All dressed up and no place to go?

[JeffWilson]

One of the reasons my wife and I have always enjoyed going out to dinner in NYC, as opposed to some fine NJ restaurant, was the fact that you could get dressed up. But more and more over the years we have found that less people are even wearing a jacket (much less a suit) to dinner. One of the things that we really didn't like about Montrachet was seeing 2 people in polo shirts and khakis...and one in shorts!! I have a problem dropping $300 for dinner for 2 and seeing the guy next to me looking like he is eatingin McDonalds. I am wondering where people like to go for a dressy night out. I can only think of a few restaurants where EVERYONE is dressed nicely...Daniel, Jean Georges, Le Cirque, Bouley (the old one), and Le Bernardin.  Anyone care to add to this list?

Jeff

[jordyn]

Zagat lists a bunch of place where it claims jackets are required.  Sadly, it appears to be rather inaccurate.  In addition to your list, I'd add the following places where formality reins.  I'm pretty sure all of the following still require jackets for men:

Alain Ducasse

Aureole

Cafe Des Artistes

Cello

Four Seasons

La Caravelle

La Cote Basque

La Grenouille

Lespinasse

One If By Land, Two If By Sea

I'm sure there are others.

[Wilfrid]

You're right, Jeff (although, as I've said before, this makes me sound like my father).  We were in Tabla a couple of weeks back, and were appalled at the general standard of dress.  And I still shudder at the sight of the unshaven, uncombed man in docker pants with no socks being shown to a table at March.

I can add some to your list:  San Domenico, Cafe Boulud, Alain Ducasse (obvious, I suppose), Cello.  If you want to dress up for a swanky evening, you could do worse than one of the grand hotels like the Pierre or the Carlyle.  The food is not cutting edge, but is not bad, and in fact I have been meaning to go back to the Carlyle restuarant since the chef from now-defunct Trois Jean took over its kithcen.  Might be good, in a robust French sort of way.

[La Niña]

I cannot begin to tell you how refreshing this is for me to read.  I have spent the last 2 days on "another site" being flamed, called a fascist, compared to the taliban, all because I expressed my dismay at the falling standards of dress in fine restaurants and other venues like the opera, etc.  It got so contentious it's almost unbelievable.

I'd love to hear what this gang thinks about this topic, in general.  What makes a restaurant "upscale?"  Why does the dress/appearance of other patrons affect our enjoyment (it certainly does mine)?

[Wilfrid]

I feel like a turncoat.  I used to believe that one was entitled to dress as sloppily as one liked in any circumstances.  I was gradually over taken by (1) age, (2) love of nice clothes, and most important (3) an interest in the whole restaurant experience, which include restaurants maintaining an appropriate ambience.  Ripped t-shirts are fine for some places - not for Le Cirque.

[jordyn]

Wilfrid, I find your suggestion of Cafe Boulud surprising.  Although I agree that the crowd there is usually shabbily dressed, it's never struck me as being particularly dressy.  The website indicates "casual chic attire suggested; no tie required", and I actually remember reading an article at one point which indicated that Daniel Boulud actually wanted people to dress down when dining at Cafe Boulud.  I vaguely recall some mention of management expressing their delight when the ocassional patron would wear jeans into the place.

To address the topic more broadly, while I can appreciate the dismay that some may feel when they notice other diners in shorts, I also feel like a requirement of a suit or a jacket is rather old fashioned and fussy.  If I wear an elegant shirt and trousers into a restaurant, I can't imagine that this is going to detract significantly from anyone else's dining experience.  I personally find it much more practical and comfortable to dine without a jacket or tie, so while I appreciate the occasional opportunity to get dressed up and really "go out", I'm also a bit resentful of this rather artificial standard of dressed "well enough".

[Wilfrid]

This was discussed on one of the Cafe Boulud threads, but I think the consensus was tht although Daniel indeed encouraged people to approach the Cafe in a relaxed fashion, he was still attracting the moneyed denizens of the Upper east Side in their suits and pearls.

I agree with you that jack and tie is not the only way to be elegant.  When it's cooler, I would certainly wear suitable kinds of polo/turtleneck shirts with a jacket, and I have been known to wear silk shirts just buttoned at the collar.  I have never had a problem with those variations, as I think jacket/tie is in most cases just shorthand for dressing smart.  There are places, though, where you will get wrestled to the floor if you try to take the jacket off.

[Liza]

Just checked out the 'other' board (for the first time in ages, mind you) to see what Nina was writing about and how can I put this....yowza, what a bunch of mean-spirited and personal attacks.

[Beachfan]

To address the topic more broadly, while I can appreciate the dismay that some may feel when they notice other diners in shorts, I also feel like a requirement of a suit or a jacket is rather old fashioned and fussy.  If I wear an elegant shirt and trousers into a restaurant, I can't imagine that this is going to detract significantly from anyone else's dining experience

I support this view.  While I have found that tossing a nice sport jacket on makes almost anything decent, there's something very appealing to eat elegantly in an Aloha shirt and shorts (in the tropics).

In particular, it's the tie I don't enjoy.  And in Tabla, I would think a broad standard would apply, allowing anything that wasn't truly shabby.

[Rail Paul]

Why is it that guys have to wear a jacket, and women can get by with almost nothing? Inquiring minds want to know!

My best guess is guys are more easily intimidated on matters of fashion than women are. If a woman has carefully selected an outfit, nobody in a penguin suit would dare get in the way

[Wilfrid]

(W)omen can get by with almost nothing...

I have read that several times, and can't see a problem with it.  

[tommy]

i'm one of those who prefers not to "dress up" for dinner.  "dressing up" is for the office, funerals, weddings, and other occasions that you'd just as soon avoid.  dinner should be relaxing.  i avoid those places where most are dressed up, so those that might be offended by my khakis and polo shirt don't have to see me!  

[ajay]

i'm one of those who prefers not to "dress up" for dinner.  "dressing up" is for the office, funerals, weddings, and other occasions that you'd just as soon avoid.  dinner should be relaxing.  i avoid those places where most are dressed up, so those that might be offended by my khakis and polo shirt don't have to see me!  

Well said, Tommy.  I agree that coats and ties are for the office funerals and other occasions that I prefer to skip, but can't.  I find both coats and ties restrictive, and a large portion of my meal is dedicated to avoiding spillage on those articles of clothing.  Hence, I often prefer trousers or khakis and a polo shirt, especially when the weather is warm.  

I usually draw the line at shorts, but, I don't question the attire of others, and would appreciate others not questioning my attire.  I don't see how what I wear can affect the quality of someone else's experience.  I believe that people should have the option of dressing as they like (within some very general constraints-- I'd prefer not to see very baggy jeans with boxer shorts hanging out paired with a sports jersey, but if I saw someone wearing such an outfit, I'd probably think of them as a rube or a bumpkin and continue my meal.  THe attire of others doesn't influence the enjoyment of my meal.  Food, service, wine and company of fellow diners are all that influence my meal.

Wilfrid, you are a turncoat .  But, no harm done, I will simply ignore your stares of incredulity when we meet at Bid--if we meet at Bid. (Alas, I will be away for the Ninth ave gourging.)

PS i will also avert my eyes from all of the (gentle?)men who choose to wear silk shirts with "only the collar buttoned."

[stefanyb]

Sometimes its nice to dress up even if it feels less relaxed and some of the focus is on not getting food on yourself.  One can deconstruct most ritual behaviors in a society to the point where they seem ridiculous and unnecessary.  But I have found that they often serve a more subtle but important purpose than one initially realizes.

Restaurant dining is, in many ways, theatre.  Everything adds or subtracts from the atmosphere.  The whole dining experience, often but not always, includes things like how welcomed you are made to feel, the noise level, the music, the lighting etc.

How could anyone think that the attire of the patrons is not an element in all of this?

Granted, not every restaurant experience has or needs all of these elements but many of the ones that people are referring to here are the ones that do.

In other words, your dress affects my restaurant experience and vice versa even if you don't think so.  Appropriateness is key within a very broad definition of appropriateness, of course.  

If you want to eat in shorts and a "wife-beater" well, I'd say choose your venue accordingly.  Thats what I do and I want to dress casually much of the time.

And anyway, there's nothing like tearing apart a lobster in the privacy of your own kitchen wearing a bathrobe.

[Pan]

If you want to eat in shorts and a "wife-beater" well, I'd say choose your venue accordingly.

What is a "wife-beater"??

[stefanyb]

What is a "wife-beater"??

Picture an undershirt, white, often ribbed cotton, with, how can I say this, kind of straps instead of sleeves and a deep u-neck opening.  Now picture someones father in it, with, perhaps, some curley chest hairs sticking out the top.

Oh, also, it goes best with a nice pot belly.

Need I go on?

[La Niña]

Of course the appearance of other patrons affects the experience of others patrons.  Part of what one goes to a fine restaurant for is for the spectacle of it, a particular kind of ambience, and that ambience is made up in part by the appearance and behavior of patrons and staff.  To those people who feel that it's "just about the food and service," I ask - how would you feel if you're spending gobs of money on your meal, in an upscale place, and the wait staff dressed in shorts and t-shirts?  

The problem I see is that those of us who do feel that dressing well in such places is respectful and appropriate are not given the choice of that kind of atmosphere as long as others feel differently.  Hence places with dress codes.

[Rail Paul]

Vaguely, I recall the fashion term "wife-beater" is a late '90s usage reminiscent of the Stanley Kowalski character's wardrobe  in A Streetcar Named Desire. I don't believe it was in use prior to 1998 or so.

It has reliably drawn the ire of feminists, but I won't raise the question of fashon imperatives and feminism in this forum

[robert brown]

Here's another dimension: Do the restaurants that require a jacket allow you to take it off during the meal? If you are as warm-blooded as I am, it really matters vis a vis being comfortable while eating.

[Rachel Perlow]

Even though this started as a NY topic, there may be people in other areas who may find this a worthy discussion, so I am moving this thread to the General Board.

[lizziee]

This has more to do with judging someone by what they are wearing but it seems appropriate here. We went to Nico at 90 a number of years ago , right before Xmas and were escorted to a table, way in the back of the room almost in the men's room. My husband, very unhappy, asked for a better table. "Well, sir this is all we have or one against the wall, also at the back of the room. We took the latter as at least we did not have to have a peek at the men's room all night. Preferential treatment and service was reserved for their known customers and Londoners.

A little later a couple in their 30's were ushered to a table next to ours. Her hair was a lovely shade of different hues of blue, spiked straight in the air, his hair was different shades of orange, also spiked. She had a number of nose rings, earrings and other such things protruding from her face, he had about the same number. They were dressed in early Soho. We, by the way, were dressed for the occasion.

At some point in the meal, my husband did have to go to the bathroom and I am not sure how, but I started a conversation with our neighbors. It turns out that they were both social workers and every year, at this time, celebrate her birthday at a fine dining restaurant. To be able to afford this they save all year long for this one big splurge. Because of their looks and because we were the only "outsiders" we both were being treated rudely. By now, I had gotten used to their appearance and they were really a very interesting couple. Also, I was incensed that they were being treated so badly - here when they had spent a year saving and saving for the experience of a lifetime and they were getting the worst treatment.

By this time we were about to order dessert - it was about midnight. I saw on the menu that I could order a soufflé, but it would take 45 minutes. I said to our waiter that not only would we have the soufflé, but I'd like to buy our neighbors one to celebrate her birthday.

We left the restaurant after 1:30 am with the entire tuxedoed staff standing in the main dining room "with looks that could kill." It definitely was worth it.

I must say, in spite of the above, that I appreciate people dressing for the occasion.

[stefanyb]

Vaguely, I recall the fashion term "wife-beater" is a late '90s usage reminiscent of the Stanley Kowalski character's wardrobe  in A Streetcar Named Desire. I don't believe it was in use prior to 1998 or so.

It has reliably drawn the ire of feminists, but I won't raise the question of fashon imperatives and feminism in this forum

I would consider myself a feminist and have since my college years but my take on "wife-beater" is more anti-male  and anti-working class in that it assumes a man in this variety of shirt is automatically a wife abuser.  Nonetheless, I think its a funny descriptive.  Having a sense of humor and a political/social opinion are not mutually exclusive, for me at least.

[jaybee]

We left the restaurant after 1:30 am with the entire tuxedoed staff standing in the main dining room "with looks that could kill." It definitely was worth it. I must say, in spite of the above, that I appreciate people dressing for the occasion.

Way to go Lizziee.  A great "revenge" story.  I do think how people dress has an impact on the overall feeling and ambiance of a place, so it is an issue.  Yet short of banning shorts and "beach wear" and requiring jackets for men, it's hard to figure out any other control.  I very much resent having to wear a tie, but I want the option to be mine.  Awful looking clothes on patrons is like graffiti or bad art on the walls.  There's not much one can do except not go back if the overall experience isn't worth it.  If people do not wish to be influenced by social convention, our society, thankfully, allows that.  

I am bothered much more by *very* loud talking, laughing at extremely high volume levels by groups of, usually, quite young women and "frat guys" in otherwise sedate restaurants.  I've been seated next to tables full of screaming, shreiking and yelling people, each seeming to try to outdo the other in volume.  It isn't fun.

[Rail Paul]

....but I won't raise the question of fashon imperatives and feminism in this forum

I would consider myself a feminist and have since my college years ...Nonetheless, I think its a funny descriptive.  Having a sense of humor and a political/social opinion are not mutually exclusive, for me at least

Touche!

The Times had an exchange on the use of this term back in more pleasant times, divided between the predictable positions.

My original direction was the acceptance by many women of "fashion imperatives" which deliver painful shoes, uncomfortable clothing, and, in some cases, very careful positioning when seating or changing positions. If I was a maitre'd, I'd be very hesitant about challenging any woman's choice of attire

[Wilfrid]

Lest anyone have nightmares, I should clarify that when I talked about just buttoning the collar of my silk shirt, I meant not wearing a tie.  I didn't mean the other buttons were undone.  Shudder.