Gumbo: Cook-Off 3

[johnjohn]

I've come across recipes that call for adding the stock to the roux (after you toss in the vegetables to stop the roux from cooking), as well as, bringing the stock to a boil and adding the roux in small amounts to the stock. Does it make a difference which way you do it? If I was to add the stock to the hot roux should my stock be room temp, warm, or boiling?

[Smithy]

I've come across recipes that call for adding the stock to the roux (after you toss in the vegetables to stop the roux from cooking), as well as,  bringing the stock to a boil and adding the roux in small amounts to the stock.  Does it make a difference which way you do it?  If I was to add the stock to the hot roux should my stock be room temp, warm, or boiling?

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According to this post and related answers upthread and down, if you're going to add stock to hot roux it should be cold stock. Hot roux and hot stock together are likely to yield lumps, clumps and globs unless you add the stock in very small amounts.

As to whether the results are different (stock into roux, or roux into stock) I hope one of the experts will answer. I'm a novice.

Edited because I answered the wrong question the first time around.

Edited October 12, 2005 by Smithy (log)

[suzilightning]

rain and cool weather here so... for tomorrow night

chicken and sausage gumbo. no andouille but i had some of emeril's kicked up sausages so i skinned them and chucked them into the pot. when we get home tomorrow just heat up the gumbo, make some rice and chop up some green onions.

Edited October 14, 2005 by suzilightning (log)

[fifi]

I've come across recipes that call for adding the stock to the roux (after you toss in the vegetables to stop the roux from cooking), as well as,  bringing the stock to a boil and adding the roux in small amounts to the stock.  Does it make a difference which way you do it?  If I was to add the stock to the hot roux should my stock be room temp, warm, or boiling?

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Sorry to be late weighing in . . . the rule is cool stock into hot roux or vice versa. From a practical standpoint, I am usually doing this in one pot, my big heavy gumbo pot. In that pot, I make the roux, quench it with the trinity to get that special flavor, then start adding the stock. That means that my stock needs to be room temp or so. The stock is usually coming from a container from the fridge or freezer where it has been waiting to be a part of the gumbo. To make roux in a separate pan and add it to a pot seems like a lot of extra messing about and more dishes to wash. Plus . . . in that separate pan for the roux, would you have room to sear the trinity in the hot roux? That makes a real difference. I just don't see the practicality, or flavor development, of adding cool roux to bubbling stock. I mean . . . what's the point? Anyone that writes a recipe and says to do that just doesn't get it. Or, maybe they are using roux from a jar. (Actually, roux in a jar isn't bad at all. You still have to heat it to sear the trinity, though.)

[Kim D]

I am so glad that we had problems with our gumbo.

We now know that cold stock should be added to hot roux and not hot stock to hot roux.

We made shrimp stock the day before and brought it to room temperature before adding it to the roux. My husband is so used to adding the stock in small amounts that he could not bring himself to add it any faster. At first. He noticed a difference immediately. The room temperature stock incorporated with very little effort.

As he poured and stirred, he kept saying "This is soooo much easier.".

Lesson learned. And we are very grateful.

- kim

[ruthcooks]

Gumbo freezes exceedingly well. I might add though that if you add the rice to the gumbo to freeze when portioning, when you reheat the gumbo, the rice breaks down a bit and you get a very think soup. Not undesireable, and it tastes great just the same, but something to consider.

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When I want to freeze individual servings of soup with rice or pasta, I first freeze the soup without the starch, leaving some room at the top. After the soup is frozen, I add the cooked starch top of the soup and press plastic wrap over it before placing the lid.

Don't any of you watch Emeril? Always add either hot stock to cold roux, or cold stock to hot roux. Fixes it every time. You can do hot/hot, but as stated above, it takes forever, and requires far more energy than I am willing to expend.

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I believe this should read: add either cold roux to hot stock, or cold stock to hot roux. You always add the cold to the hot. The point of the first method is to thicken something which you have been making in a pot on the stove or in the oven (think buerre manie).

During the past couple of years I have noticed several TV cooks, including Sara Moulton, talking about heating their stock to add to hot roux. This is just plain wrong. It changes the texture to grainy.

Edited October 25, 2005 by ruthcooks (log)

[Chris Amirault]

During the past couple of years I have noticed several TV cooks, including Sara Moulton, talking about heating their stock to add to hot roux.  This is just plain wrong.  It changes the texture to grainy.

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Actually, this is not "plain wrong" but a matter of debate. Click here for the discussion in this thread about it, in which Linda (Fifi) and I go back and forth. For the record, adding small amounts of hot stock to a hot roux has never changed the texture of my many, many gumbos to grainy!

I am not alone in this belief: Here's one recipe:

When the roux has progressed to the dark chocolate stage (about forty-five to fifty minutes), add the onions, then the bell pepper and celery, stirring vigorously all the while. You'll want to be heating your stock by now. [snip] After a minute or two more of energetic stirring ... start blending in the hot stock, perhaps a cup at a time. Let each addition of stock be absorbed into the roux before adding more. It will take you several minutes at least to add the stock in this way.

More support here, here, and here.

Edited to add support to my cockamamie hot stock belief -- ca

Edited October 26, 2005 by chrisamirault (log)

[ruthcooks]

I can see where it would be difficult to notice a texture change in gumbo. Mainly, my experience is with stewed chicken gravy when I'm making it from already hot stock, and adding it to hot roux. The texture is much better when adding cold stock to the hot roux.

However, my home ec teacher taught me about "plain wrong" almost 50 years ago. Don't think the science has changed. I've never heard anyone advocate adding hot stock to hot roux until the past few years, much less heating it on purpose. This is not to say I've never added hot stock to hot roux, but I've only done it when it's expedient, as in making gumbo.

(Guess we already know which side of that "discussion" with Fifi you were on.)

Edited October 26, 2005 by ruthcooks (log)

[fifi]

Heh heh . . . I love a good controversy.

Let me say this . . . You can add hot stock to hot roux . . . but why? It is so much more work to get it to blend. I guess I am just too lazy to work that hard. I made that "mistake" with gumbo . . . once. The texture came out the same but it sure took a lot of work to make it look like something other than dog barf.

[Chris Amirault]

Uncle!

[fifi]

*bumpety bump*

I have been processing multiple turkey carcasses into "turkey bone gumbo" which is a lot like my basic teaching recipe here.

I now bring up a mystery that has plagued me for years. Why is it that some batches of gumbo have the oil "break out" and some don't? I just skimmed a double batch that started with 2 cups of oil and 2 cups of flour for the roux. Of course, the sausage has some fat, the turkey about none. But with this last pot, I got back almost the whole two cups of oil. Some batches I get some oil to skim, some just about none. I have no clue what the differences might be.

Anybody have a clue?

[Chris Amirault]

Because you didn't heat your stock?

Running in the opposite direction....

[fifi]

Because you didn't heat your stock?

Running in the opposite direction....

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*emoticon running with cleaver aimed at Chris' head*

Actually, you may have something there. I did add the stock a little warmer than usual (usually cool to room temp) because I had been reducing it a bit in a separate pot on the stove for both the gumbo and tomorrow's turkey and dumplin's. I had taken it out of the reduction pot and put it in one of those big two quart Pyrex measuring cup pitcher things and was letting it cool down on the balconey. It was pretty warm but not hot. I didn't have any problem with it incorporating smoothly. But, about an hour into the simmer, the oil started breaking out. I have no clue whether or not the temperature of the stock has anything to do with it but it might. My technique/temperature of the stock does vary depending upon what I am doing and where the stock has been (fridge, pot).

[Chris Amirault]

Isn't there a gumbo circuit court of appeals to which we can bring this question?

[fifi]

My ultimate Court of Appeals, The Gumbo Goddess, is "stirring the pot" for Saint Peter. And . . . as I said somewhere above, probably in more ways than one.

I will do some hard prayin' and maybe will get a sign. In the meantime, I am thinking we need a McGee on this one. There may be something going on with the dissolution of the starch, acting as a binding agent with the oil, that has something to do with the temperature when the liquid is added and incorporated. I dunno. My knowledge of chemistry is failing me here.

I will say that when more oil stays in, the "sauce" has a more silkey and rich texture, as you might expect. But that is a fine point that not everyone might notice.

[Smithy]

Interesting that this point should come up now. The oil broke out of my last pot of gumbo. It hasn't happened before. I followed Fifi's Gumbo Goddess method. I'd thought the source might be the chicken, but it wasn't especially fatty, and I'd removed the skin.

I'll be watching this topic with interest. Sorry I don't have any insights.

[fifi]

At least it is comforting to know that the phenomenon is not just with me. Just out of curiosity, what was the temperature of your stock when you added it? I am thinking that may have something to do with it, especially since the stock was added into my batch with the oil break-out a lot warmer than I usually do.

[Smithy]

My stock had been thawed in the microwave, and wasn't particularly warm, although there may have been hot spots. I think there may still have been some ice in it. It's hard to remember now; I made this batch a couple of weeks ago.

[Dim Sim]

Hi everyone, it is nice to see the gumbo thread is still going strong.

I am as puzzled as fifi about a film of oil on top, I am thinking parallel to making curry, I have often came across a recipe about frying spices in the beginning of most curry recipes, the recipes often states 'fry till the oil seperate from the spice' and also often in the later stage of curry making, so you end up with a film of oil on top, I have notice this more often when I use coconut milk in the recipe, it seems like there is a stage of simmering, that once you go past it , the whole liquid mess would break down, I wonder if it is the same as gumbo making in that the roux just break its suspension power and release the oil that was lock in. Fifi , I was wondering if your resulting gumbo was thinner , as compare to the pot without a film of oil on top ?

I think it is time to make another batch soon

[fifi]

Dim Sim ...

You are absolutly right. I have had the same thing with currys. I really don't know what the difference is. I will say that with my gumbos that the final result is not any different. When served over white rice as it should be, it is not any different. I do know that when the oil doesn't break out the gumbo is richer. But that is a minor thing.

[snowangel]

Gumbo was on the menu last night. My kids especially love gumbo.

Chicken thighs (boned and skinned, raw), some local andouille sausage that is very garlicy. This sausage is not as smokey as I would like, so I used 1/2 chicken stock and 1/2 smoked pork stock -- a magic ingredient.

Since the green onions in the fridge had disintegrated into a slimy mass, I garnished with cilantro -- not traditional but an outstanding addition to the gumbo.

We all decided that we like the gumbo on the thin side (this batch was thinner than my first batch), and we like liquid in the bottom of the bowl!

So, I've got another full meals worth of gumbo in the freezer plus two or three lunch-sized containers for me!

[Mayhaw Man]

Gumbo was on the menu last night.  My kids especially love gumbo.

Chicken thighs (boned and skinned, raw), some local andouille sausage that is very garlicy.  This sausage is not as smokey as I would like, so I used 1/2 chicken stock and 1/2 smoked pork stock -- a magic ingredient.

Since the green onions in the fridge had disintegrated into a slimy mass, I garnished with cilantro -- not traditional but an outstanding addition to the gumbo.

We all decided that we like the gumbo on the thin side (this batch was thinner than my first batch), and we like liquid in the bottom of the bowl!

So, I've got another full meals worth of gumbo in the freezer plus two or three lunch-sized containers for me!

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Thin, but chock full of flavor, is my preference as well.

You have a freezer? Seems kind of silly up there, but I suppose you never know when the temp might reach, say 40F.

[snowangel]

I pulled a container of frozen gumbo off the table on the deck today (the thing was frozen rock solid; seemed like it would have been a weapon.

Leftover gumbo = best fast food ever.

[Varmint]

Boy, I'm glad y'all did this last year. I'm fixin' to make two different gumbos tomorrow: the first a duck, chicken and andouille with the second a crab and shrimp. I'll post pictures when I'm done.

[Chris Amirault]

Recipes, too, I hope, Dean. I'm particularly curious about how you'll prepare the duck in gumbo #1. What andouille do you use?