Starting 'em young

[Rebel Rose]

When my son and oldest niece were about seven, and I had just moved to Paso Robles, we had a family Thanksgiving in our (then) rented home. I had just started working in the wine industry, for a winery that specializes in Italian varietals. While the ladies were enjoying a glass of bubbly, and the guys were muscling the turkey into the oven, the kids disappeared into the back bedroom. After a while, we realized that the four children present were awfully quiet, so we went to check on them.

We found them sitting powwow on the floor around a tray holding four wine glasses and an open bottle of Martinelli's sparkling apple cider. Colin poured each of his guests a very correct two ounce pour, and announced solemly, "THIS is Nebbiolo." They all drank. He poured again. "And THIS is Sangiovese."

My SIL and I made it all the way back to the kitchen before collapsing into bubbly-fueled giggles.

My son is now 22, and an excellent cook with a pronounced affection for sangiovese.

[rich]

My grandfather served me wine with dinner when I was four years old and I never stopped. I see no reason why anyone at any age should avoid wine (unless there is a medical reason). Wine is an important part of the food chain and a gift to us from nature - enjoy.

Newborns would probably be healthier with an ounce of wine than several ounces of canned formula.

[Brad Ballinger]

I see no reason why anyone at any age should avoid wine (unless there is a medical reason). Wine is an important part of the food chain and a gift to us from nature - enjoy.

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Wine is also an alcoholic beverage, and it's up to parents to determine if there will be any adverse consequences to letting children sample alcohol. Not to be prudish, but my daughter won't be served wine or any other alcoholic beverage in our house until she is 21. She is currently 15. My wife and I adopted her one year ago. Her birth parents both abused alcohol, and she is likely at risk for doing the same. We are attempting to teach and model responsible behavior with respect to alcohol, which includes wine.

As parents, we have three choices -- 1) remove it from the house, never let her see us imbibe, preach alcohol is evil; 2) model responsible behavior, and take advantage of opportunities to teach about responsibility and decision-making; 3) get hammered and not care.

I know the dangers of her viewing alcohol as taboo. And she has seen firsthand the dangers of abuse. She has never seen responsible behavior with respect to alcohol. I only have six more years to teach her -- one instance at a time.

In two weeks, I'm hosting a wine tasting in our home. Our daughter has asked if she can taste. I've told her she can take part in the wine tastings when she is 21. I also told her it's a wine tasting event, and not a wine drinking event, and I will be regulating how much each person has to drink (the wines will be all mine). I've told her I'd pay her if she wanted to help serve, but that will be the extent of her "getting started."

[Marco_Polo]

Brad, I can certainly understand and respect your position. Your deep love and understanding of wine certainly comes through in your posts and so does your responsibility as a father.

For ourselves, our son accompanied us on all our book research trips from when he was a baby. That inevitably has meant spending a lot of time in the wine country. When my wife was pregnant, we were researching and photographing 'The Wine Roads of France'; when our son was 2 we spent a year in Italy touring vineyards to write and photograph 'The Wine Roads of Italy'; and when he was 3 we did the same in Spain for that companion volume. In the Italy book, there is a photograph of him standing next to a bottle of Barolo that is almost as big as him. When he was 3, I recall a most splendid meal in the dining room overlooking the cellars of Marques de Murrieta at which they laid a place for him, served him every course, and offered him a tiny taste of every wine that we ourselves enjoyed. I think he spent a good deal of the meal drawing pictures in their splendid leather-bound visitors book, but I remember he took a tiny sip of some if not all of the wines all the same.

Our son will be 18 in a few weeks time. He has enjoyed a half glass or so of wine with our meals for the last few years now. In Britain the legal drinking age is 18, so he will soon be able to go into a pub to order alcohol. But he knows that drink - and that wine in particular - in this house is simply a wonderful daily accompaniment to food, and I very much doubt if he will abuse it. I am confident that has not been harmed in any way by being introduced to wine from an early age.

That summer when my wife was pregnant before he was born, we tasted from the cask Chateau Margaux 1986. The wine was almost as black as ink, and so concentrated that it was impenetrable. After our son was born, we purchased a case of this wine for him. He has known all his life about 'his Margaux', which has been in storage all this time. Next month, I'll have it delivered. We will enjoy a bottle on his birthday, and leave the rest for him to mark the most special moments of his life. Our daughter, born five years later, has her own store of very good Brunello di Montalcino.

Wine is special. Wine brings joy to life. That is what I hope they have both learned.

MP

Edited September 28, 2005 by Marco_Polo (log)

[Busboy]

Last time we were in Paris we dined at a lovely white-linen tablecloth place in the 7th, Clos des Gourmands. As he was pouring the wine, the waiter extended the bottle towards my then-15-year-old son, with that twinkle servers of certain age will get when they're offering a "taboo" treat. Much to the waiter's surprise, and mine, my son just said "non."

Apparently he's adopted.

[Rebel Rose]

I only have six more years to teach her -- one instance at a time.

I think that's beautiful. She'll have plenty of time after her 21st birthday. As we can all attest.

[helenjp]

Brad, you and your new daughter can surely succeed at this! My husband's father is an alcoholic. One of his sons doesn't drink at all, his daughter occasionally has one drink on special occasions, and my husband has a host of rules that he imposes on himself - not more than x drinks a day, not more than 1-2 times per week, never drink two days in a row, etc. etc. Maybe that's over the top, but that's his way of promising himself that his life won't be like his father's.

As our sons enter their teens, we will be thinking about this issue too.

[Abra]

My stepfather was from Italy, and I was allowed sips of wine as far back as I can remember. I also remember that I didn't like it a lot, and thought of it more as a tasting novelty than a beverage, until I was an adult. There were alcohol issues in my birth family too, but I didn't take them with me when I left home.

Mainly what I took away was the idea that a good meal is much enhanced by a good wine. I've mastered the good meal part, and now I'm working on my wine skills.

[Rebel Rose]

And let's remember that teaching kids about wine does not necessarily mean drinking wine. Certainly my seven-year-old son was not tippling with his cousins. The amazing thing to me was that he had observed and remembered the process of tasting, and even more amazing, he could pronounce Italian varietals correctly (back when most of our traffic came from Bakersfield and they asked for Nebbolio.)

Fifteen years ago, the schools here in San Luis Obispo County had a very bad attitude toward local wineries because we are "alcohol." That was awkward, because even though there were only twelve wineries at the time, there were 200 vineyards, and of course the many agrarian-based families, shall we say. Someone came up with the idea of writing a coloring book about wine for the elementary schools, which went a long way toward smoothing relations.

[dvs]

my dd had her very 1st taste of wine at 6 months - we were at stags leap & she was in the front pack on my husband's chest. he dipped his finger in the glass & gave her a drop.

ever since, she's loved the vino... she even makes the "tisk, tisking" sound of tasting when she is lucky enough to get a drop. have we created a monster? who knows...

we would like her to become one of the youngest female sommeliers (along w/ being president of harvard), so, we figure we should start early...

Edited September 28, 2005 by dvs (log)

[FabulousFoodBabe]

Newborns would probably be healthier with an ounce of wine than several ounces of canned formula.

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I can't stop thinking about the scene in Brave New World -- where the embryos get dripped with alcohol to form an underclass/working class. An ounce of wine to an infant ... oy.

that said, my sons had their first wine experiences at Bar Mitzvahs; they proclaimed the wine 'nasty.' Their palates are pretty sensitive and wine is too much for them, though we let them have a taste when they want it. And after a long day of dirty, hot hard yardwork, the boys can sit and have a beer. With us. Usually 2 sips is all they want, and they know they can't drink and leave the house.

My family was off-the-boat Italians, and I used to get anisette from my favorite uncle at all the family gatherings. My grandfather made his own wine and that stuff was about 90 proof. All the kids got a little bit in their glass when they got to be about 10-11; we usually pretended to like it. It was no big deal, but we had to find other things to do in secret that my parents would have gone nuts about.

By contrast, my husband's parents dont' drink for religious reasons. He and his siblings all were getting hammered at the age of 14-15. Any family gathering is still focused on the absence of alcoholic beverage, but at least his mother doesn't cringe any more when she sees me with a martini.

[rich]

Newborns would probably be healthier with an ounce of wine than several ounces of canned formula.

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I can't stop thinking about the scene in Brave New World -- where the embryos get dripped with alcohol to form an underclass/working class. An ounce of wine to an infant ... oy.

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Do you think it should be more?

I honestly don't see the difference between 15, 18, 21 years of age. Naturally, if there is a history of alcohol abuse in the family, that falls under the medical exception I made. But to prevent a 15 or 16 year old from sharing wine during dinner could be asking for trouble. What is taboo in the house becomes a desire outside the house and you can't follow teenagers everywhere.

I used to dip my finger in red wine and let my niece lick it when she was a couple of months old. She's 19 now and enjoys wine with dinner. She has never been "drunk" nor has she developed a craving. She is a beautiful, smart healthy girl who is away at college who thoroughly enjoys the pleasures of wine.

I should mention that my wife is a nationally-known pediatrician and her thinking is very similar.

[Jaymes]

I lived in Europe when I was a child. I noticed that children there often got wine with dinner. It was watered down. You'd see the parents in restaurants pouring water and wine together in varying degrees of strengths, depending upon age. More water than wine for the smaller ones, etc. Their theory was that wine is just something you drink, primarily with meals. Better to teach kids that, they believed, instead of making it some great big deal, or rite of passage, or forbidden fruit, or some other something of import and meaning.

And that's what my parents did, too. And when I was in high school and some of the kids would get all excited about having alcohol, I didn't get the attraction.

But nobody in my family has a drinking problem. Hard to say how that would have affected their choices.

[jsolomon]

Fifteen years ago, the schools here in San Luis Obispo County had a very bad attitude toward local wineries because we are "alcohol." That was awkward, because even though there were only twelve wineries at the time, there were 200 vineyards, and of course the many agrarian-based families, shall we say.  Someone came up with the idea of writing a coloring book about wine for the elementary schools, which went a long way toward smoothing relations.

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Does that coloring book still exist?

[Malawry]

I was never denied alcohol as a child. We always had wine at dinner on Friday nights (Shabbat). If my father had a cocktail in his hand and I asked what it was, he'd tell me patiently and always offer me a sip. I'd usually try it and tell him I didn't like it. I never saw them drunk--they both were fairly moderate drinkers and they both shared a distaste for the company of those who imbibe to excess. Once when I was 9 we went out to a fancy Italian restaurant for my birthday and my parents ordered wine. The server started to put a glass down at my place and I said, "No, thank you, I will not be drinking tonight." This story still kills my mother.

Dad once engaged me when I was coming in from a date when I was in high school--he was pouring himself a nightcap and invited me to join him at the bar. We sat on the floor and he pulled out every bottle in there and explained what it was, how it was made, and where and when he bought it. (Many of the bottles came from my parents' honeymoon, or international vacations they'd taken together.) We were down there for over an hour talking about what alcohol was. It's one of the warmest memories I have of that high school period of my life.

I didn't start drinking much until after I turned 21 because it held no mystique for me. If I'd wanted to, I could have poured myself a glass of wine or a cocktail anytime I was at home and nobody would have cared. I just didn't have a taste for it until I got a little older. I was mystified by my high school and college classmates who got trashed on a regular basis. Substance abuse held absolutely no appeal for me.

My husband has a family history of alcoholism, and now that I'm pregnant I know we'll have to wait and see what our child's genes seem to be like--if the child develops a propensity for other addictions or what. But we've agreed that I will be the one to take charge of alcohol education. My spouse doesn't drink at all, ever, but then he never had healthy alcohol behaviors modeled for him. I plan to maintain the public bar in my house after the baby is born, to continue to order wine with dinner, to continue to offer friends a cocktail when they visit. And I plan to give my child the same education I was offered--straight, no-nonsense information, without any puritanical denial or sense of the forbidden.

[Rebel Rose]

It does, and it's been improved, but I don't have a copy as I no longer have kids in elementary. Basically, it talks about vineyards first, and the important work done there, then it talks briefly about how the grapes are processed, with a final family scene where the adults have a glass of wine. The focus is on the fruit, how it's grown and processed.

Note to all: what I'm reaching for in this thread (and maybe I'm reaching too far?) is not another discussion about whether or not it's okay for kids to have alcohol.

Let's assume that in a wine-appreciating family, kids are aware of wine.

When do they start understanding why Daddy swirls his wine? Can they pick out aromas? Do they understand that wine is made from grapes? Have they seen vineyards? Can they pronounce tempranillo? Do say they cute things about wine?

[Jaymes]

Years ago, my son was an altar boy at our local Catholic church. One Sunday, right in the middle of service, we couldn't help but notice that the priest had interrupted his ritual and was giving one of the altar boys a royal chewing out.

Later, I asked my son what that had been all about.

He said, "Oh, Father Frank was mad at Matthew. He was sneaking wine during service again."

[JohnL]

Wine (and all alcoholic beverages) need to be placed in context.

I can say from experience that the major problem with children and alcohol is far too many view alcohol as a means to get high.

That is beer is not viewed as a nice accompaniement to a sandwich or wine as a drink to enjoy with dinner.

Many kids drink to "get drunk."

Having said this, I have found that children in families that enjoy wine and beer with food and dine together in a convivial atmosphere generally see alcohol in a good positive context.

Whether children are allowed to have small amounts of alcohol at dinner or not is not as important as their being exposed to alcohol in a specific context.

Most alcohol--wine, beer, spitrits are acquired tastes--unless sweetened or disguised in some manner (fruit juices, soda pop etc). Most children will not really enjoy drinking wine or beer or spitrits --so offering a chance to taste these drinks can be a good thing--they see adults enjoying them responsibly and understand that the purpodse is not to get drunk and that the taste is not something they are drawn to initially.

Just as kids need positive reinforcement--parents and adults can provide sensible negatives to drinking--that is children need to understand that being drunk or impaired is not a good thing and has consequences.

However just providing the negatives will actually drive most kids to try alcohol--taboo is good!

Remember prohibition?

In the end, most kids will try alcohol--its part of being a kid to try things good and bad. Adults can help most by providing a good context for alcohol by example as opposed to preaching or being a 'cop."

[Brad Ballinger]

What is taboo in the house becomes a desire outside the house and you can't follow teenagers everywhere.

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Yep. Which is why we are not making it taboo by demonizing it or eliminating it. Rather, we are trying to teach and model responsibility. And all the professionals we're working with tell us we're doing the right thing. But I'd bet the cellar she's going to drink at the first party that presents her with an opportunity. I can't do anything about that.

But I can show her that there are more than two alternatives (abstinance or drunkenness), and can teach her about the production of the beverage and so on. And we've talked about people who can stop after a certain number of drinks, and people who can't stop -- and how she will have to face that herself soon enough if she chooses to drink.

On one side of her coin, she's proclaimed she will never drink, and has made comments about being bothered by seeing the wine in the wine cellar. It now has a solid door with a lock to (hopefully) create an out-of-sight, out-of-mind, out-of-temptation effect. On the other side of her coin, she's pretended to be drunk after one sip of communion wine (thinking it's funny), she's asked to have a glass of wine, and she's bragged about drinking wine coolers in the past. She needs to be handled delicately.

I know her tastes, and she's not going to like wine anyway (unless it's Bugey Cerdon). She's going to go for the sloe gin, blackberry brandy, peach schnapps, etc.

If she had been my daughter since birth, I probably could do many of the excellent things mentioned in this thread. But her birth mother dumped her off with birth father because raising a toddler was cutting into her partying lifestyle. Birth father would drink beer and get abusive.

On both sides of my family going back two generations I am the only male who is not addicted to alcohol. My two grandfathers abused alcohol until their deaths. My only male uncle abused it but has been sober for years now. My father committed suicide by drinking himself to death. My brother can't handle alcohol, and has been sober for over ten years. This also includes all my male cousins, but I don't need to go into their stories.

I'm not trying to be preachy or to hijack this thread. But what I am saying is that there are a number of different ways to teach children about wine (and other alcoholic beverages). And they are watching us more than we may think.

[rich]

He said, "Oh, Father Frank was mad at Matthew.  He was sneaking wine during service again."

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Just for the record. I tried that once when I was an altar boy - very ugly stuff.

[Jaymes]

...we are trying to teach and model responsibility.  And all the professionals we're working with tell us we're doing the right thing.

I'd just like to say that on a personal level I very much admire you for taking on this quest. It's clear that you are going about it with care and thought, and under no illusions as to the difficulties and uncertainties you may face. But you undoubtedly are making a huge difference in the life of this one child.

Bravo to you.

[rich]

What is taboo in the house becomes a desire outside the house and you can't follow teenagers everywhere.

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Yep. Which is why we are not making it taboo by demonizing it or eliminating it. Rather, we are trying to teach and model responsibility. And all the professionals we're working with tell us we're doing the right thing.

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Brad, I'm sure your are. In my original post I referred to a medical reason exception and certainly a family history of alcohol abuse falls into that category. My step-father was an alcoholic and it became a sad situation.

What you're doing for your step daughter is more than admirable.

[Michael M]

I lived in Europe when I was a child.  I noticed that children there often got wine with dinner.  It was watered down.  ...Their theory was that wine is just something you drink, primarily with meals.  Better to teach kids that, they believed, instead of making it some great big deal, or rite of passage, or forbidden fruit, or some other something of import and meaning.

And when I was in high school and some of the kids would get all excited about having alcohol, I didn't get the attraction.

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Exactly how I was raised. What wasn't forbidden never did have the cachet that it did for others. And I remember reading statistics somewhere comparing American teen-drunk-driving with those in countries where alcohol is a normal part of everyday life enjoyed in moderation, and Americans came out far worse.

[jsolomon]

Let's assume that in a wine-appreciating family, kids are aware of wine. 

When do they start understanding why Daddy swirls his wine?  Can they pick out aromas?  Do they understand that wine is made from grapes?  Have they seen vineyards?  Can they pronounce tempranillo?  Do say they cute things about wine?

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There are a lot of things in this question to sink our wine-stained teeth into.

Does Daddy know why he swirls his wine? Does Daddy really taste his wine and talk about it during the meal? Does Daddy ask Junior or Junioretta about the flavors and textures that the children can find?

Personally, I would love to do that to my meals. But, my fiance` doesn't look at food as I do, and does not experience food in my way (lo', she doesn't even have a user name here!). I would assume that if I had children, I would expect something of that. I would also expect them to assist in the meal planning and making.

But, at what age do I think kids are capable of this? 12-ish years old. About the time they are getting old enough for the adults to transfer the truly mature ones to the adult table.

[JohnL]

I lived in Europe when I was a child.  I noticed that children there often got wine with dinner.  It was watered down.  ...Their theory was that wine is just something you drink, primarily with meals.  Better to teach kids that, they believed, instead of making it some great big deal, or rite of passage, or forbidden fruit, or some other something of import and meaning.

And when I was in high school and some of the kids would get all excited about having alcohol, I didn't get the attraction.

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Exactly how I was raised. What wasn't forbidden never did have the cachet that it did for others. And I remember reading statistics somewhere comparing American teen-drunk-driving with those in countries where alcohol is a normal part of everyday life enjoyed in moderation, and Americans came out far worse.

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I agree with your premise.

However, the Europe analogy doesn't work. Europe includes many countries that have alcohol abuse problems some more severe than the US.

What you are on to--and I agree with--is the tradition of serving alcohol with food at family dinners is conducive to children seeing adults enjoy wine etc in its proper context and acting responsibly.

It is no secret that adult behaviour (especially that of parents and relatives and authority figures etc) has a major impact on children and their development.

Whether or not, children actually taste or drink alcohol, diluted or not, is secondary at best.