Turned Vegetables -- why bother?

[Busboy]

About the time my hands started cramping and I sliced open my thumb, I began asking, why bother to turn (tourner) these stupid root vegetables? Why not slice, dice, cube, mash or do something that doesn't take even experienced cooks hours to do? I remember prep when I worked in a formal French place, all work coming to a halt while virtually the entire kitchen staff turned vegetables for dinner service.

Sure, they look nice on a plate if, to the modern eye, a little contrived. That's why I do it, and because it's a good excuse to hang out in the kitchen and drink wine and listen to the Grateful Dead. But there's a lot of waste, and it's slow. Are there practical advantages that make up for this?

And, why seven sides? Not having been properly trained, I tend to hack out little batons that I then whittle into shape. Eight sides works well, and you don't have to count as you go along. Why not six? Why not nine? Is this something Escoffier wrote down, perhaps when hungover, thus locking generations of dishwahers, commis, and cooking school students into seven-sided-servitude? Inquiring minds want to know.

[Jake]

They roll around the pan easier???

Seriously, I don't do that at home often either, unless I feel like hanging around the kitchen (it's a great excuse to get out of vacuuming) or for a special occasion.

edited for crappy typing

Edited March 15, 2005 by Jake (log)

[Fat Guy]

For the most part, there's no practical reason to make food look nice. As a factual matter, the compounds in food that account for its flavor (taste and aroma) will be identical whether the food looks beautiful or looks like crap. Haute cuisine is greatly concerned with appearance, however, because it rises above flavor and entertains a host of additional concerns, with appearance being chief among them.

Turning vegetables in general does have a purpose: it aids in even cooking. It's a real pleasure to saute a well-turned carrot or potato, because you can create a great looking exterior that is almost totally uniform. The classic seven-sided football-shaped turned vegetable, however, has no practical advantage over a number of other possible arrangements. It just happens to look nicer, not least because the lack of symmetry and good technique combine to make the seven-sided vegetable look more rounded than an eight- or six-sided cut would.

[Carolyn Tillie]

SEVEN -- The perfect number...

- The seven dwarfs

- The seven orders of architecture

- The Arabs have Seven Holy Temples

- In Persian mysteries there were seven spacious caverns through which the aspirants had to pass.

- The Pythagoreans called it the perfect number, 3 and 4, the triangle and the square, the perfect figures.

- In almost every system of antiquity there are frequent references to the number seven.

- Seven liberal arts and sciences

- Seven tassles on a Masonic apron

- The Goths had seven deities, as did the Romans, from whose names are derived our days of the week.

- The Greeks called the "seven" the rational diagonal

- Babylonian mythology: When Inanna the Queen of Heaven (the major love, fertility, and war goddess of the Sumerians) descended into Hell, she was forced to pass through seven gates, at each of which she was required to remove one of her garments, until she stood before her sister Erishkigal the Queen of the Underworld, naked and defenseless. She was then struck dead by seven plagues. Later, upon her return from Hell, she passed though the same seven gates, at each of which she resumed one of her garments.

- The Seven Sisters is a term used to indicate the constellation of the Pleiades -- but The Seven Sisters of New Orleans were a family of hoodoo women who lived and practiced in the Crescent City in the 1920s - 30s.

- In Chinese culture, the number 7 also features rather prominently in some aspects of life. For example, the seventh day of the first moon of the lunar year is known as Human's Day.

- I came across a reference (in Encyclopedia Britannica, actually) to the "Shichi-fuku-jin," or the Seven Gods of Luck in Japanese folklore. They're described as comical deities often depicted riding on a treasure ship with various magical implements, such as a hat of invisibility, rolls of brocade, an inexhaustible purse, keys to the divine treasure-house, cloves, scrolls or books, a lucky rain hat, or a robe of feathers.

And, from Muddy Waters:

"On the seventh hour

of the seventh day

of the seventh month

the seven doctors say

"He were born for good luck

that you'll see"

I got seven hundred dollars

don't you mess with me

'cause i'm the hootchie cootchie man..."

I guess Escoffier was just superstitious, but any of the above reasons seems good enough to me to turn a vegetable seven times!

[gus_tatory]

SEVEN -- The perfect number...

- The seven dwarfs

- The seven orders of architecture

...

- The Greeks called the "seven" the rational diagonal

- Babylonian mythology...

I guess Escoffier was just superstitious, but any of the above reasons seems good enough to me to turn a vegetable seven times!

←

in addition to this fascinating post from Carolyn Tillie, seven is also the number of times sushi chefs squeeze and shape the onigiri (rice ball) for nigiri sushi, so that all the rice grains are lined up in the same direction.

[FaustianBargain]

I used to hate turning vegetables. I didnt think they had any place in the real world. Until I was given potatoes to turn at this one place I went to work. The next day, I picked up a bag of baby potatoes and carrots to practice. It seemed worthwhile once I knew that it was no useless knife skill.

The only thing better than turning potatoes is turning mushrooms.

[phifly04]

The most practical use for this item is to "turn" a profit j/k.It actually is an acquired knife skill that done right makes a nice plated dish that much moe nicer and IMO impressive

[Ptipois]

And, why seven sides?  Not having been properly trained, I tend to hack out little batons that I then whittle into shape.  Eight sides works well, and you don't have to count as you go along.  Why not six?  Why not nine?

←

Why seven and not eight: I think it is an example of Escoffier/haute cuisine feng shui whose exact reasons remain unknown to me.

I do agree with you, and find myself against the general opinion: every time I see some turned vegetables on a plate (turnips seem to look the most miserable of all), I am instantly filled with a heavy dose of sad, sleepy boredom. They don't even look nice to me. They look regularized.

[Fat Guy]

every time I see some turned vegetables on a plate (turnips seem to look the most miserable of all), I am instantly filled with a heavy dose of sad, sleepy boredom.

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I'm just wondering, how often does this happen to you? My experience over the past decade is that I've very rarely seen turned vegetables on a plate in a restaurant, and never in anybody's home. The only restaurant where I distinctly remember seeing turned vegetables -- as in the traditional seven-sided football shape -- any time in the past few years is Alain Ducasse New York.

[Busboy]

I think we all kind of knew Muddy Waters had something to do with this.

I feel certain that I eat out -- particularly at the 4-star level (oops: 3-star!) -- less often than FG, but I seem to stumble across turned vegetables every now and then. Given that so many restaurants, even at the top tier, use less structured presentations these days, I think turned vegetables might look a little forced or inorganic with a lot of plates.

That being said, when I see them I get something of a warm feeling: Here's a kitchen that sweats the details. And I've developed a fondness for root vegetables that have been turned and glazed, a la Bouchon; turnips and rutabegas have never looked so good on a plate.

Of course, any real chef that saw what I tolerate when turning, in terms of irregularities and size, would drive me out of his kitchen with a cleaver. Ca m'est egal, my wife likes them fine.

[chefzadi]

I guess Escoffier was just superstitious, but any of the above reasons seems good enough to me to turn a vegetable seven times!

Why seven and not eight: I think it is an example of Escoffier/haute cuisine feng shui whose exact reasons remain unknown to me.

Not superstition or Feng Shui. When you quarter a round potato to start the tourne there are three edges that have to smoothed, rounded out. Four more turns and you a have a symmetrical vegetable. I'll do a little step by step photo tutuorial within a week.

When I teach it at school it's always a favorite with students. The first knife skill that's like sculpting. They get a kick out of it.

The tourne is a way to give common vegetables a little more visual appeal.

I do agree with you, and find myself against the general opinion: every time I see some turned vegetables on a plate (turnips seem to look the most miserable of all), I am instantly filled with a heavy dose of sad, sleepy boredom. They don't even look nice to me. They look regularized.

Most customers like them. They get a kick out of it, especially in the States. Although I don't recall a dining room full of dozing customers in France either.

The only restaurant where I distinctly remember seeing turned vegetables -- as in the traditional seven-sided football shape -- any time in the past few years is Alain Ducasse New York.

And I've developed a fondness for root vegetables that have been turned and glazed, a la Bouchon; turnips and rutabegas have never looked so good on a plate.

I never gave up on the tourne (No it's the only cut or even the most common cut that I do). Sounds like I'm in good company.

Ca m'est egal, my wife likes them fine.

Well if Mr Busboy is tourneing I know I'm in stellar company.

[Busboy]

I guess Escoffier was just superstitious, but any of the above reasons seems good enough to me to turn a vegetable seven times!

Why seven and not eight: I think it is an example of Escoffier/haute cuisine feng shui whose exact reasons remain unknown to me.

Not superstition or Feng Shui. When you quarter a round potato to start the tourne there are three edges that have to smoothed, rounded out. Four more turns and you a have a symmetrical vegetable. I'll do a little step by step photo tutuorial within a week.

When I teach it at school it's always a favorite with students. The first knife skill that's like sculpting. They get a kick out of it.

The tourne is a way to give common vegetables a little more visual appeal.

I do agree with you, and find myself against the general opinion: every time I see some turned vegetables on a plate (turnips seem to look the most miserable of all), I am instantly filled with a heavy dose of sad, sleepy boredom. They don't even look nice to me. They look regularized.

Most customers like them. They get a kick out of it, especially in the States. Although I don't recall a dining room full of dozing customers in France either.

The only restaurant where I distinctly remember seeing turned vegetables -- as in the traditional seven-sided football shape -- any time in the past few years is Alain Ducasse New York.

And I've developed a fondness for root vegetables that have been turned and glazed, a la Bouchon; turnips and rutabegas have never looked so good on a plate.

I never gave up on the tourne (No it's the only cut or even the most common cut that I do). Sounds like I'm in good company.

Ca m'est egal, my wife likes them fine.

Well if Mr Busboy is tourneing I know I'm in stellar company.

←

I'll be looking forward to the tutorial, in hopes of making my vegetables look like the ones in the cookbooks.

[Bux]

I'd add, or sum up, a few things. Those looking for a practical reason will easily find one or more rationales. I'd hazard a guess it became a standard simply because it made the food look more as if it was prepared by a professional. To the chef it offered pride of accomplishment and to the diner it offered the sense that those in the kitchen had mastered the techniques. The thing about these standards is that they take on a self propagating role. They're taught by the chefs who have come to expect this as a given in a professional kitchen and who can turn a carrot or mushroom in their sleep. In turn they demand this of a cuisinier if he wants to work in the kitchen. Turned vegetables just become a accepted and expected convention.

Why seven sides? I suspect it just appeared to be a good number. It avoided the appearance of symetry which may have been seen as too difficult to perfect, or maybe symetry seemed too mechanical. It may just have been a comfortable number for Escoffier. The thing about standards is that once set, they're hard to overturn until they're seen as unsupportably old fashioned.

Edit: Apparently I cross posted with Chefzadi who said "Not superstition or Feng Shui. When you quarter a round potato to start the tourne there are three edges that have to smoothed, rounded out. Four more turns and you a have a symmetrical vegetable." I knew I should have left that part for a professional.

Anyone who's observed people over as long a period as I have, comes to eventually understand our fickle nature. We take the turned vegetables for granted until someone says "why bother," and another says "I am instantly filled with a heavy dose of sad, sleepy boredom. They don't even look nice to me. They look regularized." There are always chefs with new ideas and everynow and then they meet up with those who question the old standards and the new ideas start appearing with greater regularity. In time, they may become a standard.

Among the alternatives to turned vegetables, I see baby vegetables. Those tiny carrots and turnips with a bit of edible stalk attached are not suitable to turning. They are an esthetic joy in their natural form and well suited to modern garnishes, or perhaps modern garnishes are dependent on the arrival of those tiny vegetables on the market. Creative competition for the turned vegetable comes with vegetable ribbons and "spaghetti." Juliennes were always an alternative as well dice and purees. Some will still see beauty in the turned turnip while others will find ennui. Adrià will simple make them disappear into thin "air."

Edited March 15, 2005 by Bux (log)

[chefzadi]

I'll be looking forward to the tutorial, in hopes of making my vegetables look like the ones in the cookbooks.

Ptipois can look at it whenever he (or she? ) has trouble sleeping. I'll place a cup of chamomile tea and a teddy bear next to the turned vegetables.

[chefzadi]

Among the alternatives to turned vegetables, I see baby vegetables. Those tiny carrots and turnips with a bit of edible stalk attached are not suitable to turning. They are an esthetic joy in their natural form and well suited to modern garnishes, or perhaps modern garnishes are dependent on the arrival of those tiny vegetables on the market. Creative competition for the turned vegetable comes with vegetable ribbons and "spaghetti." Juliennes were always an alternative as well dice and purees. Some will still see beauty in the turned turnip while others will find ennu

You certainly know you're vegetable garnishes. Turning is more fall/winter, root vegetables. We use horse carrots for turning. It's a shape well suited to big pot blanching. It tenderizes the meaner vegetables, gives them a bit of freshness. Whereas roasting intensifies the flavors, brings out the sugars for a more rustic flavor. Turned vegetables are a nice alternative in this sense. So there are practical and flavor considerations as well. Turning also goes along with the French chef's devotion to cooking things seperately, each to the desired doneness. There's no reason to use this technique with tender young carrots and zuchini for instance. The quality of vegetables, the season inform the presentation.

Also uniformity of shape/size ensure even cooking. If a potato were just sliced up and blanched, it would not cook evenly. Turning is not so much an affectation, it's a great way to serve boiled vegetables. It's a really simple thing.

[Fat Guy]

There's a distinction that has been made upthread that I think is worth emphasizing:

Yes, turning vegetables helps them cook uniformly and better in some applications.

No, a seven-sided vegetable does not cook any better than a six- or eight-sided one, or than any of a variety of other shapes.

So while there is a practical reason to turn some vegetables in general sometimes, there is no practical reason to do it with seven sides. The seven sides are pure aesthetics.

[Ptipois]

Ptipois can look at it whenever he (or she?  ) has trouble sleeping. I'll place a cup of chamomile tea and a teddy bear next to the turned vegetables. 

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That's so sweet of you

At least you're not looking at me with a dark disapproving look. (BTW Ptipois = she)

I already wrote that I am aware I'm not in the majority. I'm ready to face the consequences. But turned vegetables really bore me, honest. I think they're so dull.

On the other hand, I love baby vegetables. They're cute. Especially when they're properly cooked.

While staying at Georges Blanc's last year, and having dinner at the restaurant, I was served a small dish of baby vegetables stewed in butter as a side dish. I still remember their beauty, their taste, and the sense of fun and grace expressed by this small dish. Cartoony and tasty at the same time. A sense of fun that's too rarely seen in French haute cuisine.

But turned vegetables? Argh!

I think I should make myself clearer.

First of all, Busboy: "turnips and rutabagas never looked better on a plate". Well, I already said what I thought of turned turnips. But I agree that rutabagas should look good this way, because they need something to make them look better. Any something. So turning seems appropriate in this case, because as a vegetable they do need some sort of treatment. But I don't think other vegetables do as a rule.

Second: Bux wrote "I'd hazard a guess it became a standard simply because it made the food look more as if it was prepared by a professional." I realize that this may be one of the reasons why they bother me. As I wrote, I think they look "regularized", i.e. made professionally acceptable. They have "Hey, I've been turned by a chef and we're not here to fool around" written all over them. Enough said. This is very far away from my idea of cooking, the reason why I'm interested in it.

Most important. To Fat Guy: I live in France. I don't know about French restaurants in America, or outside of France, but I can imagine that the turned vegetables' situation is different in their birthplace. It seems that where I live, most famous, trendy, successful, or just good chefs have given up turned vegetables some time ago. I just don't see them anymore at haute cuisine or medium-haute cuisine restaurants (where vegetables may be given any possible shape except tourné), or at good bistrots. They have become "ringard", if you know what the word means. And it's not difficult to know why. Because the skill seems to have disappeared from good restaurants and found refuge in mass-produced dishes or low-grade catering. Where do you see turned vegetables in France nowadays, and why are they boring? Because, most of the time, they will be found:

- At the buffet de la gare in Romorantin, or Decazeville, or Yvetot, or wherever, adding color to an oversteamed frozen filet of tropical sole (one of the saddest fishes in the world). A drop of canned béarnaise on the side.

- At big brasseries, pretty much in the same circumstances.

- At the corner café serving plats du jour, i.e. tough steak and frozen frites, rubbery fish fillet, etc.

- At chain restaurants, like a certain one specializing in fish. Really nothing to call home about. The turned vegetables will, for instance, try to give moral support to depressed cod fillet and a thimbleful of un-garlicky aioli.

- In ready-made dishes, in the frozen food or refrigerated department.

In all those cases, the turned vegetables may be described thus: one or two potatoes (either falling apart or tough at the core), one or two carrots, one or two pieces of zucchini (invariably soggy and overcooked, oozing salted water when pressed). Sometimes, the vegetables are still soggy from the water they were cooked in. Sometimes, they are all dried up and beginning to curl up (when they have been steamed or boiled, put on the plate and then popped into a hot oven).

If I search my memory, during the last ten years I haven't come across any serving of turned vegetables that was any different from what I just described. I hope this has helped the gentle people here to understand my feeling.

[Ptipois]

Anyone who's observed people over as long a period as I have, comes to eventually understand our fickle nature. We take the turned vegetables for granted until someone says "why bother," and another says "I am instantly filled with a heavy dose of sad, sleepy boredom. They don't even look nice to me. They look regularized." There are always chefs with new ideas and everynow and then they meet up with those who question the old standards and the new ideas start appearing with greater regularity. In time, they may become a standard.

←

Questioning the old standards may lead us to really think over what we've taken for granted for ages. Including me (who doesn't like turned vegetables). Do I really dislike them? Actually, what is wrong with them? The fact that they make a statement (but I can live with this as long as the result is edible, and I can forget all about it if the result is delicious); more importantly, the fact that most of the time I've found them very badly prepared. Soggy and depressing, as I described. However, when it comes to ensuring that some pan-roasted or baked vegetables cook evenly, by all means let's turn them! Roasting in butter or duck fat, with appropriate seasonings, sounds so much better to me. But it has become rather rare in France. In England, I have had roasted parsnips and carrots with sausages, and they were melting, caramelized, delicious. For some reason the British know how to achieve this with root vegetables, the French have given it up at some point (when steamed vegetables became a norm?). This is the perfect opportunity for turning vegetables, and this way, it all makes sense to me.

[chefzadi]

Turning is not so much an affectation, it's a great way to serve boiled vegetables. It's a really simple thing.

I'm quoting myself, 'cause I say alot of quotable things. Leave it to the French to create a shape that intensley bores some and fascinates others for the simplest of preparations.

[FaustianBargain]

Turning vegetables also leads to a lot of wastage. This, I loathe unless the scraps are diligently collected. For the staff meal, perhaps?

[chefzadi]

While staying at Georges Blanc's last year, and having dinner at the restaurant, I was served a small dish of baby vegetables stewed in butter as a side dish. I still remember their beauty, their taste, and the sense of fun and grace expressed by this small dish. Cartoony and tasty at the same time. A sense of fun that's too rarely seen in French haute cuisine.

They just don't have the same flavor here. Unless we luck out and pay an arm and a leg. I lost 20 pounds within 6 months of leaving France and I have never gained it back. I was 185, now I'm 165.

[chefzadi]

In all those cases, the turned vegetables may be described thus: one or two potatoes (either falling apart or tough at the core), one or two carrots, one or two pieces of zucchini (invariably soggy and overcooked, oozing salted water when pressed). Sometimes, the vegetables are still soggy from the water they were cooked in. Sometimes, they are all dried up and beginning to curl up (when they have been steamed or boiled, put on the plate and then popped into a hot oven).

If I search my memory, during the last ten years I haven't come across any serving of turned vegetables that was any different from what I just described. I hope this has helped the gentle people here to understand my feeling.

What?? (&$()#*&(*#^*^*&!!!!!!!

I like to keep it on the menu occassionally for a couple of reasons. It's really easy to cook vegetables properly with this technique, but the pot has to be watched. It's a way of teaching the newbie that even the easiest of things takes care. Also if those places that are fucking up tourne vegetables, safe to guess the rest was pretty bad or just plain awful. At the French haute cuisine level, unlikely that boiled vegetables will be served. This is where we are getting into different trends, which I don't always embrace. Boiled vegetables also go with heartier dishes which are sort enjoying a bit of a renaissance in America (comfort food trend), whereas in France it's still about refinement. Guess those darn chefs can't be everything to everyone all over the world. We can try though for our local customer base.

[chefzadi]

So while there is a practical reason to turn some vegetables in general sometimes, there is no practical reason to do it with seven sides. The seven sides are pure aesthetics.

Not superstition or Feng Shui. When you quarter a round potato to start the tourne there are three edges that have to smoothed, rounded out. Four more turns and you a have a symmetrical vegetable. I'll do a little step by step photo tutuorial within a week.

I'm quoting myself again. It's practical in the sense of crafting the football shape. You'll see what I mean when you see the photos in the tutorial I plan on doing.

[Bux]

Turning vegetables also leads to a lot of wastage. This, I loathe unless the scraps are diligently collected. For the staff meal, perhaps?

←

I've noticed that even during the winter months, a simple vegetable potage is no longer on menus. I remember when my wife would take a melon baller to a large potato and we would sautee the little balls to the delight of company who would always ask where we found such perfect little potatoes and if they were a bitch to peel. The other three fifths of the potato would go into the next day's soup.

[Busboy]

In all those cases, the turned vegetables may be described thus: one or two potatoes (either falling apart or tough at the core), one or two carrots, one or two pieces of zucchini (invariably soggy and overcooked, oozing salted water when pressed). Sometimes, the vegetables are still soggy from the water they were cooked in. Sometimes, they are all dried up and beginning to curl up (when they have been steamed or boiled, put on the plate and then popped into a hot oven).

If I search my memory, during the last ten years I haven't come across any serving of turned vegetables that was any different from what I just described. I hope this has helped the gentle people here to understand my feeling.

What?? (&$()#*&(*#^*^*&!!!!!!!

I like to keep it on the menu occassionally for a couple of reasons. It's really easy to cook vegetables properly with this technique, but the pot has to be watched. It's a way of teaching the newbie that even the easiest of things takes care. Also if those places that are fucking up tourne vegetables, safe to guess the rest was pretty bad or just plain awful. At the French haute cuisine level, unlikely that boiled vegetables will be served. This is where we are getting into different trends, which I don't always embrace. Boiled vegetables also go with heartier dishes which are sort enjoying a bit of a renaissance in America (comfort food trend), whereas in France it's still about refinement. Guess those darn chefs can't be everything to everyone all over the world. We can try though for our local customer base.

←

I do mine in a simple glaze, barely covering them with water and adding butter and a bit of sugar. I did carrots, turnips, the aforementioned rutabegas -- to which I added a pinch of saffron, so they came out brilliantly yellow -- and pearl onions, and cooked them in separate pots with slightly different spicing (pepper in the turnips, vinegar in the onions, etc.) until the liquid evaporated and only the glaze remained. It was, as you can tell, a slow night. I am no chef, but they were a far better dish than that described by P'titepois, no wonder they depress her.

I like roasting root vegetables, too, and mashing them up. But, if you're reduced to eating turnips and rutabegas for dinner, it's good to have a couple of different preparations up your sleeve.

Chefzadi -- you lost 20 lbs because you couldn't get baby vegetables that you liked?

Edited March 15, 2005 by Busboy (log)