Lamb Curry: Cook-Off 4

[Eden]

Eden,

        The pic doesn’t look inedible to me 

        Looks like you used white onions. What size were they? It may be important to remember, that in India, the size of the onions are normally half those of the "super-sized" onions you typically find in the US. The closest sized onions are the ones you would find in a 2-3 lbs yellow onion bag in the grocery store (each onions is the size of a small clenched fist).

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Yes, it looks perfect. everything went well process-wise it's only when you taste it that you go "Wow, onion!!! "

I actually used 2 "medium" US onions where it called for two large onions finely sliced, and just 1 jumbo onion for the two rough chopped onions that went into the paste, in order to adjust what I had in the house to what was called for.

I really think the recipe must have had a typo/error and meant to call for less. I've never had an indian dish that tasted this one dimensional.

I bought more spices today (since round 1 ran me out of some) and will try to revisit this tomorrow if I have time - Otherwise this weekend...

[fifi]

Hmmm . . . I am suspecting a typo. As we found with onion confit, really strong white onions should cook up really sweet if caramelized. I used some really strong white onions to make the confit once and actually didn't like the excessive sweetness.

[Milagai]

Eden,

        The pic doesn’t look inedible to me 

         Looks like you used white onions. What size were they? It may be important to remember, that in India, the size of the onions are normally half those of the "super-sized" onions you typically find in the US. The closest sized onions are the ones you would find in a 2-3 lbs yellow onion bag in the grocery store (each onions is the size of a small clenched fist).

←

Yes, it looks perfect. everything went well process-wise it's only when you taste it that you go "Wow, onion!!! "

I actually used 2 "medium" US onions where it called for two large onions finely sliced, and just 1 jumbo onion for the two rough chopped onions that went into the paste, in order to adjust what I had in the house to what was called for.

I really think the recipe must have had a typo/error and meant to call for less. I've never had an indian dish that tasted this one dimensional.

I bought more spices today (since round 1 ran me out of some) and will try to revisit this tomorrow if I have time - Otherwise this weekend...

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another possible answer to the onion issue is that you did not

cook them long enough (even though you saw the color change

and they smelled different).

with american varieties of onions (i presume that's where you're located?)

i've discovered over the course of several ruined dishes that they take

very long to cook in order to remove the overtly harsh onionly flavour.

it takes me at least ~ 20 to 25 mins. maybe longer, depending on

the quantity.

milagai

[Smithy]

OK, I have 3 recipes for curried lamb from which to choose and will be choosing tonight. (The lamb is already thawing in the refrigerator.) Tomorrow I go to purchase the fresh spices, since my turmeric and cardamom (to name only a couple) are at least a year old. Here are my questions:

1. If I purchase whole spices and toast them, how will I know they're done toasting?

2. Are there certain spices in the typical curry recipe that won't need toasting and that I should purchase ground? (That probably depends on the recipe I finally pick, but maybe I can get some general rules here.)

3. For those of you who make your own garam masala, I'd like to know your preferred mixes. I tried making it once - can't remember whose recipe - and didn't like it, either by itself or in the final dish. I don't like cloves, in any form that I can detect, and I think that's what wrecked it for me. Is it total heresy to leave cloves out of garam masala?

Nancy

[Chris Amirault]

another possible answer to the onion issue is that you did not

cook them long enough (even though you saw the color change

and they smelled different).

with american varieties of onions (i presume that's where you're located?)

i've discovered over the course of several ruined dishes that they take

very long to cook in order to remove the overtly harsh onionly flavour.

it takes me at least ~ 20 to 25 mins.  maybe longer, depending on

the quantity. 

milagai

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Makes sense to me, too -- given the 45-50 minutes I had to brown my onions above.

[Eden]

another possible answer to the onion issue is that you did not

cook them long enough (even though you saw the color change

and they smelled different).

with american varieties of onions (i presume that's where you're located?)

i've discovered over the course of several ruined dishes that they take

very long to cook in order to remove the overtly harsh onionly flavour.

it takes me at least ~ 20 to 25 mins.  maybe longer, depending on

the quantity. 

milagai

Well I put the pot back on the stove & simmered it for an extra hour or twoo last night, and it did help tame the onion taste to a bearable level. It still overwhelmed the other flavors, but not to an unpleasant level as it had originally.

I still think there was too much onion as well as it being undercooked.

Another factor, I realized belatedly, may be that instead of being a standard yellow onion this was a "sweet onion" that someone had left here after a cooking party, and the "sweet" onions in my experience do not caramelize as well as normal onions. They may be more sweet in the raw state, but do not sweeten in cooking the way they should.

So I will definately revisit this recipe with less onion, yellow onion & WAY more cooking time for the puree: the original called for 3 minutes & I wouldn't do less than 30 after this even with less onion involved.

Thanks for the input all.

[mizducky]

Well, I still wanted to play the lamb curry game, but it was getting late, I was getting hungry, and I felt too tired/lazy/whatever to run out and shop for the remaining ingredients for what I had in mind. So, I used what I had on hand and came up with the following non-standard pressure-cooker lamb-potato curry (alu gosht kari).

Ingredients du jour:

2 lamb shanks, about two pounds total

2 huge russet potatos

several tablespoons canola oil

2 medium onions

6 garlic cloves

1 chunk of gingerroot

1 jalapeno chile

1/2 tablespoon turmeric

1 tablespoon ground cumin

1 14.5oz can whole peeled tomatoes in juice

salt, black pepper, garam masala to taste

Method:

1. Peeled and chopped the onions. Peeled and minced the garlic and ginger. De-seeded and deveined and minced the jalapeno. Put several tablespoons of oil in a non-stick skillet on medium/low heat, added the onions, garlic, ginger, and jalapeno, and let sweat for several minutes, stirring occasionally while I prepared other ingredients.

2. Cut the potatoes into rough dice (didn't peel them because I like to eat them with the peels), and left them submerged in cold water while I moved on.

3. In my big pressure cooker, seared the lamb shanks on all sides in a little more oil. Meanwhile, added the cumin and turmeric to the onion mixture, which tightened it up a lot, and stirred and fried it a bit more.

4. Removed the browned shanks from the cooker, drained the potatoes thoroughly, then put them in the cooker, tossing them with the remaining juices from the lamb.

5. Added the canful of tomatoes and juice to the onion/spice mixture, breaking up the tomatoes and stirring all together well. Then added the onion/spice/tomato mixture to the cooker and stirred all together till well combined.

5. Returned the shanks to the cooker, turning them to coat in the spices and juices, then digging them well into the potatoes. Locked on the lid, brought the cooker up to pressure, and cooked for 45 minutes, with a goal of getting the meat to fall-off-bone tenderness.

6. Dumped steam and unlocked the cooker--fall-off-bone tenderness had been achieved:

7. Removed meat from bones, stirred meat into rest of curry, and dished it up:

Flavor is quite nice (not overly hot in the spice department, but due to GERD I can no longer enjoy the nuclear-heat spiciness I enjoyed in my youth). Texture is probably a little too soft--next time, if I do the shanks and use the cooker, I'll give them a head-start, go a little shorter in the overall cooking time, and use waxy potatoes instead of the easily-disintegrating russets. The curry got a little scorched on the bottom--gotta ramp up the heat more gently on the cooker next time. In summary, for a quickie curry this was quite pleasing.

[Smithy]

For my first attempt at lamb curry, I used Julie Sahni's recipe for Gosht Masala from Indian Regional Classics. I suspect, after rereading this thread to answer some of the questions that came up while I was cooking, that it's a bit generic, or simple, as curries go. (For instance, it calls for cooking oil instead of ghee.) That's all right for this beginner, however; I still learned plenty.

Since my photos aren't anywhere near the caliber of those already posted, I'll just show the before and after.

2 lbs. lamb stew meat, pureed tomato, finely chopped onion, grated ginger, minced garlic, ground cumin, coriander, red pepper, paprika, turmeric.

Question: what kind of red pepper is usually used here? I had some ground up dried hot Egyptian chilies on hand and used a bit of those. Is cayenne the norm?

Let's see...I learned that I really have to turn down the heat. I was using my Le Creuset 6.75 oval French oven over an electric burner set on about 6 - medium high heat. My onion was running out of moisture and threatening to burn at about 15 minutes. I wonder whether that means too much heat or too large a pot? At any rate, I didn't get the caramelization I was expecting, and the sauce is pretty oniony. I used 2 c. of finely chopped yellow onions for 2 lb. lamb stew meat, 1 c. tomato puree, and assorted spices and cooking water.

I also learned, yet again, that time does wonders. The sauce after simmering was bitter (the uncaramelized onions, and perhaps the red pepper I used) at first. I poured the finished product over some leftover pilaf, and the merged beautifully and tasted pretty good. Today I just had another bowlful for lunch - no rice - and the flavors have definitely mellowed, although the onion aftertaste is pretty strong without the rice. Tonight I'm going to reheat the whole thing and cook some small waxy potatoes in it, per Sahni's variation, and garnish with cilantro.

The finished product, poured over pilaf, isn't as elegantly plated as most of you manage, but it tasted good enough for a first attempt:

[Chris Amirault]

Well I put the pot back on the stove & simmered it for an extra hour or twoo last night, and it did help tame the onion taste to a bearable level.  It still overwhelmed the other flavors, but not to an unpleasant level as it had originally.

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Makes sense, I think. The additional simmering time of the entire curry, while it may tame some of the onion, probably doesn't have the same effect as that long sauteeing of the onion by itself. Seems like whatever chemical effect occurs when that onion is just in oil wouldn't be replicated with everything else in there.

Perhaps we need an onion sautee volunteer to play Harold McGee -- though given how long it has taken to get the smell of sauteeing onions out of our back hall, I don't think my family will allow it to be me!

[Chris Amirault]

Let's see...I learned that I really have to turn down the heat.  I was using my Le Creuset 6.75 oval French oven over an electric burner set on about 6 - medium high heat. My onion was running out of moisture and threatening to burn at about 15 minutes.  I wonder whether that means too much heat or too large a pot?   

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Several cook books mentioned this, and said that, if your onion is cooking too quickly, you should not only turn the heat down a bit but add a couple of tablespoons of cold water. I had to do that once or twice.

[fifi]

Am I getting the drift here that the cooking of the onions is a critical part of making a curry? I can see how that might be. I know that the flavor can be radically different depending upon how slow you go and how long you go. It can also differ with the onions you start with. We found that out in the confit thread.

So . . . In a traditional Indian kitchen, lets talk about the details regarding the onions. I am going to assume cooking them in ghee. Are they usually just chopped finely or turned to mush in a food processor? How much caramelization? Oh geez, I wish I had more books on Indian cooking.

[snowangel]

Further to fifi's post, what kind of onions?

[Milagai]

Am I getting the drift here that the cooking of the onions is a critical part of making a curry? I can see how that might be. I know that the flavor can be radically different depending upon how slow you go and how long you go. It can also differ with the onions you start with. We found that out in the confit thread.

So . . . In a traditional Indian kitchen, lets talk about the details regarding the onions. I am going to assume cooking them in ghee. Are they usually just chopped finely or turned to mush in a food processor? How much caramelization? Oh geez, I wish I had more books on Indian cooking.

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speaking from personal experience, onions

are treated differently depending on the dish you

are making (don't get me started here about

how the word "curry" is so bogus to describe all

the different indian dishes).

some dishes that call for the "holy trinity" (onions, ginger

and garlic): these ingredients are food-processored to

mush, and will require long and slow "bhuno"ing (slow

cooking to caramelization in oil or ghee, adding drops

of water as needed.

other dishes call for sliced or coarsely diced onions, and

this treatment does not do the same cell damage that

pureeing / grinding does, so the onions cook in shorter time

without the harsh taste. (e.g. many dals).

some dishes (e.g. sambar) use the small whole red

shallot type onions, and these boil until done - fairly quick.

ghee is not inevitable: veg oil does just fine.

one tends to use ghee in veg food to give it

a richer taste. non-veg dishes you won't be able

to make out the ghee taste anyway, as there's plenty

of animal fat w/o it.

hopefully you have eg's own monica bhide's book

and suvir saran's book.....

milagai

ps: do-piaza means "two onions" or "twice onions"

so expect mucho onion taste in that dish......

but should never be harsh or offputting.

[Smithy]

Miligai, that is a very useful, very helpful exposition. Thank you.

[Chris Amirault]

Not much action here lately, so.... Shall we move on to the next cookoff?

Past suggestions have included paella and pho. Smithy is making the case for a tagine, which I would certainly support.

One thing to consider, based on PMs I've received: let's remember our wrist-tiring rouxing and bhunoing and find something that doesn't require stirring at the stove for 30, 40, 50, or 60 minutes!!

[snowangel]

Yes, let's move on to the next cookoff. I did the lamb thing today. Lamb Korma from Madhur Jaffrey's "An Invitation to Indian Cooking." It was less than successful. It was limp, uninspired and without merit. I followed the directions carefully, except I did not use water, I used lamb stock (from the bone in the leg; I couldn't find shoulder and had a small leg in the freezer).

In fact, this was so uninspired that Diana, Paul and I tasted it before I started the rice. We opted for Chinese take-out (which was above average suburban takeout).

I just put it back on to simmer, sans lid, thinking it will achieve some of the depth of flavor that that Beef Rendang I made (check out the braising with molly thread) had.

So, for the next cookoff. How about tamales? Or fried chicken? Time to hit this side of the globe!

[snowangel]

Another thought for another cookoff would be something that isn't so time consuming. Composed salads?

Edited to add: A salad thing is probably better waiting until the weather is warmer and greens are fresh and local!

Edited March 12, 2005 by snowangel (log)

[Marlene]

Fried chicken! Fried chicken!

[patti]

I will probably try a lamb curry tomorrow, using Madhur Jaffrey's recipe for Rogan Josh. Sorry to be so late with my attempt, but I had a hard time finding the right lamb. If it all goes right, I'll post my results tomorrow evening or Sunday.

[fifi]

I am having a hard time finding lamb as well. I really don't want to buy a whole leg. I am still going to try this.

*jumping up and down*

Fried Chicken! Fried Chicken!

[Smithy]

Gaaahh. I LOVE fried chicken. I HATE the cleanup. I rarely do it here, unless I can do it outside. It's 10*F right now. Can we save the chicken until it's warmer? Or do you experienced folks have ways to tame the grease spatters?

Nancy (but if that's the consensus, count me in)

[snowangel]

Gaaahh.  I LOVE fried chicken.  I HATE the cleanup.  I rarely do it here, unless I can do it outside.  It's 10*F right now.    Can we save the chicken until it's warmer?  Or do you experienced folks have ways to tame the grease spatters? 

Nancy (but if that's the consensus, count me in)

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Two words: splatter screen. And, it would be quicker to clean grease than accumulate all of those ingredients for the curry. Besides, since we can't garden, we just as well clean grease .

[Smithy]

Gaaahh.  I LOVE fried chicken.  I HATE the cleanup.  I rarely do it here, unless I can do it outside.  It's 10*F right now.    Can we save the chicken until it's warmer?  Or do you experienced folks have ways to tame the grease spatters?  

Nancy (but if that's the consensus, count me in)

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Two words: splatter screen. And, it would be quicker to clean grease than accumulate all of those ingredients for the curry. Besides, since we can't garden, we just as well clean grease .

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Sponge in one hand, seed catalog in the other?

[patti]

I am having a hard time finding lamb as well. I really don't want to buy a whole leg. I am still going to try this.

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Fifi, after shopping several stores and phoning a number of butcher shops and finding only lamb chops or pricey legs of lamb, I found two 1 lb. packages of center sliced leg of lamb at Albertson's. The other times I'd checked, I saw no such thing. So, I'm going to give it a go with that. In the meantime, I pan grilled some lamb chops for the first time and they were a pleasant surprise.

Edited March 12, 2005 by patti (log)

[NulloModo]

I still need to do the lamb thing, just so hard to find lamb for a decent price around here...

I nominate Chili for the next cookoff.