the pasta debate

[Adam Balic]

I agree entirely about the terminology. Sadly, I'm not sure that 'noodle' helps either as then you run into trouble with confusion with gnocci and Northern dumplings etc.

I must say that I have enjoyed this discussion very much and it has been a particular pleasure to discuss the topic with the person who's book I most often consult on the topic.

re: Historical crops. There is some fancinating data reported by John Letts in the UK. Not quite as early as we are discussing and the wrong part of Europe, but you might find this of interest.

Medieval crops

[archestratus]

Which reminds me, that in medieval times in northern Italy macaroni was a word used for what we today call gnocchi.

Thanks for the Letts article. It's an interesting and novel approach.

[Adam Balic]

Which reminds me, that in medieval times in northern Italy macaroni was a word used for what we today call gnocchi.

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Ah, well this exaplains how Boccaccio managed to roll his macaroni down the mountain of Parmesan then.

[Knicke]

LiveScience.com via Yahoo

Very neat!

[Pan]

Very interesting stuff!

Here's an excerpt:

When the archeologists examined the starch grains and microscopic mineral particles that form in plants called "phytoliths," they received another surprise: the ancient noodles were not made from wheat like modern noodles, but from millet, a type of grain that, along with rice, formed the foundation of agriculture in ancient China.

Is millet still used much in China today?

[lperry]

I can't speak for modern China, but I know that millet was the major northern crop in ancient times. This area is much drier than the south where rice became so important.

Great article. I'll try to get a copy of Nature tomorrow.

-Linda

[Hest88]

But did they taste good? ;-)

[I_call_the_duck]

But did they taste good? ;-)

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Hest, you took the words right out of my mouth!

[Adam Balic]

Very interesting stuff!

Here's an excerpt:

When the archeologists examined the starch grains and microscopic mineral particles that form in plants called "phytoliths," they received another surprise: the ancient noodles were not made from wheat like modern noodles, but from millet, a type of grain that, along with rice, formed the foundation of agriculture in ancient China.

Is millet still used much in China today?

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This is odd, I though that this had already been well established (also there a numerous type of "millet", especially in China). Not sure why there would be any surprise at this fact as soft wheat didn't originate in China after all.

edit: although finding such a well preserved sample of this age is cool.

Edited October 13, 2005 by Adam Balic (log)

[lperry]

This is odd, I though that this had already been well established (also there a numerous type of "millet", especially in China). Not sure why there would be any surprise at this fact as soft wheat didn't originate in China after all.

edit: although finding such a well preserved sample of this age is cool.

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It is very well established. The archaeologists were trying to find what kind of grain was used, and the choices were millet and rice. I think the popular press introduced wheat into the discussion.

According to the article in Nature, they were able to identify two distinct species of millet used together in the noodles.

-Linda

[Adam Balic]

I see, thanks for the information I will look forward to reading the article.

Golly, just imagine that 4,000 years ago when the present day Brits ancestors were chomping on boiled lumps of stodge, the Chinese were making noodles. Amazing how times have changed.

[MobyP]

I see, thanks for the information I will look forward to reading the article.

Golly, just imagine that 4,000 years ago when the present day Brits ancestors were chomping on boiled lumps of stodge, the Chinese were making noodles. Amazing how times have changed.

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Nice one centurion, like it, like it...

I'm waiting until they dig up the bottle of 4000 year old black bean sauce in the pit next door.

Edited October 14, 2005 by MobyP (log)

[SuzySushi]

My husband has the further theory that if the noodles had been in the bowl, they had probably been left out deliberately as a votive offering -- and were not just something that someone forgot to eat or threw away.

[Ben Hong]

The age-old debate (never in my mind though) as to who "invented" the noodle has been definitively, irrevocably and finally settled. In all the news media of the past several days, headlines were proclaiming that an inverted bowl filled with long strands of fine noodles was found in China after being excellently preserved under a mud layer for over 4000 years.

Italian cuisine second only to Chinese cuisine in greatness is still number two in the pasta realm.

[Megan Blocker]

Ben - there's already a thread on this one: click!

Enjoy!

[Ben Hong]

Recent media headlines all over have shouted the discovery of a 4000 year old bowl of noodles in China. There should be no more questions as to who made noodles first.

But if I were Italian, I would wonder how many discoveries my ancestors really did make. Chris Colombus did not discover the new world because the Chinese and the Vikings did. Surely the Sistine Chapel was not painted by a Greek house painter, ...was it?

[rjwong]

Here are all the links to all of the discussion threads dealing with this topic:

the pasta debate

World's Oldest Noodles Found!

Origins of noodles/pasta

Origins of the NOODLE?

[Adam Balic]

Actually, all it proves is that the the people in China at the time had noodles. Nothing more nothing more nothing less. But I think that this was already know from other sources. The important part of the article is the identification of the starch source used - several types of millet.

It is quite possible to people to develop similar technologies independently and having to pin down a particular culture as the 'origin' in such cases is a little pointless.

It will be quite interesting to find out when the Chinese largely replaced these native millet noodles with soft wheat originating in the “Fertile Crescent” (present day Iran). Although I am aware of a number of different grains (and other starch/protein sources) that are made into noodles, I haven't heard of millet noodles. I know that several millet types are grown in the region, but I imagine that these various millets are a pain in the arse to mill in comparison to wheat, and the starch/gluten contents will be different. Does anybody know if any of the present day Chinese peoples make millet noodles and are these an everyday thing of a special occasion dish? The latter would be particularly interesting.

[mudbug]

...the first written account of noodles is from the East Han Dynasty between 25 and 220 CE.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noodle

I assume the etymology is easily confirmed via the Oxford English Dictionary (http://www.oed.com/).