much like Hoffnung's advice to visitors

"On entering a bus or train carriage be sure to shake hands with all present"

There are many differences in customs. Here are some more.

In Europe

Hard liquor is rarely drunk before dinner - no Manhattans as aperitifs

Grace is not said in public, and rarely in private when guests are present except in religious foundations Religion is a private matter.

Salad is rarely a separate course, and if it is, it is served after, not before the meat.

The waiting staff (an honorable profession) are there to wait, not become you best buddy or beg for tips. Announcing their name is far too personal. Nor are expressions like "Have a nice day" used. What sort of day I have is my business.

Smoking is normal

Edited December 7, 2005 by jackal10 (log)

[Fat Guy]

There's a difference between a custom and a stereotype. Tipping versus the service charge, that's an issue of custom. "Americans don't bother to learn anything about the places they're going," that's either a stereotype or a nod to a stereotype -- and of course it's true of plenty of travelers from France as well (or maybe they're just pretending they don't know that tipping is customary here). I can also say, as an American who has always taken extreme care to learn local customs before I go anywhere, that I have received plenty of extremely rude service in France, especially in Paris. Not perceived rudeness on account of cultural expectations, but rather actual, universal rudeness in fact. On the whole, I think service in France is better than in the United States, but you can get excellent and terrible service in both countries, and both countries produce their fair share of rude waiters and inconsiderate, clueless tourists.

There's also a difference between a universal custom and a majority practice. Fork-switching is probably still the majority practice in America, but plenty of people here prefer European style -- from a time-and-motion perspective, it simply makes more sense, and I imagine it will continue to push the fork-switching method aside.

Split portions, without any fees or questions, are fairly common in the better American restaurants. Of course, many of the better American restaurants are French, which confuses the issue a bit.

[Carlsbad]

I have to say that in more than a few trips to France, including a good deal of time in Paris, I've never encountered any rudeness that I can recall. Maybe I have just been lucky.

As for service, I think there is a real difference between France and the US. I first noticed it before I went to France. In the '70's, we had dinner at a French restaurant in San Francisco that was owned by Rene Verdon, who had served as the White House chef under President Kennedy. Our waiter, who was French, was so professional that I still remember him clearly. (I also remember Verdon's lamb loin in pastry was so amazing to me that night that I quit trying to do anything "Wellington" after I had it.)

I think the difference is that Europeans in general see food service as a profession. Americans don't for the most part. I think it shows.

[John Talbott]

I have to say that in more than a few trips to France, including a good deal of time in Paris, I've never encountered any rudeness that I can recall.

←

I have been treated rudely twice in 30 years; once by the Italian manager of a pretentious oil-vinegar shop, the other time by an Eastern European salesperson in a specialty food shop. As we have discussed on this thread before, the seemingly brusque, hurry-hurry, rush-rush of cafe and/or brasserie garcons is part of the "show" and their efficiency - not to be confused with rudeness.

[Felice]

In America, the customer is king and can have whatever they are willing to pay for. In France, the customer is a guest and must be on good behavior.

I think this statement is very true. In France, when you enter a restaurant or a shop, it's like entering someone's home and you are a guest and must act accordingly. It's one of the reasons you're expected to say "bonjour" when first entering and "au revoir, merci" upon leaving. Unfortunately, if you don't follow these social norms, you will come off as being impolite and in turn might get poor service.

I'm not saying all bad service is due to this, of course, as bad service exists everywhere.

[bleudauvergne]

I think Steven is right about not letting ourselves push too far into stereotype, and Jack hits it the nail on the head with

This is too much like Hoffnung's advice to visitors

"On entering a bus or train carriage be sure to shake hands with all present"

.

The French are not nearly as clueless (or put off) about the tourists not being experts in the complexities of French etiquette. The only real custom that is taken badly by everyone involved is talking at a decible level above that of everyone else.

To assume that you're going to get an intolerant server and a consequent rudeness by fork switching, cutting your salad, touching your frites, failing to say hello to all of the fellow diners, or by asking for water is pushing it a bit far, don't you think? Lets say an American in France gets exasperated because they aren't offered water when they arrive, a matter of their own custom and habit. They roll their eyes and start to make comments about the French, which very often the French understand, by the way. It's not asking for water that puts off the sommelier, it's the American getting exasterated at the sommelier for being so 'clueless' that gets him riled up.

Lets not pretend that France is full of automotons who cannot comprehend that someone is foreign and therefore are completely intolerant when it comes to some table manner issues that may or may not be observed these days, even in the French home!

I have no specific memories of rudeness anywhere. My one pet peeve - is my presence not being acknowledged. In a cafe, if my presence is not acknowledged, really, a glance from a passing server is enough, within my personal time limit, I move on. I don't dwell on it. After all these years I still do have problems with servers who completely ignore you as if you don't exist for long periods of time, and this happens from time to time as well at service counters, ticket booths, when entering a store, etc. How someone can carry on a long conversation on the telephone without even acknowledging the arrival of someone in person, even with a nod, is beyond me, and the same applies for people arriving in a cafe. But, as Steve, says, maybe it is not a custom, but universal rudeness. If it is rudeness, I can say I've experienced it plenty of times. When this happens in a cafe, I simply put on my gloves and move on.

[Nicolai]

Yes it is stereotype and Clichés, but no one wants to admit to it.

The Americans are perceived as culturally deficient and the French as up turned Pompadours.

The first moment you step in a top restaurant or establishment, you are immediately judged before you utter a single word. It is your style, clothes, demenure and shoes that say more about you than your verbal skills.

Irrelevant of your nationality, you are subconsciously categorized by the Maitre d' or Sommelier or attendant. You are weighed as to whether you dignify the place or you are to be treated as a "tourist".

If you are familiar with the French language then by all means indulge, but if you don't, either carry it with a big smile or stick to the original lingo and it will work wonders. However, avoid showing what you are not and be yourself.

It is little things from holding the wine glass to cutting the bread (on rompt le pain). It is crossing feet under your chair to wearing the obnoxious university ring. It is scorching the French language for words like Lingerie or "amuses-bouches" while originally it is "amuses-gueules" which are supposed to be offered only in very particular situations and not part of a meal ad eternum. It is the tone of voice and the volume. It is the reverence of the place and most of all it is the "savoir-vivre" and it is France.

[Culinista]

Bleudeauvergne and some others, I am not saying that not following/knowing French customs will get you rude service. I also had no intention of proclaiming universal custom--obviously not everyone in France or America behaves the same way. I was simply listing gastronomic cultural differences that I have observed. I should also mention that I don't appear American (I am Japanese), but I have lived in both France and the US. I wouldn't want to take sides.

I've never had rude service in any restaurant that I recall, but maybe because I choose not to take offense at things that are clearly common practice, like French service pacing or American waiters announcing themselves by name. (And this practice isn't even all that common beyond TGIFridays, and I suspect those waiters are told to do it by the management.) The whole point of my post was that knowing these different practices and taking them as they are understood in the context of local restaurant culture prevents misunderstanding. When in Rome is the way I survive in all the places I've lived.

[menton1]

I don't think the lines for stereotype and customs are that blurry... French rudeness is a Stereotype-- In all my travels to France, I can't really recall an incident of blatant rudeness on a French person's part. As a matter of fact, the French are actually a MORE polite culture than Americans-- strict rules of etiquette are expected to be followed there.

Saying "bonjour" and "au revoir" upon entering and leaving a shop are strictly expected by the French-- this is a custom that, if not followed, will generate negative feelings in the shopkeeper or clerk.

Reiterating what I've said before, I think the American (mis)use of the word "Entree" in restaurant menus is now a CUSTOM that somehow stuck from a mis-translation of the word. I seem to recall that many years ago, American restaurants used the word "Entree" quite properly for the starter plates. Perhaps someone can shed some light on how this mis-nomer evolved here...

[bleudauvergne]

Culinista, I think we actually agree. When in Rome... Your comments are helpful, I appreciated them. After all this thread is about gastronomic cultural differences. I'm sorry, my post above does seem a bit disagreeable, doesn't it. I meant that the people who make faces when things aren't done the way they are at home have nothing to complain about.

Wow, sounds like Nicolai has had some pretty bad experiences in France. Sorry to hear about that. I have never ever gotten the impression that I was being pre-judged.

[Nicolai]

Wow, sounds like Nicolai has had some pretty bad experiences in France.  Sorry to hear about that.  I have never ever gotten the impression that I was being pre-judged.

←

Au contraire, I only have good experiences in French establishments apart the odd hick up.

I was refering to my observation of American/French behaviour and interactions.

[ludja]

Is the sometime miscommunication restricted to American tourists? To what extent do similar misunderstandings occur with British visitors, other Europeans, Asians or others from around the world?

edited to add: I realize this is slightly OT from the original thread, but am truly curious if some of the cultural differences with respect to food and dining are as apparent with other visitors to France and/or if they are perceived differently by the French.

Edited December 7, 2005 by ludja (log)

[John Talbott]

Is the sometime miscommunication restricted to American tourists?  To what extent do similar misunderstandings occur with British visitors, other Europeans, Asians or others from around the world?

edited to add: I realize this is slightly OT from the original thread, but am truly curious if some of the cultural differences with respect to food and dining are as apparent with other visitors to France and/or if they are perceived differently by the French.

←

Au contraire, I think this is on topic. While we are a US site, we're interested in views from other places. Vive la difference!

[Pan]

I don't think the lines for stereotype and customs are that blurry...  French rudeness is a Stereotype-- In all my travels to France, I can't really recall an incident of blatant rudeness on a French person's part.  As a matter of fact, the French are actually a MORE polite culture than Americans-- strict rules of etiquette are expected to be followed there.[...]

←

As a general case, I would agree entirely.

And here's another person who's had very good experiences with service in France, with very few exceptions. The fact that I speak some French (pretty good though with some accent, when in practice) helps, but then again, I also usually get good service in the US. By the way, I also found the Quebecois really nice, which is quite unlike the stereotype about rude Quebecois that I've heard from various people (especially some Anglo Canadians, it seems). I assume that my being able to speak French helped there as well, but isn't it reasonable to try to speak some of the local language in any case?

It seems to me that most of what we're talking about really has to do with whether a traveller has made an effort to learn about and show respect for local customs, and it wouldn't be surprising for those who show they're making an effort to be treated more warmly than those who show they aren't. I recall being in Budapest and learning enough Hungarian to answer "Mast nem kerek, köszönöm" ("I don't want anything more, thank you"), the appropriate answer for a question about whether you want anything else. Just for that effort, I got a smile and an exclamation of "Nagyon jol!" ("Very good!") So in the end, people in different parts of the world really aren't that different. The customs are different, but I think for the most part, the desire to be respected is the same.

[Bux]

I have never seen them touch any food with their fingers except bread.

Mussels, oysters, crabs, shrimps?

Many times in high end French restaurants, the person the waiter presumes to be the host (always a man in my experience) gets the menu with prices, along with the wine list and eventually the check.

Not anymore.

The times they are a changing. More and more the PDG (CEO) or responsable or (horrors) Anglo boss is feminine; and the men listen to her attentively. Nice eh?

←

I fondly recall the time Mrs. B picked up her pigeon bones in a pleasant one star restaurant in the Loire Valley. Our, then eleven year old, daughter all but hid under the table out of embarrassment, reappearing in public above the edge of the table only when she saw the waiter arrive with a finger bowl. At that point she surmised this must be an accepted protocol as there seemed to be a well ordered staff response with its own time honored implements. While haute cuisine tends towards an hands off refinement, the French are more than comfortable touching thier food when it's appropriate. On the other hand, I don't expect to see corn served on the cob anytime soon.

I find the practice of presenting only one menu with prices to be alive and well, although it's a practice I find offensive in principle. I'd not like to be married to a silly little thing who couldn't be bothered to worry about the household budget, or a wife who wouldn't sometimes take me out for a birthday dinner at a fine restaurant. What is curious, is that I still remember certain restaurants from our early travels in the countryside of France back in the sixties. What was common then, and perhaps less so today, was to see the wife/mother pick up the check and pay the bill from her purse in those pre-credit card days. Not sure if it happens as often today, or if we just eat in different sorts of places.

[Bux]

I think that many Americans who think they've taken sufficient care to learn local customs, then mistakenly assume the rudeness they encounter is not perceived rudeness, when in fact it's often no more than that and due to a subtle misapprehension of appropriate local etiquette. In France I have some insight as the result of our daughter's marriage to a Frenchman. That insight doesn't stop me from making gaffes, but it enables me to get a clue after it's too late. Cultural mores and etiquette aren't like math or geometry. They are not even as logical as conjugations and the pronunciations of town names. The rules don't build on each other in a rational way and the French are an unusually formal people, in my opinion. They are unlike other Latin or Mediterranean cultures in that aspect and far more formal than the British in their manners, again in my opinion.

[Fat Guy]

I have no specific memories of rudeness anywhere.  My one pet peeve - is my presence not being acknowledged.  In a cafe, if my presence is not acknowledged, really, a glance from a passing server is enough, within my personal time limit, I move on.  I don't dwell on it.  After all these years I still do have problems with servers who completely ignore you as if you don't exist for long periods of time, and this happens from time to time as well at service counters, ticket booths, when entering a store, etc.  How someone can carry on a long conversation on the telephone without even acknowledging the arrival of someone in person, even with a nod, is beyond me, and the same applies for people arriving in a cafe.  But, as Steve, says, maybe it is not a custom, but universal rudeness.  If it is rudeness, I can say I've experienced it plenty of times.  When this happens in a cafe, I simply put on my gloves and move on.

←

I would say those are examples of rudeness, but perhaps that's my cultural misapprehension. Perhaps in France ignoring people is not rude, or perhaps there's some vibe one gives off that causes one to be ignored. If so, I guess I'll try not to let it bother me anymore. Then again, the number of times I've seen French people get angry at French waiters in France for ignoring them would seem to indicate that at least some French people if France feel that being ignored is evidence of rudeness.

Without labeling it rudeness or not rudeness, let me recount an incident I witnessed at La Cote St. Jacques, a Michelin three-star restaurant (this was just a few weeks before it was demoted to two stars, and we often joke that a Michelin inspector must have been there on the night we were). There was a family there with two babies and a dog. A French family, that is -- later I learned they were from nearby in Burgundy -- and I assume the dog was French too, though it was a Westie. Anyway, the dog was, unlike every other dog I've seen at a nice restaurant in France, extremely ill mannered. It kept yapping, and this caused the babies to cry. It was pretty distracting, and a couple of (French) customers complained to the waitstaff. After about an hour of this, a (French) customer picked up one of his dinner rolls and threw it at (and hit -- it was a good shot) the back of the head of the man who seemed to be "in charge" of the ill-mannered dog and family. When the head of the family turned around to see where the roll had come from, the guy who had thrown it said (I didn't capture all the subtlety, because my French sucks, but I got enough of it) if you can't control your dog and your kids you should be eating at "McDo." After that, the staff moved the family into one of the private dining rooms. The whole incident was the talk of the hotel the next day.

To me, it felt as though there was plenty of rudeness to go around, not to mention some neglectfulness by the staff -- the private room solution should have kicked in much earlier. But hey, maybe it was all only perceived rudeness.

Regardless, we're not here to establish whether there is or is not any rudeness in France. The issue on the table is differences in dining customs. My observations earlier were intended to steer folks away from stereotyping and hasty generalization and towards actual differences in customs. So, needless to say, the cultural difference I meant to discuss in the above example is that in France they allow dogs in most restaurants, whereas in the United States they don't.

[fresh_a]

Kind of like driving in France. If someone pulls out in front of you in a dangerous manner, and you flip him off, nine times out of ten, the driver will get extremely angry, gesticulate, and not understand how you can judge his driving. I've seen this many times. There seems to be a certain trait in some (or a lot of) French in that they hate being told what to do, or any negative comment in their regard, whether they were in the wrong or not.

Edited December 8, 2005 by fresh_a (log)