Some stock questions

[rascal]

I made a big pot of chicken stock according the the eGCI instructions last weekend, using 2 whole chickens. Took them out after 40 mins, removed the breasts and skin, put the carcasses back in for another couple hours.

Then, I tried to render out the fat from the chicken skin by boiling it with some water. After cooling the result of this overnight, the water phase of was VERY gelled- almost solid. And it seems that the stock itself is not as thick as I would have expected.

Two questions here: Should I have left the skin on for the simmer longer?

And, what is the proper rendering technique for the pile o skin? I came away with only a tiny amount of fat from that render- far more solidified on top of the stock.

[Busboy]

If you leave the skin on during the initial simmering, a good deal of the fat is going to render into your first pot long before you move it to the second pot.

If you want the chicken fat, I'd suggest roasting the chicken before hand to catch the fat (which, to my mind, gives a better, "roastier" flavor), or pulling the skin off before simmering the rest of the chicken. Either way, you get a clearer, cleaner-tasting stock.

The "thickness" of the stock can be increased by coiling it down some, which will also intensify the flavor. Alternately, you can cut the chicken up and crack the bones -- the marrow will thicken the stock -- or, as Thomas Keller does, add chicken feet.

[deltadoc]

If you want the chicken fat, I'd suggest roasting the chicken before hand to catch the fat (which, to my mind, gives a better, "roastier" flavor), or pulling the skin off before simmering the rest of the chicken.  Either way, you get a clearer, cleaner-tasting stock.

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Just curious, but wouldn't roasting the chicken first make it more of a brown stock than a white stock which is what I thought the original poster was making?

It's kind of like in the middle, since most brown stocks you roast the bones, which really aren't being roasted (to browness) when the rest of the chicken is surrounding them.

Again, just curious.

doc

[rascal]

I guess I was just surprised in the amount of gelling action that came out of the skin while I was rendering it. I was under the impression that all of the gelatin came from the bones- not the skin.

I may have to try and source some chicken feet. Unfortunately living in a small town things like that are not so easy to come by.

[dano1]

chix marrow???.....

[wattacetti]

I guess I was just surprised in the amount of gelling action that came out of the skin while I was rendering it.  I was under the impression that all of the gelatin came from the bones- not the skin.

I may have to try and source some chicken feet.  Unfortunately living in a small town things like that are not so easy to come by.

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Um, what did you think skin was made of?

The chicken feet will make you the (temporary) talk of the town.

[Pam R]

I may have to try and source some chicken feet.  Unfortunately living in a small town things like that are not so easy to come by.

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Chicken necks, wings and 'backs' are also good for the soup. All of our chicken crosses provincial lines (from Ontario to Manitoba) and for some reason they won't allow chicken feet into the province. We sell cases of each of these every week for soup. If they aren't available where you buy your chicken, ask your butcher to keep the bones when he's (she?) preppeing boneless chicken breasts (that's the 'back').

I RARELY use an actual whole chicken for chicken stock. Unless you are planning to use the meat for something else, then by all means use it. If you want a clear broth though, I think it's a waste of cash. And of course, if you want to use a whole chicken, it's better to use an old, tough chicken rather than a young, tender chicken. More flavour in the old guys.

[scott123]

I guess I was just surprised in the amount of gelling action that came out of the skin while I was rendering it.  I was under the impression that all of the gelatin came from the bones- not the skin.

I may have to try and source some chicken feet.  Unfortunately living in a small town things like that are not so easy to come by.

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Gel/flavor comes from collagen. Greatest source of collagen: skin. Greatest source of skin: feet. Second best source: wings.

Peeling off/discarding skin when making stock would be akin to eating an orange skin but throwing away the flesh. The foundation, the soul, the very essence of chicken stock lies within the skin.

Edited February 12, 2005 by scott123 (log)

[Pam R]

I guess I was just surprised in the amount of gelling action that came out of the skin while I was rendering it.  I was under the impression that all of the gelatin came from the bones- not the skin.

I may have to try and source some chicken feet.  Unfortunately living in a small town things like that are not so easy to come by.

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Gel/flavor comes from collagen. Greatest source of collagen: skin. Greatest source of skin: feet. Second best source: wings.

Peeling off/discarding skin when making stock would be akin to eating an orange skin but throwing away the flesh. The foundation, the soul, the very essence of chicken stock lies within the skin.

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I'm not disagreeing with you... but you can still make a heck of a stock with bones alone... using necks and bones will give you a pot full of gelatinous goodness.

[dano1]

Peeling off/discarding skin when making stock would be akin to eating an orange skin but throwing away the flesh. The foundation, the soul, the very essence of chicken stock lies within the skin.

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damn, i guess Escoffier was wrong all these years.......

[Busboy]

If you want the chicken fat, I'd suggest roasting the chicken before hand to catch the fat (which, to my mind, gives a better, "roastier" flavor), or pulling the skin off before simmering the rest of the chicken.  Either way, you get a clearer, cleaner-tasting stock.

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Just curious, but wouldn't roasting the chicken first make it more of a brown stock than a white stock which is what I thought the original poster was making?

It's kind of like in the middle, since most brown stocks you roast the bones, which really aren't being roasted (to browness) when the rest of the chicken is surrounding them.

Again, just curious.

doc

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Depends what you like. Sometimes I'm in the mood for a white stock, but generally I prefer to have something a little richer around. I suppose I'm a heathen, but I find white stock a little too subtle for most uses. A stock made with a roasted chicken is still far from a brown stock -- which I think of as a beef stock -- and makes a hell of a sauce or onion soup without overpowering anything.

[Busboy]

I guess I was just surprised in the amount of gelling action that came out of the skin while I was rendering it.  I was under the impression that all of the gelatin came from the bones- not the skin.

I may have to try and source some chicken feet.  Unfortunately living in a small town things like that are not so easy to come by.

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Gel/flavor comes from collagen. Greatest source of collagen: skin. Greatest source of skin: feet. Second best source: wings.

Peeling off/discarding skin when making stock would be akin to eating an orange skin but throwing away the flesh. The foundation, the soul, the very essence of chicken stock lies within the skin.

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Just to be cantankerous, I'd say that you have it backwards. Flavor comes from flesh. If all you want is gell and unctuous texture, you can buy gelatin in a box.

[Really Nice!]

I made a big pot of chicken stock according the the eGCI instructions last weekend, using 2 whole chickens. Took them out after 40 mins, removed the breasts and skin, put the carcasses back in for another couple hours.

Wow, what happened to the century-old idea of making stock from just bones, water, mirepoix, and aromatics? It was good enough for Escoffier, Point, Ducasse, Robuchon, LaVerty, and suddenly we need to throw in a couple of whole chickens?

Peeling off/discarding skin when making stock would be akin to eating an orange skin but throwing away the flesh. The foundation, the soul, the very essence of chicken stock lies within the skin.

Actually, the fat, scum, impurities and cloudiness lies within the skin. No soul or essence there.

Gel/flavor comes from collagen. Greatest source of collagen: skin.

Actually, gelatin is a tasteless, oderless component, all it does is add richness and body. Collagen is a protein found in nearly all connective tissue. It binds together and supports other tissues such as muscles.

Next thing you know we'll be dumping boiling water over some chicken legs and calling it a stock within an hour.

[EdS]

I made a big pot of chicken stock according the the eGCI instructions last weekend, using 2 whole chickens. Took them out after 40 mins, removed the breasts and skin, put the carcasses back in for another couple hours.

Wow, what happened to the century-old idea of making stock from just bones, water, mirepoix, and aromatics? It was good enough for Escoffier, Point, Ducasse, Robuchon, LaVerty, and suddenly we need to throw in a couple of whole chickens?

...

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Stock made with the addition of meat has better flavor but obviously the cost goes up. I've done chicken stock made from from just backs and other bones and then from whole chicken and compared the result. There's no question in my mind that stock made with more meat has more depth of flavor. I think if I were cooking at a restaurant I'd have a lot more bones laying around so in that case I could see making bone stock and then also making a better stock for those uses where I really needed the flavor and not just body. But at home I really don't want to be bothered with this complexity. If my meaty stock is overkill for some applications and costing me a little extra, I'm ok with that.

I'll usually have at least a few chicken backs in my freezer and on stockmaking day I'll run down to Costco and buy one of those three-packs of whole chicken at $0.89/lb. here. I'll remove some pieces that I'll use over the next few days and then throw everything else like the useless breasts into the stockpot.

[scott123]

I guess I was just surprised in the amount of gelling action that came out of the skin while I was rendering it.  I was under the impression that all of the gelatin came from the bones- not the skin.

I may have to try and source some chicken feet.  Unfortunately living in a small town things like that are not so easy to come by.

←

Gel/flavor comes from collagen. Greatest source of collagen: skin. Greatest source of skin: feet. Second best source: wings.

Peeling off/discarding skin when making stock would be akin to eating an orange skin but throwing away the flesh. The foundation, the soul, the very essence of chicken stock lies within the skin.

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Just to be cantankerous, I'd say that you have it backwards. Flavor comes from flesh. If all you want is gell and unctuous texture, you can buy gelatin in a box.

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It's very simple. Try making stock from a skinless boneless piece of meat and then try making stock from skin. Try it. You'll see where the flavor comes from.

[Pam R]

It's very simple.  Try making stock from a skinless boneless piece of meat and then try making stock from skin.  Try it. You'll see where the flavor comes from.

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And then try making it with just the bones.... because that's where the flavour really comes from

[Busboy]

I guess I was just surprised in the amount of gelling action that came out of the skin while I was rendering it.  I was under the impression that all of the gelatin came from the bones- not the skin.

I may have to try and source some chicken feet.  Unfortunately living in a small town things like that are not so easy to come by.

←

Gel/flavor comes from collagen. Greatest source of collagen: skin. Greatest source of skin: feet. Second best source: wings.

Peeling off/discarding skin when making stock would be akin to eating an orange skin but throwing away the flesh. The foundation, the soul, the very essence of chicken stock lies within the skin.

←

Just to be cantankerous, I'd say that you have it backwards. Flavor comes from flesh. If all you want is gell and unctuous texture, you can buy gelatin in a box.

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It's very simple. Try making stock from a skinless boneless piece of meat and then try making stock from skin. Try it. You'll see where the flavor comes from.

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I confess I haven't done a scientific study, but the most flavorful chicken stocks I've ever made have been made with the carcass of a chicken roasted and eaten for dinner -- not a shred of skin on it.

[chefzadi]

How about combining the threads on stocks?

[scott123]

I guess I was just surprised in the amount of gelling action that came out of the skin while I was rendering it.  I was under the impression that all of the gelatin came from the bones- not the skin.

I may have to try and source some chicken feet.  Unfortunately living in a small town things like that are not so easy to come by.

←

Gel/flavor comes from collagen. Greatest source of collagen: skin. Greatest source of skin: feet. Second best source: wings.

Peeling off/discarding skin when making stock would be akin to eating an orange skin but throwing away the flesh. The foundation, the soul, the very essence of chicken stock lies within the skin.

←

Just to be cantankerous, I'd say that you have it backwards. Flavor comes from flesh. If all you want is gell and unctuous texture, you can buy gelatin in a box.

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It's very simple. Try making stock from a skinless boneless piece of meat and then try making stock from skin. Try it. You'll see where the flavor comes from.

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I confess I haven't done a scientific study, but the most flavorful chicken stocks I've ever made have been made with the carcass of a chicken roasted and eaten for dinner -- not a shred of skin on it.

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Wait a second, first you're talking about how flesh makes the most flavor and now it's bones. Which is it?

[zeitoun]

A useful note from Harold McGee "On Food and Cooking" p.598:

I quote: "Bones and skin are much better sources of gelatin and thickening power than meat. However, they carry only a small fraction of the other soluble molecules that provide flavor. To make sauces (or stocks) with good meat flavor, it's meat that must be extracted, not bones and skin."

So, considering the above, to make a "chicken/meat flavored" stock with a rich texture, using a whole chicken might not be a bad idea after all. But that all depends on what you are using your stock for obviously (soup or sauce base, as a poaching liquid for other meats or vegetables). I personally use bones and meat and no skin.

[scott123]

It's very simple.  Try making stock from a skinless boneless piece of meat and then try making stock from skin.  Try it. You'll see where the flavor comes from.

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And then try making it with just the bones.... because that's where the flavour really comes from

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I, respectfully, disagree. I will concede that bones will provide a greater output of flavor than meat, but both pale in comparison to the stockmaking magic of skin.

I'm curious, just for the sake of argument, which treatment of chicken bones would you consider to result in greater flavored stock, raw bones or roasted?

[Carolyn Tillie]

I'm curious, just for the sake of argument, which treatment of chicken bones would you consider to result in greater flavored stock, raw bones or roasted?

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It depends entirely upon their usage, IMHO. Raw Bones stock would be a better base stock for things like risotto, where I would want OTHER flavors to be brought forward (such as mushrooms or asparagus) but a Roast Bone stock would be preferable in a soup. It doesn't mean that one is better than another, just that there are ultimately going to be different uses depending on how the stock was originally made.

[highchef]

I'm curious, just for the sake of argument, which treatment of chicken bones would you consider to result in greater flavored stock, raw bones or roasted?

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It depends entirely upon their usage, IMHO. Raw Bones stock would be a better base stock for things like risotto, where I would want OTHER flavors to be brought forward (such as mushrooms or asparagus) but a Roast Bone stock would be preferable in a soup. It doesn't mean that one is better than another, just that there are ultimately going to be different uses depending on how the stock was originally made.

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Forgive a stupid question, but where do you get the roasted chicken bones? I mean, are roasted bones from roasted chickens, or are they from a deboned chicken and then roasted with aromatics? If I have 2 chickens and I want a light stock and a darker chicken stock, would I roast one and boil the other? then boil the bones of the roastd chicken and then reduce both? Also curious about the beef stocks. I've read the lesson. I think I'm having logistics problems. thanks

[Pam R]

I, respectfully, disagree. I will concede that bones will provide a greater output of flavor than meat, but both pale in comparison to the stockmaking magic of skin.

I'm curious, just for the sake of argument, which treatment of chicken bones would you consider to result in greater flavored stock, raw bones or roasted?

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When I was testing recipes for my book, I came to a very simple conclusion - taste is subjective. I grew up on traditional Jewish/Deli chicken soup. The very best way to make the soup that I like is to use the bones.

Having said that, in my cookbook, my recipe for chicken soup calls for using whole, mature chickens - older chickens have much more flavour than young chickens. I did add a line or two to the recipe telling people to use bones only - if you replace the same weight of whole chicken with just bones, you will get a stronger tasting broth.

I've tried both ways, and those are my results - but I suggest people do the same testing and see what they like more - my telling you it's better one way really means that that's the way I like it more. You may like it more the other way.

Again, if I'm making stock to eat as a soup, I'm not a fan of roasting. It's a different flavour - not MORE flavourful, just different flavour. I'd roast them if I was making a stock for a sauce, but not for a soup.

(when I make beef stock, I DO roast the bones... )

[chefzadi]

French kitchen- Chicken bones, no skin, no meat, add the neck intact if you want. White chicken stock is not used much in restaurant applications. Brown bones, make stock use for onion soups in homier restaurants. Reduce brown chicken stock to make chicken demi-glace (add some mushrooms perhaps for sauce forestiere), serve with Roast Chicken.

Add skin, feet, meat, wings, beaks, feathers if you like. But the method above is the French version. Of course not the only version.

Enjoy!

P.S. No salt in stocks.