Defensive Chefs

[ghostrider]

I took a shot at a restaurant in DC here on eG and got a somewhat heated respnse from one of the cooks.  I was actually unhappy with the service, so I was a little surprised to see that haymaker come out of the kitchen.  No problem, a good tussle is what eG is all about, and I changed my sig so I can no longer be accused of "cowardly anonymous posts."

←

This is probably the wrong place to venture onto this topic, but I don't understand this thing about anonymous posts.

When I complain about a food or a service issue on the spot in a restaurant, I'm doing so anonymously. I don't say, "my name is Joe Blow, and this rice is horrendously salty." Why should I behave any differently because I'm on the Net? I don't get it.

I understand that such a complaint is much less useful after the fact than it is when delivered on the spot, and therefore I don't usually bring it up, unless I see some purpose to it (i.e., a possible health issue). But I think that the business about anonymity is often used as a red herring to divert attention from the real issue.

[canucklehead]

I don't know if I should be posting this - but you should check out Sean Heather's posting to egullet comments (in the Vancouver Forum - look for Irish Heather). Not picking sides - but it was a very interesting interchange.

[touaregsand]

Maybe I'm not reading enough into the situation. But I don't see anything aggressive, intimidating or confrontational in what the chef did. I see it more along the lines of him wanting to explain himself and lacking the social graces to know not to do it. I don't see anything in the description of his behaviour that intended to create an uncomfortable situation, which he clearly did for you. If I were in the same situation I don't think that it would have bothered me much. But that's just me.

I don't know too many restaurants who would comp a dish or offer something else for free unless the dish were technically flawed. Tasting different from the last time or okay but not as good as last time are very different from "there is something wrong with the dish, in it's execution, it's bad."

[SethG]

When I complain about a food or a service issue on the spot in a restaurant, I'm doing so anonymously.  I don't say, "my name is Joe Blow, and this rice is horrendously salty."  Why should I behave any differently because I'm on the Net?  I don't get it.

←

When you complain about food on the spot in the restaurant, you are obviously an actual customer. Anonymous slams on the web, on the other hand, may not be from customers. They may come from disgruntled employees, unscrupulous competitors, or others with some personal grudge against the owner or the chef.

As to the issue Randi asked about on this thread: sounds like the owner and the chef take pride in their new restaurant. I think their response, while a little tone-deaf, came from the best of intentions. They wanted to demonstrate to you that they take pride in their ingredients and their product. They may have come off as too confrontational about it, but I, like you, would give them another chance. Sounds like they aim to please, even if they're a bit too aggressive about it at the moment.

[Tess]

This is probably the wrong place to venture onto this topic, but I don't understand this thing about anonymous posts.

When I complain about a food or a service issue on the spot in a restaurant, I'm doing so anonymously.  I don't say, "my name is Joe Blow, and this rice is horrendously salty."  Why should I behave any differently because I'm on the Net?  I don't get it.

I understand that such a complaint is much less useful after the fact than it is when delivered on the spot, and therefore I don't usually bring it up, unless I see some purpose to it (i.e., a possible health issue).  But I think that the business about anonymity is often used as a red herring to divert attention from the real issue.

←

I agree with you that anonymity or not isn't especially relevant in this case. I know where they get the idea, though. Sites like Amazon have had a lot of problems with people using anonymity to shill or to stack negative reviews against someone. I think usually the anonymous hatchet jobs have a certain obvious tone to them and are often the work of hit-and-split posters using throwaway names. I don't think that applies here at all, but people are understandably touchy about it.

[markk]

In the mid 1990's I dined with a friend at an upscale restaurant in London that had a very high score and glowing review in the Gault-Millau, the Time Out Guide, etc, and was highly praised for its wine list as well as its food. When we got there, we found that it had the briefest of set menus, which was fine. You could choose either a half-dozen chilled oysters or a terrine of foie gras to start, continue with either venison or pheasant, and there were two dessert choices.

So we studied the extensive, several-inch-thick wine list and chose a half-bottle of a very nice Sauternes and decided to start with the foie gras. Many of the reviews had talked about their depth in Bordeaux, and we decided to do a nice half-bottle of red with the venison. But the list was arranged entirely by 'wine characteristic' - i.e. "Youthful, Light Reds", "Medium Bodied Reds", "Hearty Reds", etc, and not by country and region, which I much prefer. So we asked for some help, and when the tuxedo-ed fellow came over, we asked "What red Bordeaux do you have in half bottles?" He replied, "You're holding the wine list, why are you asking me. It's all there!"

Stunned, we said "okay" and after a while, after searching all the red categories, we found a half bottle of 1981 Sociando-Mallet (which was delicious).

But... when the foie gras arrived, the slices were frozen. Our forks "clinked" when they hit the medallions, and would not cut through them. We tapped all around them with the forks, but they were frozen solid. We called the waiter over to complain. He angrily took the plates back to the kitchen, and came out a while later to say, "The kitchen says the foie gras is absolutely fine." We replied that we wouldn't know, it was too cold to take a bite of. He replied, "That's how foie gras is always served."

Starving, and feeling the effects of the Sauternes on our empty stomachs, we held our plates over the candle on the table, and exhaled onto the medallions, trying to bring it to an edible temperature. Finally when we could wait no longer, we ate it.

The venison was nondescript, although the wine was lovely. The service throughout was strangely unfriendly, and my friend and I checked to be sure that we were fully dressed (we were) and not looking out of place (we were not) and as we're both not strangers to fine dining and fine wine, were genuinely puzzled. When the time for dessert came, we declined, wanting to get out of there.

As we were waiting for the check, the chef/owner made her rounds. She greeted a few regulars, and then came to our table to ask how we enjoyed our meal. We told her that it had been rather disappointing all around. She said that she knew that we hadn't liked the foie gras, but added, "You are wrong - I tasted it in the kitchen and it was delicious, as always. It's a specialty here!" We said that we couldn't actually tell that, because it was served frozen-cold. She replied "That's how foie gras is supposed to be served." Rather than get into an argument, we sat silent for a moment. Then, accusing us, she said "If it was too cold for you, why didn't you ask for something else?" My companion replied, "because we had already started on the bottle of Sauternes, and as the only other choice was the oysters, we didn't really think it would go."

And the woman sniped "We would GLADLY have changed the wine for you as well!"

At that point, we both responded "Madame, it doesn't seem like anything in this restaurant is done 'gladly'", and she stormed away.

[Mnehrling]

In the mid 1990's I dined with a friend at an upscale restaurant in London that had a very high score and glowing review in the Gault-Millau, the Time Out Guide, etc, and was highly praised for its wine list as well as its food.  When we got there, we found that it had the briefest of set menus, which was fine.  You could choose either a half-dozen chilled oysters or a terrine of foie gras to start, continue with either venison or pheasant, and there were two dessert choices.

So we studied the extensive, several-inch-thick wine list and chose a half-bottle of a very nice Sauternes and decided to start with the foie gras.  Many of the reviews had talked about their depth in Bordeaux, and we decided to do a nice half-bottle of red with the venison.  But the list was arranged entirely by 'wine characteristic' - i.e. "Youthful, Light Reds", "Medium Bodied Reds", "Hearty Reds", etc, and not by country and region, which I much prefer.  So we asked for some help, and when the tuxedo-ed fellow came over, we asked "What red Bordeaux do you have in half bottles?"  He replied, "You're holding the wine list, why are you asking me.  It's all there!"

Stunned, we said "okay" and after a while, after searching all the red categories, we found a half bottle of 1981 Sociando-Mallet (which was delicious). 

But... when the foie gras arrived, the slices were frozen.  Our forks "clinked" when they hit the medallions, and would not cut through them.  We tapped all around them with the forks, but they were frozen solid.  We called the waiter over to complain.  He angrily took the plates back to the kitchen, and came out a while later to say, "The kitchen says the foie gras is absolutely fine."  We replied that we wouldn't know, it was too cold to take a bite of.  He replied, "That's how foie gras is always served."

Starving, and feeling the effects of the Sauternes on our empty stomachs, we held our plates over the candle on the table, and exhaled onto the medallions, trying to bring it to an edible temperature.  Finally when we could wait no longer, we ate it.

The venison was nondescript, although the wine was lovely.  The service throughout was strangely unfriendly, and my friend and I checked to be sure that we were fully dressed (we were) and not looking out of place (we were not) and as we're both not strangers to fine dining and fine wine, were genuinely puzzled.  When the time for dessert came, we declined, wanting to get out of there.

As we were waiting for the check, the chef/owner made her rounds.  She greeted a few regulars, and then came to our table to ask how we enjoyed our meal.  We told her that it had been rather disappointing all around.  She said that she knew that we hadn't liked the foie gras, but added, "You are wrong - I tasted it in the kitchen and it was delicious, as always.  It's a specialty here!"  We said that we couldn't actually tell that, because it was served frozen-cold.  She replied "That's how foie gras is supposed to be served."  Rather than get into an argument, we sat silent for a moment.  Then, accusing us, she said "If it was too cold for you, why didn't you ask for something else?"  My companion replied, "because we had already started on the bottle of Sauternes, and as the only other choice was the oysters, we didn't really think it would go."

And the woman sniped "We would GLADLY have changed the wine for you as well!"

At that point, we both responded "Madame, it doesn't seem like anything in this restaurant is done 'gladly'", and she stormed away.

←

You win...

This reminds me of my entire trip to Paris last year when my Texas accent gave me away as an American (even though I speak fluent French).. The service (when I got service) was just as rude. It didn't change on the entire trip until I ventured away from Paris, then people were happy to see an American.

[mark918]

so what is the appropriate response? take the complaints and smile away?

isnt feedback normal when a complaint is made?

←

The complaint in this case was basically your crabcakes aren't consistent. That's a management issue. If the owner had brought out the recipe, along with records showing the quantity of each ingredient consumed per day for the last few weeks, that would show that at least they understood that they had two people making the crab cakes in two different ways. The owner showed that she understood the problem by saying - oh, the other chef made the crab cakes the last time you were here. Then demonstrated that she can't communicate effectively with the chef in the kitchen, who interpreted the comment as there was something wrong with the way he made the crab cakes.

I think feedback was given when the owner explained about the two chefs. Whatever happened after that was a little bit off.

And (I know this is silly but) I do have some concerns about what that chef might do to my food if he knows I am there. Do those things really happen? (i.e. spitting in it??)

If he does spit in your food, you should definitely stop going there.

[Busboy]

When I complain about a food or a service issue on the spot in a restaurant, I'm doing so anonymously.  I don't say, "my name is Joe Blow, and this rice is horrendously salty."  Why should I behave any differently because I'm on the Net?  I don't get it.

←

from customers. They may come from disgruntled employees, unscrupulous competitors, or others with some personal grudge against the owner or the chef.

When you complain about food on the spot in the restaurant, you are obviously an actual customer. Anonymous slams on the web, on the other hand, may not be

As to the issue Randi asked about on this thread: sounds like the owner and the chef take pride in their new restaurant. I think their response, while a little tone-deaf, came from the best of intentions. They wanted to demonstrate to you that they take pride in their ingredients and their product. They may have come off as too confrontational about it, but I, like you, would give them another chance. Sounds like they aim to please, even if they're a bit too aggressive about it at the moment.

←

[not to single out SethgG, but to respond to several who have questioned Radi's version of events]

There's a lot of nuance in something like this that is as hard to convey as the writer as it is to apprehend as the reader. Was the chef a large, ruddy man with a whine and a grimace poking at his crabcakes like they were dueling pistols saying with his eyes and his tone of voice: "you are a moron, go away" to a much smaller woman? Or was he a concerned proprietor in a polite tone of voice explaining to a picky customer that he was fairly certain that crabcake construction had been consistent for many months? Did a change in crab sourcing confound both parties? Was there an honest difference of opinion?

Not knowing anything about Randi except that she's from Jersey, thus probably a tough chick not prone to panic even when confronted by men who use knives for a living; that she did not take identify the chef or restaurant in order to take a public shot; and that she asked to compare notes instead of issuing a condemnation; I'd say we should accept her version of events as reasonably accurate until there is reason to believe otherwise.

[FaustianBargain]

I am not sure the dining customers really understand the chaos, tensions and the pressures of the kitchen. The only true reward a chef gets is recognition for his/her food. Trust me, it isnt the money.

First, the consistency. I dont know where the person who got the frozen foie gras ate in London.(dare I ask for the name of the establishment..even if it is by PM?) That is totally unacceptable, but generally, consistency of cooking is not always easy to establish. No matter, what the MG proponents suggest, cooking is NOT a science. To quibble about the taste of a particular dish compared to a previous visit is unreasonable. IMO. Mistakes happen. Ratios slip. Often it cannot be fixed. Consistency is ALWAYS a challenge. The chef doesnt cook every dish from scratch. There are many people involved in the execution of a dish. The person who set up the mise-en-place may not be the person who cooks it or assembles it. The suppliers may not always deliver produce of the same quality. Shit happens, folks. Sometimes, back-to-back-to-back. Unless it is McDonalds, of course. They deserve an award for consistency(truly commendable. very scientific).

My 2c.

[FaustianBargain]

so what is the appropriate response? take the complaints and smile away?

isnt feedback normal when a complaint is made?

←

The complaint in this case was basically your crabcakes aren't consistent. That's a management issue. If the owner had brought out the recipe, along with records showing the quantity of each ingredient consumed per day for the last few weeks, that would show that at least they understood that they had two people making the crab cakes in two different ways.

Huh? Bringing out the recipe with records showing quantity of each ingredient?

Arent we taking ourselves a widdle too seriously?

[Tess]

markk, I had a somewhat similar experience in a London restaurant. I felt it was mainly a matter of miscommunication in our case. Someone in our party said something like, "Is this meat usually so well-done?" It was a matter of the dish not seeming as it was described on the menu, and it was a question, not a complaint. The response seemed to escalate very fast, with three different people coming out to argue with us, saying things like, "No one's complained about this dish before." As soon as we saw how upset this was making them, we tried to say "Never mind, it's not a problem," but it was too late and it was just a bad scene. In my opinion, they were horrified by the idea not just of complaints but even of questions.

[touaregsand]

The complaint in this case was basically your crabcakes aren't consistent. That's a management issue. If the owner had brought out the recipe, along with records showing the quantity of each ingredient consumed per day for the last few weeks, that would show that at least they understood that they had two people making the crab cakes in two different ways.

All of this for crabcakes? (searching for more emoticons)

EDIT: not just for crabcakes...

Edited March 10, 2005 by touaregsand (log)

[Randi]

But then comes out the owner/cook/chef with a plateful of uncooked crab cakes to intimidate you?

←

Dot, you're right - I *did* feel intimidated, even if their intent was pure.

[RETREVR]

A good way to assure yourself poor service is to use this phrase: "Can you direct me to your best, half bottle of wine"

Not saying it is right. Just saying it is true.

Edited March 10, 2005 by RETREVR (log)

[Randi]

As a chef...I understand how the guy in the Kitchen felt....but at the same time....what you said to the waitress and what was said to the chef, may not have been the same thing.  Perhaps the owner told the chef that he had to go out and see you?

The thing to remember here is that what you stated about the crab cakes was your opinion.  You are allowed your opinion.  If something differs in quality and consistency, then the kitchen should be glad to know that.

←

I agree - who knows what was conveyed to the chef. And yes, I would hope they would take my comments as constructive criticism.

[Randi]

I think that coming out with the raw crabcakes was way over the top.  I don't think that it is the chef's place to "defend" his creation to the customer in that way.  It just makes for embarassment on the diner's part.  I would think the owner would be after making the diner more comfortable, not less.

It doesn't sound as if any of the parties behaved poorly purposely.  Still, I don't know if I'd want to go back.

←

This was totally on the money. I agree it was over the top - that's why I was a tad mortified to look up and see the chef there with that plate. And I also agree that the motivations of all involved were pure. Defensive, but pure.

[RETREVR]

The complaint in this case was basically your crabcakes aren't consistent. That's a management issue. If the owner had brought out the recipe, along with records showing the quantity of each ingredient consumed per day for the last few weeks, that would show that at least they understood that they had two people making the crab cakes in two different ways.

All of this for crabcakes? (searching for more emoticons)

EDIT: not just for crabcakes...

←

Records showing quantity of each ingredient consumed.....

If anyone here has never been in a kitchen, it would be a real eye opener for them to spend and evening in a busy kitchen.

All the the owner had to do is smile, assure you that she would check into the matter with the chef give you a bowl of ice cream. End of story.

I am still curious as to if the beverages where the same on each visit. Wine or cocktail selection can make the same dish taste like night and day.

[Randi]

I've managed customer service personnel in my time and it's always a delicate balancing act between preserving the customer relationship and preserving the feelings of the customer service rep. I don't believe "the customer is always right," but I do know telling customers they're wrong is a great way to create bad feelings and kill repeat business.

To me, the fault here lies with the restaurant owner/manager, who didn't handle the situation well.

←

designchick, what a great post. I believe you've really nailed it - because of the owner's inability to see the harm that could be caused by the chef defending his precious crab cakes, this became a no win situation.

Fortunately, I can see that her intentions were good, and I am just using this forum to vent a bit, and get others' perspectives on this. I will go back there, although the friend I was with won't go with me.

Fortunately, he was in town from Boston, so it's not an issue.

[touaregsand]

The complaint in this case was basically your crabcakes aren't consistent. That's a management issue. If the owner had brought out the recipe, along with records showing the quantity of each ingredient consumed per day for the last few weeks, that would show that at least they understood that they had two people making the crab cakes in two different ways.

All of this for crabcakes? (searching for more emoticons)

EDIT: not just for crabcakes...

←

Records showing quantity of each ingredient consumed.....

If anyone here has never been in a kitchen, it would be a real eye opener for them to spend and evening in a busy kitchen.

All the the owner had to do is smile, assure you that she would check into the matter with the chef give you a bowl of ice cream. End of story.

I am still curious as to if the beverages where the same on each visit. Wine or cocktail selection can make the same dish taste like night and day.

←

I've spent my share of time in a busy kitchen. My husband even more.

I just don't read the owner and chef as having malicious intent. Inept at customer service maybe...

[RETREVR]

Ok

I'll flat out ask

What were you drinking the first time you tried the cakes?

What were you drinking the second time you tried the cakes?

[Tess]

I just don't read the owner and chef as having malicious intent. Inept at customer service maybe...

←

I don't think the original poster suggested anything about malicious intent. Didn't she say she understood the hostess was trying to please her but it didn't work out? I think she was pretty careful to spell out that this was her personal reaction.

[Randi]

To be honest with you, I could go the rest of my life without seeing another crab cake.  Everybody is an expert on them.  Everybody has a secret or better recipe.  Especially people from the east coast.  From a chefs perspective, you take an engredient that is extremely expensive, sell it for less than your usual percentage and get to listen to people spout about their dead grandmas recipe form maryland.  You have to use something to hold the crab together.  Some use only mayo.  Then it doesn't tast like crab, so people season it.  Crab cakes suck.  Face it, a fifty cent potato cake is as good if not better than a ten dollar crab cake.

Heres my secret recipe:  FORGET THE CRAB....it is over rated.  Use potatoes, or zuccini, or salmon, or even cod.  This is even better...use rissotto.

On a serious note....What were you drinking each time?

←

RETREVR,

In response, the funny thing about crab cakes - is that they always sound so appealing to me, but the past few years I have always been disappointed. So when I tasted my friend's crab cakes last week and they were *amazing* I was quite excited, and looked forward to ordering them when I returned.

As for what I was drinking - WATER. Yup. The place is a BYOB and we brought nothing.

One factor I have wrestled with (surrre, now she tells us)...is the fact that often when I can only have a taste of something, it seems much more appealing than the plateful of whatever it is I have in front of me. However, in my own defense here - I did have a full half of my friend's crab cake last week, it truly was more than a taste. And it had a distinctive cracked-black-peppery kick to it and loads of crab. Perhaps I got a particularly crabby one (I am sure they vary quite a bit) but the ones I received this week were overly salty and lacking the delicious peppery kick.

And no, my friend did not pepper them before I ate them.

[touaregsand]

I just don't read the owner and chef as having malicious intent. Inept at customer service maybe...

←

I don't think the original poster suggested anything about malicious intent. Didn't she say she understood the hostess was trying to please her but it didn't work out? I think she was pretty careful to spell out that this was her personal reaction.

←

My reading of Randi's original post was that it was fair in the sense that she genuinely made an effort to look at the other's point of view and she contextualized her reaction. I was referring to subsequent posts.

[RETREVR]

To be honest with you, I could go the rest of my life without seeing another crab cake.  Everybody is an expert on them.  Everybody has a secret or better recipe.  Especially people from the east coast.  From a chefs perspective, you take an engredient that is extremely expensive, sell it for less than your usual percentage and get to listen to people spout about their dead grandmas recipe form maryland.  You have to use something to hold the crab together.  Some use only mayo.  Then it doesn't tast like crab, so people season it.  Crab cakes suck.  Face it, a fifty cent potato cake is as good if not better than a ten dollar crab cake.

Heres my secret recipe:  FORGET THE CRAB....it is over rated.  Use potatoes, or zuccini, or salmon, or even cod.  This is even better...use rissotto.

On a serious note....What were you drinking each time?

←

RETREVR,

In response, the funny thing about crab cakes - is that they always sound so appealing to me, but the past few years I have always been disappointed. So when I tasted my friend's crab cakes last week and they were *amazing* I was quite excited, and looked forward to ordering them when I returned.

As for what I was drinking - WATER. Yup. The place is a BYOB and we brought nothing.

One factor I have wrestled with (surrre, now she tells us)...is the fact that often when I can only have a taste of something, it seems much more appealing than the plateful of whatever it is I have in front of me. However, in my own defense here - I did have a full half of my friend's crab cake last week, it truly was more than a taste. And it had a distinctive cracked-black-peppery kick to it and loads of crab. Perhaps I got a particularly crabby one (I am sure they vary quite a bit) but the ones I received this week were overly salty and lacking the delicious peppery kick.

And no, my friend did not pepper them before I ate them.

←

Sounds pretty simple. They used fresh cracked pepper in the first batch, and regular ground pepper in the second. Seen it before.

I have also found that if one thing is "off" on a dish or a meal, it can heighten critical response in the diner. That makes things tricky. For instance, if the potatoe is cold, the diner then looks for something wrong with the steak. I am not saying this was the case, but it does happen. This is the tightrope of the food business. You are only as good as your worst component.

Here is what will make you feel better. Tomorow, get some zuccini and grate it up and make some cakes.

Edited March 10, 2005 by RETREVR (log)