Personal Taste

[Bux]

The rights of an individual, or those of certain dishes, may not be the real issue here. With rights come responsibilities. Do I have the right to order my sashimi well done? Hmm. I don't like the inference that I might do that. Let's ask if diner "X" has the right to order his sashimi well done. or his steak tarare. Could a diner make that request without an ignorance of the dish in question?

Adam, I'm afraid that part of the problem here is that this is a cultural issue and some bashing may be called for. On the whole, if you really examine the attitudes of foreigners in restaurants abroad, you may find that the American traveler is one of the best educated in terms of the local foods and customs, but we shouldn't deny the very strong tradition we have in the U.S. that the customer is always right. It's odd that for a country that has never had royalty or a true artistocratic class, we are so quick to form a subservient class with no rights at all--the shopkeeper/restaurateur class. Maybe it's that we all see ourselves as aristocrats and need peasants to support our inflated egos.

It's a matter of ignorance that the diner doesn't understand the nature of the meat. The reverse case might be a German who has a taste for raw pork and didn't understand that raw pork in the U.S. cannot reasonably be assumed to be safe to eat. Of course the responsibility of the chef to educate the diner or to refuse to serve this request might be greater. No one can deny the right to remain ignorant. It is undeniably an American right, but I haven't found another country where it's not a commonly supported principle whether or not it's a right upheld by law.

[Basildog]

We have Rack of Lamb on the menu alot, and when it is ordered , we tell them its served pink unless they like it another way.Yes , well done rack of lamb is a waste of a fine cut , but they are paying for it, so we cook it how they want.

Another point is that there seem to be plenty of restaurants out there serving rare lamb as pink, so the customer gets confused as to what the hell "pink" means.Maybe we need a colour chart on the menu

[Adam Balic]

What you're doing, Adam, is to impose your own taste on that of your friend (either way round in your example). You have never in your life tasted Montrachet with lemonade. How do you know it doesn't taste better than Montrachet alone ? Or better than lemonade alone ? Is your problem related to the price of Montrachet, or it's quality, or its inherent esoteric value?

No, I am imposing my respect for the product. At an extreme I may even go as far as to say that even if Montrachet (were ever "Montrachet" is mentioned think "Ultimate expression of an Ideal food -stuff") did taste better with the addition of lemonade, it shouldn't be drank in such a manner.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Well you have shifted gears from a restaurant where they are paying money to your home where they are your guests. You are just saying that in your home there are certain rules that guests must live by and not mixing Montrachet and lemonade is one of them. But to be honest about it, if you had a guest who was insisting on mixing white wine with lemonade, they wouldn't insist on Montrachet. You could go give them buggers wine and they would be happy. This reminds me of a story my friend Gora told me last night. He had bought two cases of 1983 Guigal La Mouline in Switzerland which a friend stored for him at his house. Unbeknownst to the friend, the wife drank the wine up over time. Even giving away bottles to her friends as gifts. So when Gora shows up to collect the wine, she tells him she drank it all and told him she had bought wine to replace it with which turned out to be Gamay. So that is what's wrong with your example. People who mix wine with lemonade, won't insist on Montrachet. And people who know anything about food would have happily kept the steak in all it's rarities. But people who *want to eat and drink what they like* in spite of all admonitions are entitled to. And you have the choice of not inviting them to your home again.

[Adam Balic]

It's a matter of ignorance that the diner doesn't understand the nature of the meat.  No one can deny the right to remain ignorant. It is undeniably an American right, but I haven't found another country where it's not a commonly supported principle whether or not it's a right upheld by law.

Maybe this is the heart of the matter for me. I can see no positive aspect of ignorance. If somebody has the right to be ignorant, then do I not have the right to educate them?

[Holly Moore]

If this had happened in the United States the waiter would be at fault for not controlling his table. Well done steak eaters, like those who commandeer the passing lane and drive 10 mph under the speed limit, are all too common a scourge within the U.S.

As it occurred in Italy, there is no blame to be assigned. It is merely a clashing of cultures. As the Florentine restaurant and server become more accustomed to Americans they will know to discuss degree of doneness with American diners.

There is one thing I don't totally understand in this episode. Why would a well done Italian bisttecca be any more "tough, tasteless and dry" than the well done American T-Bone that this table of Americans knows and loves? I'm assuming it is because the European beef has not the marbling of USDA Prime or even Choice, but I would also expect a well done T-Bone to be tough, tasteless and dry in any language.

As to the rights of the dish, they do not supercede the rights of the diner. The dish, through it's representative, the server, does have the right to make it's preference for preparation known to the diner, but must resign itself to having it's fate in the diner's hands.

[Adam Balic]

Well you have shifted gears from a restaurant where they are paying money to your home where they are your guests. You are just saying that in your home there are certain rules that guests must live by and not mixing Montrachet and lemonade is one of them. But to be honest about it, if you had a guest who was insisting on mixing white wine with lemonade, they wouldn't insist on Montrachet. You could go give them buggers wine and they would be happy. This reminds me of a story my friend Gora told me last night. He had bought two cases of 1983 Guigal La Mouline in Switzerland which a friend stored for him at his house. Unbeknownst to the friend, the wife drank the wine up over time. Even giving away bottles to her friends as gifts. So when Gora shows up to collect the wine, she tells him she drank it all and told him she had bought wine to replace it with which turned out to be Gamay. So that is what's wrong with your example. People who mix wine with lemonade, won't insist on Montrachet. And people who know anything about food would have happily kept the steak in all it's rarities. But people who *want to eat and drink what they like* in spite of all admonitions are entitled to. And you have the choice of not inviting them to your home again.

Forget about the location or the actual food item. To take your example, I would say that what that woman did was wrong because she did it in ignorance. On the Flip-side Andre Simon had a crystal tankard that he drank lesser chapagne out of (had stars etched in the bottom, so that the champagne would create streams of bubbles from those points). He did this with full knowledge of the merits of the product he was drinking ie cheap fizz to have some fun with.

[Adam Balic]

There is one thing I don't totally understand in this episode.  Why would a well done Italian bisttecca be any more "tough, tasteless and dry" than the well done American T-Bone that this table of Americans knows and loves?  I'm assuming it is because the European beef has not the marbling of USDA Prime or even Choice, but I would also expect a well done T-Bone to be tough, tasteless and dry in any language.

Oh, I only used this example as that is what I saw. Yes, it doesn't really matter were the meat came from or what nationality the people were, the issue was that they were ignorant of the qualites of meat.

[Peter B Wolf]

I don’t know why everyone is so adamant about “rights”, whether it’s the customer’s, the establishment’s or even the product’s. Adam asks simply what the behavior of the customer should have been. I think the customer (please note I do not specify “American”) should have accepted the way it was done. He, the customer, was in a different environment (country). And if he was referring to his human rights, he should get off his American supremacy notion and learn things can and are different somewhere else. And these differences should be accepted.

No one in their right mind would go to a clothing store, see a blouse on the rack, like the style, but not the color and tell the sales person/owner to dye this item to their liking. They would just have to go somewhere else and find what they want.

The same goes with cars; you don’t get Volkswagen with Caddy fins.

Or did you hear about the guy who bought property in Nevada, and insisted to get an ocean view.

Now you can take me apart, but don’t take my glasses, I won’t be able to read the blasting I’ll get.

[Adam Balic]

Another point is that there seem to be plenty of restaurants out there serving rare lamb as pink, so the customer gets confused as to what the hell "pink" means.Maybe we need a colour chart on the menu

Certainly a colour chart that points out the difference between pink and blue.

[Adam Balic]

As to the rights of the dish, they do not supercede the rights of the diner.

Even if the diner is ignorant of what are the inherent qualities of the dish?

[Steve Plotnicki]

"Maybe this is the heart of the matter for me. I can see no positive aspect of ignorance. If somebody has the right to be ignorant, then do I not have the right to educate them?"

Not in a democracy. People have the right to remain ignorant. You might have the right to encourage them to educate their palates, but it's something that is voluntary. That point encapsulates both the good part and the bad of a democratic system. People are allowed to vote the wrong candidate into office and people are allowed to eat their steaks overcooked. But telling people how *they have to* eat their steaks is the same as telling people what books they can or can't read. No mind police here please. And no palate police either. You have the right to associate with like palates, which I guess is why you are on eGullet.

[Wilfrid]

Yes, Peter, I don't think it has anything to do with "rights" either. I think it is about ignorance and education, but only up to a point. There are cultures where meat is never, and I mean never eaten rare. Someone raised in such a culture is revolted by rare meat. Now, they might gradually learn to love it, but there is no point forcing it on them, and certainly no point "educating themn", in the sense of explaining to them that it tastes better. They will listen to your argument, try it, and then throw up.

I speak from personal experience.

However, once you take your pick, you take the consequences. I sat opposite someone (an American) in a restaurant last week who ordered the strip steak medium, then said it was dry. He didn't complain, and just as well. If you like well-cooked beef, you must accept that your beef is going to be somewhat dry. The family in Adam's original example should have been educated about that fact - politely. Again, I speak from personal experience. I often order well-done beef in restaurants (not for myself), and a good waiter will say "You do realise that will be a little dry. Is that okay?"

P.S. Macrosan - I know what you mean about Nico's behavior, but he never went out of business.

[Adam Balic]

"Maybe this is the heart of the matter for me. I can see no positive aspect of ignorance. If somebody has the right to be ignorant, then do I not have the right to educate them?"

Not in a democracy. People have the right to remain ignorant. You might have the right to encourage them to educate their palates, but it's something that is voluntary. That point encapsulates both the good part and the bad of a democratic system. People are allowed to vote the wrong candidate into office and people are allowed to eat their steaks overcooked. But telling people how *they have to* eat their steaks is the same as telling people what books they can or can't read. No mind police here please. And no palate police either. You have the right to associate with like palates, which I guess is why you are on eGullet.

Can you have a democracy that has the right to remain ignorant? Which model of democracy is this? I know of at least several dozen. Ignorance is the death of democracy of any model. Oh, I will not burn steaks, just as I will not burn books .

[Holly Moore]

There is one thing I don't totally understand in this episode.  Why would a well done Italian bisttecca be any more "tough, tasteless and dry" than the well done American T-Bone that this table of Americans knows and loves?  I'm assuming it is because the European beef has not the marbling of USDA Prime or even Choice, but I would also expect a well done T-Bone to be tough, tasteless and dry in any language.

Oh, I only used this example as that is what I saw. Yes, it doesn't really matter were the meat came from or what nationality the people were, the issue was that they were ignorant of the qualites of meat.

I was more wondering why they found well done Italian beef objectionable as they prefer their U.S. beef to be cooked well done.

[Adam Balic]

However, once you take your pick, you take the consequences.  I sat opposite someone (an American) in a restaurant last week who ordered the strip steak medium, then said it was dry.  He didn't complain, and just as well. If you like well-cooked beef, you must accept that your beef is going to be somewhat dry.  The family in Adam's original example should have been educated about that fact - politely.

Oh, I would never not be polite (more Montrachet for me any how).

[Holly Moore]

As to the rights of the dish, they do not supercede the rights of the diner.

Even if the diner is ignorant of what are the inherent qualities of the dish?

Yes. As I said initially

The dish, through it's representative, the server, does have the right to make it's preference for preparation known to the diner, but must resign itself to having it's fate in the diner's hands.

The server can recommend and encourage, but the diner has the final say.

[Adam Balic]

I was more wondering why they found well done Italian beef objectionable as they prefer their U.S. beef to be cooked well done.

Oh, sorry I see. I'm guessing that they have been informed that Bistecca was famously good. The problem being that it has a famously good steak, and maybe they just don't like steak that much. Also the Bistecca they were given was grilled over charcoal, maybe they a use to a cookin method or cut of meat that you can cook till well-done, but is still relatively tender (fillet?).

[Adam Balic]

As to the rights of the dish, they do not supercede the rights of the diner.

Even if the diner is ignorant of what are the inherent qualities of the dish?

Yes.

I don't agree, the diner should eat something else.

[Steve Plotnicki]

"Can you have a democracy that has the right to remain ignorant? Which model of democracy is this? I know of at least several dozen. Ignorance is the death of democracy of any model. Oh, I will not burn steaks, just as I will not burn books"

Well if you want to describe it in those terms, you are just saying that as long as people are allowed to remain ignorant, things do not change for the better. That is patently untrue. I am sure there are counteless members of this board whose palates have been edcuated to things like how meat should be properly cooked when they grew older. I having grown up in a kosher home, where everything was zapped well done by the domestic version of ray guns from Flash Gordon shorts, didn't start eating my meat rare until I was 30 years old. The occassion was a dinner at Bofinger in Paris where the 75 year old mother of one of the other diners at the next table was waxing rhapsodic about her filet steak that was so raw it could have still been alive. It was there and then my wife and I (also a product of food cooked by lasers) knew that rare was the right way to eat it. And we started to forces ourselves to eat it that way even though it used to repulse us.

[macrosan]

I don’t know why everyone is so adamant about “rights”, whether it’s the customer’s, the establishment’s or even the product’s. Adam asks simply what the behavior of the customer should have been

No, Peter, it was Adam who first used the word "rights".

I think the customer (please note I do not specify “American”) should have accepted the way it was done. He, the customer, was in a different environment (country). And if he was referring to his human rights, he should get off his American supremacy notion and learn things can and are different somewhere else. And these differences should be accepted

No, Peter, the American customer was invoking his customer's rights which are (in any country in the world) to spend his money on what he chooses, and to ask for what he wants to spend that money on. Italian customers do exactly the same thing, by the way. Some of them also eat well-done steak. An American may choose to follow local eating customs in Italy if he wishes, but he may equally choose not to. It is his choice as a customer.

No one in their right mind would go to a clothing store, see a blouse on the rack, like the style, but not the color and tell the sales person/owner to dye this item to their liking. They would just have to go somewhere else and find what they want. The same goes with cars; you don’t get Volkswagen with Caddy fins.

You're wrong, Peter. You can get mostly whatever you want if you have the money to pay for it. I don't know about VWs, but you used to be able to get Caddy fins put on Morris Minis, and you could get Lotus engines put in them. Of course women buy blouses and have them dyed to the color they want. Why on earth not? Of course women buy designer clothing and have the designs altered.

Or did you hear about the guy who bought property in Nevada, and insisted to get an ocean view

No, but I did hear the true story of the billionaire who bought an ocean-going ship and insisted on having it moved to the desert. And guess what --- "no problem, sir"

Now you can take me apart, but don’t take my glasses, I won’t be able to read the blasting I’ll get.

I promise I won't touch your glasses

[Blue Heron]

I remember many years ago the first time I was ever served Seared Tuna. I didn't know it was supposed to be served that way, thought they had undercooked it, and sent it back to be cooked further. They obliged, and it came back not tasting very good. I left unhappy about the meal. In retrospect, I would have preferred they first had told me that was the point of the dish, and ask if I still wanted it to be cooked further, as I would have then known the chef knew what he was doing and I would have eaten and enjoyed it as is.

[Jinmyo]

Blue Heron, there's the germ of a good new thread in that story.

[bushey]

LOL…First I see the scene in The Big Night where the chef goes on a rampage because a patron wants an order of pasta along with his risotto, then I hear my mother’s voice saying to my father “It’s a shame what you do to a good piece of meat, it’s like shoe leather”.

I relate to the example of strip steak vs ribeye for well-done lovers, since this is what I do at home for my family. Four of us prefer medium rare and one will not touch a piece of meat with any bit of pink. I also plan to experiment with having some of our steaks cut extra thin so it’s easier to coordinate cooking times.

I don’t think preference for well done steak is necessarily related to taste alone. In my father’s case it was a texture thing – he gets the willies if there’s any “give “ in the meat. In my daughter’s case she prefers to get as far removed as possible from associating what she’s eating with a living animal. In fact, if her sisters want to push her buttons they ask what part of the cow our steaks come from..........Vegetarianism may not be too far away for her.

Blue Heron -- I had a similar experience with tuna, but fortunately we were sitting at the bar right in front of the line and the chef/owner was supervising. We had a chat about the proper way to cook tuna (he was also the chief fisherman who went out on the boats to catch the tuna) and although we had a couple of back-and-forths with my tuna for further cooking I was able to catch it at just the right stage. Unfortunately, I've not been able to duplicate that right stage at home

[LaNiña]

I have a friend who will only eat meat very very very well done. It makes me insane. He actually no longer orders meat when we go out because I can hardly tolerate it. He uses the "but I want to share with you" excuse, but truly, I think he just feels my horror.

My paranoid stepfather will only eat fish cooked thoroughly, including tuna. Oh god. So we have to go through this whole routine every time, separating everybody's food on the grill in the summertime.

Won't these people learn???