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bleudauvergne

The Terrine Topic

457 posts in this topic

Duck Pate, dried cranberries, sunflower seeds, smoked duck confee.

Nice and smooth, would be nice if I had foie laying around to add to the emulsion but had to do with just egg whites and cream.

duckpate.jpg

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Just made up a country terrine with pork fillet insert and pistachio. Terrine lined with prosciutto.

Cooked sous vide.

Learnt that you shouldn't pull a large vacuum while trying to seal a terrine as the filling oozes out (thank heaven for stop buttons).

The rest of the forcemeat went into some rather delicious sausages.

terrine.jpg


Nick Reynolds, aka "nickrey"

"My doctor told me to stop having intimate dinners for four.
Unless there are three other people." Orson Welles
My eG Foodblog

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Im new to this thread. What a lot Ive been mmissing! and that 'press' above is to die for. i used to make terrines all the time. when cooler weather arrives im back in the game.

I have the pate + book mentioned above and also the Time-Life book The Good Cook Terrines, Pates, & Galantines

It might still be in your library. One forgets these days how good the several Time-Life cooking series books were and still are!

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Just made up a country terrine with pork fillet insert and pistachio. Terrine lined with prosciutto.

Cooked sous vide.

Learnt that you shouldn't pull a large vacuum while trying to seal a terrine as the filling oozes out (thank heaven for stop buttons).

The rest of the forcemeat went into some rather delicious sausages.

terrine.jpg

This looks nice. How did you cook it SV? Did you vacuum pack the whole terrine pan after filling it with the forcemeat? At what temp and for how long?


E. Nassar
Houston, TX

My Blog
contact: enassar(AT)gmail(DOT)com

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Just made up a country terrine with pork fillet insert and pistachio. Terrine lined with prosciutto.

Cooked sous vide.

Learnt that you shouldn't pull a large vacuum while trying to seal a terrine as the filling oozes out (thank heaven for stop buttons).

The rest of the forcemeat went into some rather delicious sausages.

terrine.jpg

This looks nice. How did you cook it SV? Did you vacuum pack the whole terrine pan after filling it with the forcemeat? At what temp and for how long?

The whole terrine including pan was sealed. When the chamber sealer caused a filling overflow, I sealed it with my Foodsaver.

Cooked it for 2 hours at 63C totally immersed. Then decreased water level to below the sides of the terrine and cooked still at 63C but more Bain Marie style and checked core temperature with my thermoworks thermometer. I finished cooking when core was 60C.


Edited by nickrey (log)

Nick Reynolds, aka "nickrey"

"My doctor told me to stop having intimate dinners for four.
Unless there are three other people." Orson Welles
My eG Foodblog

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Cooked it for 2 hours at 63C totally immersed. Then decreased water level to below the sides of the terrine and cooked still at 63C but more Bain Marie style and checked core temperature with my thermoworks thermometer. I finished cooking when core was 60C.

The pâté looks good, but sous vide, like explosives, profanity, cologne and truffle oil should be used sparingly and extremely judiciously, though those limits can be subjective. However, objectively, 60C/140F (medium doneness in the US, just above saignant for the French) is far too low of an internal temperature for a cooked pâté and keeping a forcemeat at that low of a temperature can be dangerous. Pâtés and virtually all cooked charcuterie needs to be cooked to an internal temperature of 70C-78C/158F-172F. If the pâté is soft and spreadable, it is because it is undercooked. 60C/140F is on the cusp of the temperature needed to kill harmful bacteria. A singular beef muscle cooked to 57C/135F is fine (the paranoid fantasies of the health department might dictate otherwise) because -with proper handling- there is virtually no chance of there being any bacteria inside. Forcemeats on the other hand and ground up, containing hundreds if not thousands of pieces of meat that are exposed to more surfaces, hands, air and whatever with infinitely more surface area. Initially, the European Union wasn’t too jazzed about transglutaminase because of the risks that come with gluing various pieces of meat together and cooking them at a temperature that does not kill bacteria. Now if the Europeans (ground zero for charcuterie, raw milk and unpasteurized cheese) have concerns that relate to food, then it is probably a big deal.

If you are going to eat the pâté in 1 sitting, no problem. However, if there are eggs in it and you are going to store it for a while or take it in and out of the bag over the course of a few days, you run the risk of the pâté falling apart, developing off flavors and at the very worst, making someone sick and that certainly isn’t worth shaving off 10 degrees, even during the Olympic games.

I cook hams sous-vide (it helps keep the shape in lieu of elusive molds & presses), spalla-cotto, bacon (to 140F for firmness to avoid having to freeze it for slicing) occasionally cotechino and leftover pâté forcemeat in casings (all in 72C water until and internal temp of 70-71C), but placing the entire pâté along with the terrine sous-vide strikes me as an excessive and unnecessary use of resources. I use the vacuum machine to pack the forcemeat but after that, terrines in a bain-marie in a 150C/300F oven uncovered, no convection for 2 hours until internal temp of 71C/160C works just fine, as it has for the past 2 centuries. Uncovered allows the top to caramelize a bit which adds sweetness and evaporation concentrates the flavors (more-so with the convection, though it has a tendency to break the caul-fat). Roasted prosciutto tastes better than boiled prosciutto. After cooking the expelled juices are tossed and a flavorful, hot broth is poured back over for the pâté to absorb. By cooking the pâtés at such a low temperature you also run the risk of the forcemeat breaking.

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However, objectively, 60C/140F (medium doneness in the US, just above saignant for the French) is far too low of an internal temperature for a cooked pâté and keeping a forcemeat at that low of a temperature can be dangerous. Pâtés and virtually all cooked charcuterie needs to be cooked to an internal temperature of 70C-78C/158F-172F. 60C/140F is on the cusp of the temperature needed to kill harmful bacteria. A singular beef muscle cooked to 57C/135F is fine (the paranoid fantasies of the health department might dictate otherwise) because -with proper handling- there is virtually no chance of there being any bacteria inside. Forcemeats on the other hand and ground up, containing hundreds if not thousands of pieces of meat that are exposed to more surfaces, hands, air and whatever with infinitely more surface area. Initially, the European Union wasn’t too jazzed about transglutaminase because of the risks that come with gluing various pieces of meat together and cooking them at a temperature that does not kill bacteria. Now if the Europeans (ground zero for charcuterie, raw milk and unpasteurized cheese) have concerns that relate to food, then it is probably a big deal.

This is objectively incorrect. Beef/Pork held to 60C for 30 minutes are pasteurized to a level deemed safe. Cooking Issues recommends cooking pork based forcemeats to 60C.


PS: I am a guy.

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Quelle horreur! Someone has used a different technique that that mandated by tradition.

Let me address each of your points in turn.

The cooking temperature I used was one recommended for pork and the cooking time was appropriate to pasteurise the meat, as commented already by Shalmanese.

The forcemeat surrounding the pork fillet in the middle was at 60C for over half an hour. I finished cooking when the centre of the pork fillet reached 60C, not when the forcemeat did so.

Cooking science has moved well beyond blasting everything to 70C-78C. I'm not unfamiliar with the rationale and literature in this area and am confident that with the process used the meat was pasteurised.

I can't see how putting the terrine in a temperature controlled water bath is an excessive and unnecessary use of resources. I bring the water to temperature before filling the cooking pot and the circulator only heats to maintain this temperature. My bet is I probably use around 1/10th of the electricity/gas energy that a conventional oven would use. The terrine tossed absolutely minimal juice, and this was dealt with conventionally by weighting and refrigerating the terrine.

The pâté is extremely well formed and cuts beautifully. If it were undercooked as you say, it would have the problems that you mentioned. It doesn't.


Nick Reynolds, aka "nickrey"

"My doctor told me to stop having intimate dinners for four.
Unless there are three other people." Orson Welles
My eG Foodblog

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I agree with Shal.. 130.1 for long enough (true temp) will pasteurization anything, based on thickness. I use 'beer coolers' with an insulated top and it uses almost no energy once temp is reached and I always do as many bags as I can and rapid chill and freeze. This saves time in the future and energy ( a little anyway )

Im curious why you did the bain m. part at all? what was your goal?

I do agree that texture would be a key for temp. selection for pate. Want a soft one? lower temp. Firm? higher temp. I also cant recall ever having a 'rare' meat pate, whole meat pieces or ground fine. Maybe this is an area that SV would excel in as in the past this was not possible to do safely.

I plan to do some of this soon and you've given me great ideas on how to do it SV. Ill start with cylinders, move on to small pans etc

Im thinking those small 'disposable' aluminum pans (reused of course!) will have a place here. Ill just line them with parchment paper.

many thanks for both your experiments and this thread!


Edited by rotuts (log)

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As people who have read my posts would know, I don't use sous vide cooking as a matter of course. I used sous vide as I was reading a number of terrine recipes and all basically said to cook the terrine au bain marie to ensure that it cooked evenly. In essence, this is cooking in a water bath in the oven so I reasoned why not cook the whole thing in a full temperature controlled environment, ie. sous vide.

The bain marie part was forced on me as the Food Saver bag leaked. If this didn't happen, I would have continued sous vide and added a safety margin on in terms of time. As I had access to measure temperatures directly, I was able to work more tightly in terms of tolerances. To be on the safe side with sous vide, I'd probably cook for 3 1/2 hours at 63.5C to make sure that it was cooked through and pasteurised.

If you don't know what you are doing, I'd totally support Baron d'Apcher's caution and put a temperature safety margin on. Also, I wouldn't use the temperatures that I did if I were cooking commercially in the US as they don't fit in with FDA guidelines.


Nick Reynolds, aka "nickrey"

"My doctor told me to stop having intimate dinners for four.
Unless there are three other people." Orson Welles
My eG Foodblog

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PedroG somewhere in the SV thread has a nifty jpg you can print out, cut out, and save as a pasteurization guide by thickness and temp.

pasteurization by temp thickness and time has been worked out.

again thanks for these tips for terrines. Id guess SV is ideal for those T's that don't have a crust nor need browning on the exterior.

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Quelle horreur! Someone has used a different technique that that mandated by tradition.

Indeed. That's a nice-looking terrine.

In fact, pates and terrines are as traditional a use of sous vide as there is. The technique was originally developed for cooking foie pate by Chef Georges Pralus at Troisgros in the mid-1960s. Cooking terrines and the like remains one of its most useful applications.

Baron Shapiro, your minimum temperatures are correct if one only takes the terrine to that temperature mometarily. But the temperatures Nick used are safe when the length of time the product is held at that internal temperature is factored in.


Hong Kong Dave

O que nao mata engorda.

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I agree with Shal.. 130.1 for long enough (true temp) will pasteurization anything, based on thickness. I use 'beer coolers' with an insulated top and it uses almost no energy once temp is reached and I always do as many bags as I can and rapid chill and freeze. This saves time in the future and energy ( a little anyway )

For a thick enough product, holding at 130.1 might allow the core temp to come up too slowly, causing bacterial spoilage before pasteurization. While there would be no more live pathogens, there would be enough byproducts that the product would be unpleasant or even unsafe to eat. You still need to have a rigorous understanding of microbiology to safely SV or to follow well tested guidelines.


PS: I am a guy.

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Personally I think SV is greatly overused these days. There is something to be said about the skill involved in doing a pate the classical way. Plus all tge safety issues that have ben raised in this thread as well

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It's a way of cooking that has its uses, nothing more, nothing less. If it's better than the traditional way or produces a result that I like more, I'll use it; if not, I won't.

Sticking steadfastly to tradition has never been something I've particularly understood nor desired to do in my cooking or elsewhere. As you say, it is a personal preference.


Nick Reynolds, aka "nickrey"

"My doctor told me to stop having intimate dinners for four.
Unless there are three other people." Orson Welles
My eG Foodblog

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Chicken galantine. Amish chicken bathed in Madeira and brandy. A garnish of the breasts, Jamón Ibérico, confit gizzards, fatback and green peppercorns. Wrapped in its skin, then in cheesecloth. Gently poached, traditionally, in court-bouillion. Lemon zest and dhania coriander seasoning.

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Gin-soaked currant and toasted Marcona almond pâté. Some heart, corned tongue, smoked deckle and thyme all up in there. Currants and slivered almonds along the top.

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Those are works of art Baron.


Nick Reynolds, aka "nickrey"

"My doctor told me to stop having intimate dinners for four.
Unless there are three other people." Orson Welles
My eG Foodblog

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Sour Cherry and Randall-Lineback Pâté en Croûte beats Harvard and Yale: Special Ivy League Edition.

Pork, Randall-Lineback rose veal, corned tongue, confit heart, Sicilian pistachios, green peppercorns and such.

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aefd9451-e8f4-6003.jpg

Lake supeior whitefish with lemon parsley and caper. It got knocked off the heart during service while out was poaching I think that made it a, little grainy. Could have used more salt also, first fish mousseline though


Edited by boondocker (log)

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Pigeon, Gin-Soaked Currant and Toasted Almond Pâté en Croûte: Special Longshot Dark-Meat Horse Edition. Submission to qualify for the 2012 World Pâté Croûte Championship in Tain l’Hermitage, France.

No dove, no love

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Pastry feathers and almonds; juniper berries and culeb peppercorns as currants.

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Pigeon breast, liver farce à gratin, gizzards, almonds, currants, fatback, whathaveyou.

7984424279_5bf334eb56_c.jpg

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I second Janeer's comment. I follow your posts on this thread with amazement and respect. Bon chance!

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