Burger helper

Magus · September 21, 2005

Does McD's still serve hot apple pies? Or are they considered tiny, napalm-laden lawsuit bombs? I couldn't find a reference at their corporate website. Anyway, you can see where I'm going here, probably.... Might you figure out a way to reinvent handheld pie sans the third-degree tongue burns?
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I rememberd when I worked there as a lad, the pies came frozen. They were kept in the freezer and then deep fried. Now, because of being sued. they are just baked.

TPO · September 21, 2005

I like the cookie idea for one reason -- burgers and fries are very filling, so people might not have room for a piece of pie. But a cookie? Well, there's always room for a cookie! Although if you do have a premium ice cream, it might be nice to have fresh pie available for a la mode.

With milkshakes, you probably will have to experiment. I like the idea of real cream, but combined with a high-fat ice cream it might actually be too rich for people to enjoy with a meal. I also don't know if syrups would be needed. One thing I remember about my friends in Minnesota, however, is that they all love malts.

bronihk · September 22, 2005

been lurking and am so impressed with the thought process going into this. I'm very into the warm cookie idea and think not enough take-out places (or restaurants in general) offer them. in elemantary school we had a cookie line that served 3 hot cookies (for a buck, it was a while ago) in a bag for about 20 min a day...the line was incredibly long but so worth it. would love to have that option at a burger/shake place as a small, sweet ending to a great meal.

Magus · September 22, 2005

Ive been thinking. When ever I go to either Mcdon's , the BK lounge or Wendys. They always have burgers ready. My issue is to cook a great bruger, it is going to take some time.

Do you think that people really mind waiting if the food is good.

Should I keep the burgers somewhat thin so that they cook faster.

Or should I put it in the marketing that good food takes time to prepare.

Its not like I am going to have a drive thru or anything.

We just live in a time where people want it yesterday.

I have been thinking about this and how I would feel if I had to wait outside for my food.

Another thing. I "want" to be open all year round but that may not be possible with the weather.

M.X.Hassett · September 22, 2005

I do not think that people would have a problem waiting. I live right around White manna, Hirams, Callahans, etc... and nobody has a problem waiting. I would also second the idea of offering malted shakes. Best of luck and thanks for posting.

TPO · September 23, 2005

I mentioned Matt's in Minneapolis in a previous post. Their Juicy Lucy burger is famous, and there is always a wait to get one. No one seems to mind. Like them, you could allow people to call their order in ahead of time.

Where I live now there is a sandwich shop that is famous locally. They open at 10 a.m. and the line for sandwiches starts shortly after that. It's a small store and only a few people can fit in at a time, and in the middle of a New England winter people will stand outside to wait for one of these sandwiches.

Once your food is known, people will not mind waiting. Until then, I really don't think people will approach your dining car with the expectation of it being like McDonald's. If you are going to put something in your marketing materials and/or menu about the wait, I would say burgers are not cooked until your order is placed (or something like that) to play up the angle that the food is fresh and worth waiting for, rather than just telling people it will be slower than fast food.

Magus · September 23, 2005

Burger Size. Does size matter.

There are a couple of pubs that serve a 1/3rd lb burger. I have found that the "norm" is a 1/4 lb. The 1/4 lb is based on McDee's.

Also, I have a seasonal food stand now that I opperate at major football games. I cook the burgers on a 24 in gas griddle. The problem is even with a 24in commercial griddle, I cant keep up with the demand. I wanted to make a name for myself before I went into anything bigger. I wanted to see if the market could handle more burgers. Right now I am only serving my classic burger. My last event, I timed it...I served 120 burgers in one hr. I know because I cooked all of them myself! I see repeat customers, they know my name...its a GREAT FEELING.

I have been doing this for the past three weeks. I had an older man tell me "now I can die.. That was the best burger that I have ever had"...I just stood there...floored, and said Thank You, gave him his money back and told him that it was on me. This guy looked like he has been around a while. The sad thing was my thought at the time was, Im just getting started...I'm still learning.

I want to thank everyone who responds to this list...I am learning something new everyday and that will only make me better.

Please keep the ideas comming. :wink:

Edited September 23, 2005 by Magus (log)

MarketStEl · September 23, 2005

I'm surprised you even wondered whether people would wait for good food. Of course they will, and your own experience proves it!

You must have put some "magic mushrooms" on your burger before writing that post. :wink: Everything you've written thus far has made it clear that you're basing this business on quality, and when it comes to food, quality takes time. We may be in an era where people "want it yesterday," but there are millions of us who don't mind waiting if what's at the end of the line is worth the wait. (In Philly, for instance, this describes a sandwich from Koch's Deli.)

But could you please, please, pleeeeease tell us exactly where in the Midwest your trailer is going to be?

Edited September 23, 2005 by MarketStEl (log)

Magus · September 23, 2005

The establishment will be located in Michigan :biggrin:

Magus · September 23, 2005

Burger Recon.

There is a very popular burger (M)aker that we all know of. Some how, I have in my hands the Standard Operation Procedures of said burger maker. I now know everything that goes on in the back office. what they cook, how they cook it and for how long. It is very detailed.

I do have one thing to say...I thought they at least used a real dairy mix for their shakes... :hmmm:

MarketStEl · September 23, 2005

I do have one thing to say...I thought they at least used a real dairy mix for their shakes...
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Let me guess: Something derived from seaweed?

Nonfat dry milk powder?

Sodium caseinate?

Chocolate flavored Coffee-Mate®?

Congrats on scoring a copy of "How Not to Make A Hamburger Worth Waiting For."

I'll bet--completely without sarcasm--that it's fascinating reading, and that Mark Twain quip about laws and sausages probably applies to reading this book as well. :cool:

Magus · September 23, 2005

I do have one thing to say...I thought they at least used a real dairy mix for their shakes...
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Let me guess: Something derived from seaweed?
Nonfat dry milk powder?
Sodium caseinate?
Chocolate flavored Coffee-Mate®?
Congrats on scoring a copy of "How Not to Make A Hamburger Worth Waiting For."
I'll bet--completely without sarcasm--that it's fascinating reading, and that Mark Twain quip about laws and sausages probably applies to reading this book as well.
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It is fascinating..To know what the used to do...when I worked there many moons ago vs. what they do today. They have totally dumbed down their whole system. Just by reading the material it brings to mind one of my favoite sayings ....If you want square work, you cant cut corners!!

crinoidgirl · September 23, 2005

The establishment will be located in Michigan
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Yay!!!!

Magus · September 26, 2005

I have been doing some more burger recon. It seems that there is a lot to take into consideration First, meat to fat ratio. It seems that if you go with a lean cut of beef, then it lacks that juiciness. Where as if you go with a modest fat content, you get a great tasting burger, but it shrinks all to heck, so you are almost forced to go with a bigger burger.

With this said, what would be a good size. 1/4lb or 1/3rd lb.

(Based on precooked patty weight.)….I always wanted to say that. :biggrin:

This leads into my next question. Burger presentation. I already know that it is unacceptable to have the bun bigger in circumference than the burger itself. What seems more pleasing, the burger being the same size as the bun or overhanging the bun.

Condiments

I personally like romaine lettuce over iceberg

.

Beefsteak or Heirloom tomatoes.

Kosher dill pickles.

Red or White onions.

Home made mayo or Helmans.

What condiments do you like?

Next would be burger thickness. I don’t want to be anywhere near the (oversized, super size, biggie) craze. But what would be a good thickness of a burger. Keep in mind that it will be cooked on a griddle rather than a char broiler. Griddles have more cooking surface area than a char broiler. I have also been thinking about grinding my own burgers. I was thinking, If I could make the burgers into meatball shapes, I could fit more fresh burgers in the fridge, not have to worry about them being smushed…if that’s a word, and then give them an initial smash when they are put on the grill, then they will have those beautiful irregular edges.

What are your thoughts?….

Edited September 26, 2005 by Magus (log)

snowangel · September 27, 2005

Beefsteak or heirloom tomatoes will be a challenge most of the year in Michigan...

MarketStEl · September 27, 2005

I have been doing some more burger recon. It seems that there is a lot to take into consideration First, meat to fat ratio. It seems that if you go with a lean cut of beef, then it lacks that juiciness. Where as if you go with a modest fat content, you get a great tasting burger, but it shrinks all to heck, so you are almost forced to go with a bigger burger.
With this said, what would be a good size. 1/4lb or 1/3rd lb.
(Based on precooked patty weight.)….I always wanted to say that.

My own experience is that 80/20 ground beef produces an adequately juicy burger with a little less shrinkage. You might even be able to use 85/15 if shrinkage is a major worry for you. (Does McDonald's specify fat content in its manual?)

Depending on the price you want to charge, a 1/3 pound burger will probably look and taste better.

This leads into my next question. Burger presentation. I already know that it is unacceptable to have the bun bigger in circumference than the burger itself. What seems more pleasing, the burger being the same size as the bun or overhanging the bun.

My personal preference is for a burger just a little bigger than the bun--another argument for the higher precooked weight.

Condiments
I personally like romaine lettuce over iceberg.
Beefsteak or Heirloom tomatoes.
Kosher dill pickles.
Red or White onions.
Home made mayo or Helmans.
What condiments do you like?

I'm with you on the lettuce. Will you be able to get a constant supply of good heirloom tomatoes year-round in Michigan? If not, go with the beefsteaks.

Red onions are sweeter than white ones, and if you're going to serve them sliced rather than chopped, I'd use the red variety. I'm partial to hamburger dills on the burger itself rather than kosher dill spears on the side, but if you are serving your burgers on a plate, I'd go with the spears. If you mainly plan to sell these to travel, find a source of kosher dill chips and place them on the burger. Given all the time and effort you're putting into the rest of the product, why not give yourself a break and use Hellman's? You're going to need large quantities of mayo, after all. But what about ketchup and mustard? (Dijon, preferably.)

Next would be burger thickness. I don’t want to be anywhere near the (oversized, super size, biggie) craze. But what would be a good thickness of a burger. Keep in mind that it will be cooked on a griddle rather than a char broiler. Griddles have more cooking surface area than a char broiler. I have also been thinking about grinding my own burgers. I was thinking, If I could make the burgers into meatball shapes, I could fit more fresh burgers in the fridge, not have to worry about them being smushed…if that’s a word, and then give them an initial smash when they are put on the grill, then they will have those beautiful irregular edges.
What are your thoughts?….
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I'd definitely form my burgers as balls and flatten them just prior to throwing them on the grill. You will also get slightly thicker patties that way. For a 1/3 pound burger, I'd say a 1/4-inch-thick patty would look beautiful, but that thick of a patty might not fill the bun.

PCL · September 27, 2005

Been enjoying this thread, and I wish you luck Magus. One thing I wanted to throw into the mix (mind you I"ve only read up to like, halfway down page 2), is that perhaps you'd want to think about the packaging of takeaway products.

One of the issues that US-based food outlets are criticised for is the sheer amount of packaging involved. I mean, I was in SF like, 3 months ago, and most days I'd buy lunch from an outlet, be it tex-mex, burgers, sandwiches whatever.... the amount of plastic and styrofoam I had to deal with totally boggled my mind.

How would you deal with this at your establishment??

Magus · September 27, 2005

Been enjoying this thread, and I wish you luck Magus. One thing I wanted to throw into the mix (mind you I"ve only read up to like, halfway down page 2), is that perhaps you'd want to think about the packaging of takeaway products.
One of the issues that US-based food outlets are criticised for is the sheer amount of packaging involved. I mean, I was in SF like, 3 months ago, and most days I'd buy lunch from an outlet, be it tex-mex, burgers, sandwiches whatever.... the amount of plastic and styrofoam I had to deal with totally boggled my mind.
How would you deal with this at your establishment??
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Well, as far as packaging...these are my thoughts.

Cold cups for sodas and milkshakes. (paper)

Burger Wrap (white butcher paper) with a sticker of the logo to hold the paper together. On this, I can short hand things like sandwiches (plus or minus) something.

Fries..(white paper cone)

Takeaway bag (white) with logo on it

Magus · September 27, 2005

Progress:

I found a place to park my establishment. I went to the owner (an older gentleman) and told him that I would like to park my establishment on his property. After I told him what I wanted to do, with the detail that I was going for the 1940-50 look he was so happy...he said that he will charge me $35 bucks a month....Wow.

Also, I have tracked down another source for Beef tallow. The only issue is that it is 95% beef tallow and 5% soybean oil. Does anyone know if this combo of shortening will be an issue.

Other offerings:

My thoughts.

Breaded red fish burger

Chopped lobster burger

Portabella burger

black bean burger

Blue cheese burger

marinated chicken burger

(sorry I dont have any names for the burgers yet)

Friers:

Regular potato

Sweet potato

O-Rings

Does anyone know anything about onion rings? I would like to make fresh onion rings but dont know the best onions to use for this. Should they be beer battered. or breaded.

Or

Should the menu be trimed down a bit...again, I would rather have a fantastic small menu than a good big menu.

Edited September 27, 2005 by Magus (log)

Jason Perlow · September 27, 2005

Also, I have tracked down another source for Beef tallow. The only issue is that it is 95% beef tallow and 5% soybean oil. Does anyone know if this combo of shortening will be an issue.

No, its probably not an issue. Soybean oil is actually a very good oil for deep frying because of the very high smoke point.

MarketStEl · September 27, 2005

Progress:
I found a place to park my establishment. I went to the owner (an older gentleman) and told him that I would like to park my establishment on his property. After I told him what I wanted to do, with the detail that I was going for the 1940-50 look he was so happy...he said that he will charge me $35 bucks a month....Wow.

Congratulations!

Other offerings:
My thoughts.
Breaded red fish burger
Chopped lobster burger
Portabella burger
black bean burger
Blue cheese burger
marinated chicken burger
(sorry I dont have any names for the burgers yet)
Friers:
Regular potato
Sweet potato
O-Rings
Does anyone know anything about onion rings? I would like to make fresh onion rings but dont know the best onions to use for this. Should they be beer battered. or breaded.
Or
Should the menu be trimed down a bit...again, I would rather have a fantastic small menu than a good big menu.
←

I'd also focus on doing a few things well at the outset.

That said, it's a good idea to offer alternatives for your customers who might not want beef. I'd probably offer either chicken or fish but not both, plus the portabella mushroom burger--a nice, hearty-flavored offering for vegetarians.

How much room will you have to store stuff? That also needs to be factored in when considering what you can offer. I assume you will have access to a large freezer off-site where you can store whatever you will not be using that day? If the space in the trailer is as compact as I suspect it is, you should probably stick to three burgers, two or three cheeses (blue is a very good option), regular fries and maybe o-rings.

Magus · September 27, 2005

How much room will you have to store stuff?

Well, the entire trailer (kitchen) will be about 350sqft

Roughly 8x30 or 8x40...that range.

I assume you will have access to a large freezer off-site where you can store whatever you will not be using that day?

Yes, I have access to a commercial kitchen.

TPO · September 27, 2005

Sounds like things are going very well so far! As for the menu, I would stick with a just a few basic items, but then offer the types of condiments that would offer a lot of variety to those few items.

Breaded red fish burger: A fish burger is nice, but not necessary. Do it if you can, but if it turns out to not be feasable don't worry about it.

Chopped lobster burger: Personally, I wouldn't do it. But then, I live in Maine and have a thing against lobster that's been frozen or refrigerated for any period of time.

Portabella burger: Most definitely! There are restaurants I go to just because they offer this. It's an easy solution for vegetarians.

black bean burger: I don't think I'd bother with this and portobello burgers. I'd pick one, and then add the other if you feel the demand is there. If bean burgers make more sense because they are not as perishable as portobello mushrooms, then by all means start with bean burgers.

marinated chicken burger: Personally, if I were dining at your establishment I would love seeing a chicken option more than a fish option. I think chicken is almost a necessity, whereas I think fish burgers would be nice only if you have the ability to do both.

As for the blue cheese burger, I'd offer at least three different cheeses (and for me, one would have to be feta!) to allow people to have a variety of sandwiches.

Magus · September 27, 2005

No, its probably not an issue. Soybean oil is actually a very good oil for deep frying because of the very high smoke point.

High smoke point? Does this mean that the oil breakdown is less. (last longer)

I can cook at higher temps?

Magus · September 27, 2005

Potato issue:

I just got off the phone with my local produce guy and he informed me of the following.

The kind of potatoes that I wanted Russet Burbank are not available all year, I guess there are two months out of the year where they are not available.

He also went on to tell me that the Burbank is only one kind of Russet. They also grow a potato called Norcoda and Gold Rush. From what I gather, the Burbank is the best because of the low moisture content. They will be unavailable from the middle of Sept to the end of Oct. This means that I may need to switch to the Gold Rush potato and adjust the fryer temp to acount for the higher moisture content.

With a fresh potato, I will also have to deal with the price going up and down along with potato size. These I can not control...I have to leave this up to mother nature and the whole supply and demand rules of the market.

It takes alot of work to produce a great product. Now I see why so many (fast food) establishments go with a frozen fry

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